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the croucher said:
An article on AFL website in July 2010 still acknowledges Fitzroy as wooden spooner in 1916:
http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/97505/default.aspx
Click to expand...

Good find.

What is given is the traditional account of the 1916 Premiership. Fitzroy having "struck form" in the finals is common to most published accounts.

I suspect there is some disjunction between two of the authors of the article, Col Hutchinson and Stephen Rodgers who have input into the League's history and records committee and the AFL Record.
 
Between 1927 and 1930, Collingwood lost only to:

  1. Richmond in 1927, 1928 and 1929
  2. Carlton in 1927, 1928 and 1930
  3. Fitzroy in 1927 and 1930
  4. Geelong twice in 1930
Their next loss to any other side was to Essendon in Round 10 of 1931 and then to St. Kilda in Round 17 of that year in an amazing match. In 1932 Collingwood lost only to Geelong and Carlton.

Losing to only four of the other eleven clubs in four years would, even as a percentage, be a feat that rivals Geelong's in recent years, even though they have had only one loss to numerous clubs.
 
mianfei said:
Losing to only four of the other eleven clubs in four years would, even as a percentage, be a feat that rivals Geelong's in recent years, even though they have had only one loss to numerous clubs.
Click to expand...

That is indeed a record low over a four-year period. Carlton 1932-35 lost to five opponents, and are the only club to do so in a 10-club-minimum era.
 

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Ron The Bear said:
That is indeed a record low over a four-year period. Carlton 1932-35 lost to five opponents, and are the only club to do so in a 10-club-minimum era.
Click to expand...
What's even more amazing is that, with the exception of South Melbourne in the latter case, the teams lost to are the same.

Collingwood between 1927 and 1930 and Carlton between 1932 and 1935 did not lose to Melbourne, Essendon, St. Kilda, Footscray, North Melbourne or Hawthorn. Carlton in 1935 did draw with Footscray owing to appalling inaccuracy (9-25 to 12-7), but neither club lost to Hawthorn in that club's first fourteen years in the VFL, and it is probable Collingwood would have not lost to Hawthorn in that club's first thirty years but for the loss of so many players due to the war (or at all in fact but for the VFL's desperate desire in the 1950s to make Hawthorn and St. Kilda competitive via direct financial aid). In fact, Hawthorn did not get within seven points of Collingwood in the two clubs' first forty-six peacetime meetings.
 
Some Infrequent Events:


  • Although Sydney/SM have kept Carlton goalless in the first quarter on 23 occasions, they have only done it three times in the last 87 seasons – the most recent being in round 5 of 1976.

  • Collingwood has been goalless in the last quarter 168 times – most recently in the 2011 Grand Final. Only two of those occasions have been against Hawthorn – round 14, 1970 and Round 19, 1985.

  • Richmond have played 100 round 12s. They have met Melbourne 16 times in round 12 but Geelong only twice – 1918 and 1999.

  • Collingwood have played 86 matches on Monday – 24 have been against Melbourne – only 2 have been against WB/Footscray – round 12, 1982 and round 1 2005.

  • WB/Footscray have played 63 Friday night matches meeting Essendon 12 times, but never Carlton.

  • In 87 seasons WB/Footscray has come from 24 or more points down at ¾ time to win the match on 11 occasions. In the same time Hawthorn has only done it twice – round 5, 1954 v Geelong (24 pts down - won by 5), round 2 1956 v Richmond (25 pts down – won by 21)
 
Most consecutive games of exactly x goals, with starting point of sequence:

Code: 
 G Gms Player                Club(s)       Career  Year Rd
----------------------------------------------------------
 0 219 Dibbs, Charlie        Co,Ge       1924-1936 1924 11
 1   9 Higgins, Shaun        WB          2006-2011 2009 PF
 2   8 Romero, Jose          NM,WB       1988-2001 1990 14
 3   5 Clover, Horrie        Ca          1920-1931 1928 18
       Young, Bill D.        St          1956-1961 1960  4
       Payne, Charlie        Es          1962-1972 1962  3
       Schwarz, David        Me          1991-2002 1994  6
 4   4 Titus, Jack           Ri          1926-1943 1930  4
       Stackpole, Keith      Co,Fi       1935-1944 1943  3
       McDonald, Ron         Ri          1955-1960 1955  4
       Richardson, Matthew   Ri          1993-2009 1998  9
       Lloyd, Matthew        Es          1995-2009 2000 PF
 5   3 Lynch, Dave           Ri          1922-1929 1926 14
       Reynolds, Tom         Es,St       1937-1945 1939  4
       Pratt, Bob            Sy          1930-1946 1939 14
       White, Lindsay        Ge,Sy,Ge    1941-1950 1941  3
       Loxton, Sam           St          1942-1946 1944 16
       Howell, Jack E.       Ca          1942-1954 1949  6
       Hunt, Rex             Ri,Ge,St    1968-1978 1969  3
       McKenna, Peter        Co,Ca       1965-1977 1969 16
       Hudson, Peter         Ha          1967-1977 1971  9
       Wade, Doug            Ge,NM       1961-1975 1974  4
       Walls, Robert         Ca,Fi       1967-1980 1976 17
       McKenna, Peter        Co,Ca       1965-1977 1977  3
       Ablett senior, Gary   Ha,Ge       1982-1996 1985 20
       Lockett, Tony         St,Sy       1983-2002 1995 14
       Bradshaw, Daniel      Br,Sy       1996-2010 2001 13
       Hall, Barry           St,Sy,WB    1996-2011 2011 17
 6   3 Coventry, Gordon      Co          1920-1937 1930 15
       Vallence, Harry       Ca          1926-1938 1932  1
       Titus, Jack           Ri          1926-1943 1934  5
       Mohr, Bill            St          1929-1941 1936  8
       Todd, Ron             Co          1935-1939 1939  5
       Hart, Eddie           Fi          1941-1951 1949 10
       Clarke, Noel          Me          1951-1955 1951 16
       Hudson, Peter         Ha          1967-1977 1969 17
       Moncrieff, Michael    Ha          1971-1983 1973 18
       Young, George Albert  St          1973-1978 1977  5
       Daicos, Peter         Co          1979-1993 1981  1
       Brereton, Dermott     Ha,Sy,Co    1982-1995 1987  8
       Ablett senior, Gary   Ha,Ge       1982-1996 1994 23
       Ablett senior, Gary   Ha,Ge       1982-1996 1995 14
       Modra, Tony           Ad,Fr       1992-2001 1999  6
       Brown, Jonathan       Br          2000-2011 2008  8
 7   4 Wade, Doug            Ge,NM       1961-1975 1969  6
 8   2 Moriarty, Jack        Es,Fi       1922-1933 1924 16
       Coventry, Gordon      Co          1920-1937 1936  2
       Mohr, Bill            St          1929-1941 1936 12
       Collins, Jack Charles WB          1950-1958 1955  1
       Hudson, Peter         Ha          1967-1977 1968  2
       Hudson, Peter         Ha          1967-1977 1969 20
       McKenna, Peter        Co,Ca       1965-1977 1972 22
       Hudson, Peter         Ha          1967-1977 1972  1
       Hudson, Peter         Ha          1967-1977 1977 10
       Davis, Craig          Ca,NM,Co,Sy 1973-1988 1979  8
       Moncrieff, Michael    Ha          1971-1983 1980 16
       Lockett, Tony         St,Sy       1983-2002 1987 18
       Osborne, Richard      Fi,Sy,WB,Co 1982-1998 1988  9
       Bennett, Darren       WC,Me       1987-1993 1990  1
       Daicos, Peter         Co          1979-1993 1991 18
       Minton-Connell, Simon Ca,Sy,Ha,WB 1989-1998 1993 19
       Loewe, Stewart        St          1986-2002 1996  4
 9   2 Fanning, Fred         Me          1940-1947 1947  4
       White, Lindsay        Ge,Sy,Ge    1941-1950 1947 17
       Hudson, Peter         Ha          1967-1977 1969 15
       McKenna, Peter        Co,Ca       1965-1977 1970 18
       McKenna, Peter        Co,Ca       1965-1977 1970 22
       McKenna, Peter        Co,Ca       1965-1977 1972 19
11   2 Pratt, Bob            Sy          1930-1946 1934 13
 
Last time with no goals in second and third quarters

Last time each team was goalless in Q2 and Q3:
  • Adelaide: NEVER
  • Brisbane: Round 11, 1989 v Richmond
  • Carlton: Round 22, 2006 v Sydney
  • Collingwood: Round 21, 1997 v Adelaide
  • Essendon: Round 4, 1999 v West Coast
  • Fitzroy: Round 7, 1971 v St. Kilda
    • highest score by team goalless in Q2 and Q3 of 11-16 (82)
  • Footscray/Western Bulldogs: Round 21, 2003 v St. Kilda
  • Fremantle: NEVER
  • Geelong: Round 22, 2001 v Carlton
  • Gold Coast: NEVER
  • Hawthorn: Round 13, 1953 v St. Kilda
    • two in 1953
    • none since
    • six overall: the others in 1925, 1927, 1950 and 1952
      • in the 1952 case Hawthorn lost by just one point
  • Melbourne: Round 13, 2009 v Brisbane
  • North Melbourne: Round 21, 2006 v Hawthorn
  • Port Adelaide: NEVER
  • Richmond: Round 13, 2009 v St. Kilda
  • St. Kilda: Round 12, 1988 v Collingwood
    • Collingwood conceded just two goals in almost seven quarters of football before Craig Potter goaled with two minutes to go the following week
  • Sydney/South Melbourne: Round 1, 2009 v St. Kilda
  • University: Round 4, 1912 v St. Kilda
    • one of only two
  • West Coast: Round 21, 2006 v Fremantle
    • one of only two, both in premiership years
    • both in the penultimate round
It is amazing that the two most recent cases by any team were in the same round, and that the last case by two other teams was also in the same round with just two cases in between!
 
Re: Last time with no goals in second and third quarters

Me again, this time breaking down the 255 100 point wins.

For.

Geelong 32
Collingwood 27
Essendon 27
Carlton 26
Hawthorn 22
North Melbourne 17
South Melbourne/Sydney 17
Richmond 16
St Kilda 14
Melbourne 13
West Coast 10
Brisbane 9
Fitzroy 9
Footscray 8
Adelaide 6
Port Adelaide 2
Fremantle 1

Against.

St Kilda 37
Melbourne 22
North Melbourne 21
Richmond 20
Fitzroy 19
Footscray 18
Hawthorn 18
Brisbane 15
South Melbourne/Sydney 14
Carlton 11
Geelong 11
Essendon 10
Adelaide 9
West Coast 8
Collingwood 7
Fremantle 7
Port Adelaide 4
Gold Coast 3.
 
Re: Last time with no goals in second and third quarters

RedmanWasHere said:
Me again, this time breaking down the 255 100 point wins.

For.

Geelong 32
Collingwood 27
Essendon 27
Carlton 26
Hawthorn 22
North Melbourne 17
South Melbourne/Sydney 17
Richmond 16
St Kilda 14
Melbourne 13
West Coast 10
Brisbane 9
Fitzroy 9
Footscray 8
Adelaide 6
Port Adelaide 2
Fremantle 1

Against.

St Kilda 37
Melbourne 22
North Melbourne 21
Richmond 20
Fitzroy 19
Footscray 18
Hawthorn 18
Brisbane 15
South Melbourne/Sydney 14
Carlton 11
Geelong 11
Essendon 10
Adelaide 9
West Coast 8
Collingwood 7
Fremantle 7
Port Adelaide 4
Gold Coast 3.
Click to expand...

There's been 256 of these.

Here are both tables (with a few more corrections) showing 100 point
wins and losses as a percentage of matches played.

http://www.rogersresults.110mb.com/Rogers_Results/temp2.htm
 

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Re: Last time with no goals in second and third quarters

Ron The Bear said:
Very sobering. When I started going to the footy, we had 2.
Click to expand...
In fact, between 1945 and 1959 Richmond were the only team who had never lost by 100 points, and again had the (equal) fewest losses by such margins between Round 11, 1983 and Round 13, 1984. It reflects of course how rich Richmond were in the 1930s and 1940s, and how badly the clubs has managed its money since.
 
Re: Last time with no goals in second and third quarters

mianfei said:
In fact, between 1945 and 1959 Richmond were the only team without a loss by 100 points
Click to expand...

1945-1959 : 15 losses by 100 points or more:

Carlton 1 - biggest loss 100
Collingwood 0 - biggest loss 95
Essendon 0 - biggest loss 95
Fitzroy 0 - biggest loss 91
Footscray 0 - biggest loss 82
Geelong 0 - biggest loss 97
Hawthorn 4 - biggest loss 112
Melbourne 1 - biggest loss 103
Nth Melbourne 1 - biggest loss 120
Richmond 0 - biggest loss 79
St Kilda 6 - biggest loss 134
Sth Melbourne 2 - biggest loss 105
 

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Re: Last time with no goals in second and third quarters

mianfei said:
In fact, between 1945 and 1959 Richmond were the only team without a loss by 100 points, and again had the (equal) fewest losses by such margins between Round 11, 1983 and Round 13, 1984. It reflects of course how rich Richmond were in the 1930s and 1940s, and how badly the clubs has managed its money since.
Click to expand...

Perhaps Richmond was wealthy in relation to other clubs, but that's not the impression I've gained over the years. The revered property steward, Charlie Callander, served the club non-stop for 60 years without pay.

"I know they call me a mean old mongrel because they reckon I'm tight. They've said I'd grab a chunk of secondhand chewy from under a table rather than give them a fresh bit.

If you look after your socks they should last a player a lifetime. There's always a girl who will darn a sock for a bloke.

They won't go broke because of me."

What power Charlie had in those days. He took charge of all equipment from footballs to medical supplies and they weren't big on medicine in those days. A needle would be used so often it would have to be punched into the skin with a hammer. That taught players to live with their injuries.
Click to expand...

- Tigerland, by Brian Hansen
 
Re: Last time with no goals in second and third quarters

Ron The Bear said:
Perhaps Richmond was wealthy in relation to other clubs, but that's not the impression I've gained over the years. The revered property steward, Charlie Callander, served the club non-stop for 60 years without pay.
- Tigerland, by Brian Hansen
Click to expand...

Every club had their loyal and tireless "Charlies". It was rare for any support officials from the secretary to the boot-studder to get paid anything except sometimes out-off pocket expenses. When George Cathie (first editor of the Football Record) was one of Geelong's delegates to the League from the late 1930's into the 1940's he was living in Hawthorn and was honourary (unpaid) treasurer of the League. Minutes of the Geelong FC of the time record offerings of travel expenses when Cathie attended meetings in Geelong which he always refused.

I doubt Richmond was ever particularly rich in its time at Punt Rd Oval - when phone calls were one penny, the cricket club charged the football club two pennies a call! :)

What Richmond may have had was a higher proportion of young men of suitable football age in their district recruiting zone. Wartime shortages of players point to this. In 1942 when Melbourne couldn't get enough players to mount an intra-club practice match and Collingwood didn't think that they would be able to field a reserves side there was talk of the two merging in order to stay in the competition. Richmond on the other hand in 1942 had enough players for two separate intra-club practice matches to be staged with more hopefuls standing by.

The war years were a boom-time for the Tigers - 4 grand finals and a flag. After the war they only made the finals once (1947) until as co-tennants at the MCG they won the 1967 premiership.
 
How wealthy Richmond were in the 1930s

RogersResults said:
I doubt Richmond was ever particularly rich in its time at Punt Rd Oval - when phone calls were one penny, the cricket club charged the football club two pennies a call!
Click to expand...
In the classic Up Where Cazaly and Ross Booth's history of player recruitment in the VFL/AFL, it is pointed out that whereas clubs like Hawthorn and St. Kilda could not pay the sum allowed by the Coulter Law, Richmond did pay more than this frequently:
Not all VFL clubs were able to pay the maximum of £3 per player (which increased in time with the cost of living), but some clubs were able to (and did) pay above the maximum. Dyer received from Richmond supporters twice as much again as he earned from the Coulter payment...
Click to expand...
As for Richmond's general wealth in the 1930s, Up Where Cazaly says:
Only Carlton, Collingwood and Richmond were in strong financial position during the 1930s. They had the backing of generous local patrons (John Wren was a well-known Collingwood patron and committee member), they had the largest memberships of season ticket holders, and they attracted the biggest crowds and therefore benefited most from gate takings. They were rarely out of the finals during this time. Other clubs were locked into a downward spiral. St. Kilda, Footscray, North Melbourne and Hawthorn in particular, could not recruit good players because of lack of finance.
Click to expand...
If this is at all correct, Richmond was a very wealthy club, at least by the VFL's standards, in the 1930s. I had assumed that they, along with Carlton, suffered the least from the war because these two clubs were willing and able to pay their players more than anyone else. Richmond were out of the finals only twice between 1927 and 1939 and overall won 166 and drew three of 234 home-and-away games - a success rate comparable to Hawthorn in the 1980s.
 
Re: How wealthy Richmond were in the 1930s

mianfei said:
In the classic Up Where Cazaly and Ross Booth's history of player recruitment in the VFL/AFL, it is pointed out that whereas clubs like Hawthorn and St. Kilda could not pay the sum allowed by the Coulter Law, Richmond did pay more than this frequently:As for Richmond's general wealth in the 1930s, Up Where Cazaly says:If this is at all correct, Richmond was a very wealthy club, at least by the VFL's standards, in the 1930s. I had assumed that they, along with Carlton, suffered the least from the war because these two clubs were willing and able to pay their players more than anyone else. Richmond were out of the finals only twice between 1927 and 1939 and overall won 166 and drew three of 234 home-and-away games - a success rate comparable to Hawthorn in the 1980s.
Click to expand...

Leaving aside the joke about Richmond having to pay the cricket club an extra penny for phone calls (although the Football Record reports it as true), determining actual "wealth" is difficult. There were always rumours of more money around for players than what was legal but there is no way to quantify it. Richmond's annual report for the 1934 season states that they began the season with $7.80 in the bank and finished the year with $136.00 credit - not enough to pay the players for two matches. So at best we can talk about relative "wealth" between clubs even then Turner and Sandercock may some sweeping assumptions in "Up Where Cazaly". (They ignore for example Geelong's relative success between the wars.)

There was not that much money in VFL football, full-stop. If the VFL clubs were paying their stars big money 'on the side' in the 1930's in breach of League rules, why did the likes of Pratt (Sth Melb), Todd (Collingwood) and Valence (Carlton) defect to the VFA when the VFA abolished any cap on player payments?

Geelong which usually limped along with a bank overdraft each season 1925-1939 ($2,100 deficit in 1932) won approximately only 2.5% to 3.5% fewer matches than Carlton and Richmond and won 3 premierships to Richmond's 2 and Carlton's 1. "Wealthy" Carlton managed 1 premiership in 29 seasons 1916-1944. Then what happened to the 'big three's' "wealth" advantage for the 20 years after WWII? Collingwood's two premierships the only ones between the three of them.

The other thing to note is that from district recruiting zones being enforced after WWI, the majority of players in each club were from their club's local district up into the 1950's. For example 75.0 % of Essendon's 1951 and Collingwood's 1952 Grand Final squads were recruited from their suburban Melbourne districts. (Essendon had one interstate recruit; Collingwood none.) Why would you pay players bound to you that much more above the amount stipulated by the League? (Traditionally Collingwood payed all players the same with supporters rewarding success on occasion with gifts of money.)

Real money enters the game later with players from interstate becoming more willing to relocate (Farmer and Marshall to Geelong being examples in the early 60's) and the abandonment of the 'Coulter law' and exclusive recruiting zones.

I think the make-up of the allocated recruiting zones may do more to explain relative success from the 20's to the 50's than Jack Dyer getting three extra quid a match or John Wren distributing $200 to be shared amongst the players after a win against Essendon in 1951. That and individual club cultures and the calibre and personalities of administrative, training and coaching staff.

Footnote: Another clue to Richmond perhaps having a greater pool of football playing age young men in their zone is the fact that before Collingwood fielded a thirds (under 19) team, the competition numbers were temporarily made up by having two Richmond teams in the competition.
 
Re: How wealthy Richmond were in the 1930s

At the end of last season Jack Trengove played 37 career games for 21 goals.

37 - 21 = 16 (Jack Grimes' number.)

37 is also Max Gawn's number and he's sidelined for the rest of the season.

Gawn, for the record, was drafted in the same year as Trengove.

Trenners' birthdate and birth month are the 2/9 and if you reverse those numbers and take out the slash, you get 92.

I mentioned a few pages before this that Dean Bailey was delisted at the end of '92 and Todd Viney kicked 92 goals for Melbourne.

Coach Mark Neeld and reigning Melbourne B&F winner Brent Moloney both started their playing careers at Geelong.

At Geelong, Neeldy wore the No. 22, Beamers' current number for Melbourne.

Bails was screwed from the get go.
 

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