Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
I like when the old Records call forwards "kickists" and "bootists".
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Stats observations
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Last time each team was goalless at half time:
It's notable that there are only fifteen games in the list, rather than sixteen, because no goals were scored in the first half of the Footscray versus Essendon game in 1984. In fact, the last two times Essendon were goalless at half time, they also failed to concede a goal. The last time Essendon were goalless at half time but had conceded a goal was as far back as Round Nine of 1956, when they had kicked 0-7 (7) to Melbourne's 9-10 (64) and went on to lose 4-15 (39) to 15-17 (107) in the only season between 1940 and 1969 where Essendon conceded more points than it scored.
The last time Footscray were goalless at half-time but had conceded a goal was Round 6, 1982 against Geelong at Kardinia Park, when the Bulldogs had kicked 0-11 (11) to Geelong’s 5-10 (40).
The last time Geelong were goalless at half time was of course the infamous 1977 Princes Park match where only five goals twenty-five was kicked, with not one goal into the wind all day. Carlton actually dominated the second quarter and who knows what would have happened had they managed even one goal into the wind? Although Geelong have the longest run of matches kicking a goal in the first half, they and Footscray are the only teams on that list to remain goalless at three-quarter time.
- Adelaide: Round 18, 2004 v North Melbourne
- Brisbane: Round 12, 2007 v Geelong
- Carlton: Round 9, 2009 v Adelaide
- Collingwood: Round 15, 2005 v Brisbane
- Essendon: Round 17, 1984 v Footscray
- Fitzroy: Round 1, 1995 v Essendon
- Footscray/Western Bulldogs: Round 17, 1984 v Essendon
- Fremantle: Round 15, 2009 v Adelaide
- Geelong: Round 12, 1977 v Carlton
- Hawthorn: Round 14, 2009 v Western Bulldogs
- Melbourne: Round 4, 2009 v Adelaide
- North Melbourne: Round 12, 1979 v Essendon
- Richmond: Round 18, 1996 v Brisbane
- St. Kilda: Round 14, 1987 v Geelong
- Sydney: Round 21, 1997 v Carlton
- West Coast: Round 5, 2004 v Carlton
It's notable that there are only fifteen games in the list, rather than sixteen, because no goals were scored in the first half of the Footscray versus Essendon game in 1984. In fact, the last two times Essendon were goalless at half time, they also failed to concede a goal. The last time Essendon were goalless at half time but had conceded a goal was as far back as Round Nine of 1956, when they had kicked 0-7 (7) to Melbourne's 9-10 (64) and went on to lose 4-15 (39) to 15-17 (107) in the only season between 1940 and 1969 where Essendon conceded more points than it scored.
The last time Footscray were goalless at half-time but had conceded a goal was Round 6, 1982 against Geelong at Kardinia Park, when the Bulldogs had kicked 0-11 (11) to Geelong’s 5-10 (40).
The last time Geelong were goalless at half time was of course the infamous 1977 Princes Park match where only five goals twenty-five was kicked, with not one goal into the wind all day. Carlton actually dominated the second quarter and who knows what would have happened had they managed even one goal into the wind? Although Geelong have the longest run of matches kicking a goal in the first half, they and Footscray are the only teams on that list to remain goalless at three-quarter time.
I am interested in further confirmation of this. When I copied the figures from The Sporting Globe, I only took note of each team's win-loss record. This is the info I have:
Collingwood 14-2
Fitzroy 13-3
St.Kilda 12-3-1 draw
South Melbourne 11-5
Essendon 11-5
North Melbourne 8-5-3 draws
Carlton 6-9-1 draw
Geelong 6-10
Richmond 4-12
Footscray 3-12-1 draw
Hawthorn 3-13
Melbourne 2-14
As you may be aware, when you add all the numbers in the Won column, and then in the Lost column, they must equal the same total. The same applies when you add all the numbers in the Points For and Points Against columns. My figures add up to 93 in both the Won and Lost columns. I have not been able to look at the 1956 VFL records online, the link was not working earlier today when I tried. I would be interested in any figures you have obtained from this source, or from any other sources. I would be happy to change my figures if other sources also give Fitzroy the minor premiership, as long as all the numbers add up.
The Football Record was accessible a minute ago. Win/Loss/Draw is the same as you have from the Sporting Globe except that Fitzroy is on top on equal wins with Collingwood.
The Argus and the Age didn't publish third 18 ladders so they can't be cross-checked.
Although the Football Record was not yet the "official organ" of the League it took some responsibility in keeping the League's records correctly. I'd go with it especially as it would have the later publication date with some more time to check than the Sporting Globe. (Plus the Sporting Globe ladder has 94 wins and 92 losses - the Football Record had 93 each.)
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Thanks for this response. Perhaps my memory is a bit hazy. I'm quite sure I used The Sporting Globe for my info. Any knowledge as to whether The Sun or The Herald published Under 19s ladders?
No I don't but at the time I think they probably left them to the Football Record.
I went through Monday's Age from 1956 and tallied the following results, with a couple of loose ends:
Code:
The Age individual matches Football Record
Fi 16 13 3 0 52 878 565 155.40 13 3 0 52 880 539 163.3
Co 16 13 3 0 52 913 623 146.55 13 3 0 52 943 681 138.5
St 16 12 3 1 50 859 655 131.15 12 3 1 50 888 679 130.8
SM 16 12 4 0 48 [COLOR="blue"]1111 661[/COLOR] 168.08 12 4 0 48 1111 661 168.1
----------------------------------------------------------
Es 16 11 5 0 44 [COLOR="blue"]934 724[/COLOR] 129.01 11 5 0 44 934 724 129.0
NM 16 8 5 3 38 [COLOR="blue"]842 668[/COLOR] 126.05 8 5 3 38 842 668 126.0
Ca 16 6 9 1 26 [COLOR="blue"]681[/COLOR] 753 90.44 6 9 1 26 681 749 90.9
Ge 16 6 10 0 24 [COLOR="blue"]640 951[/COLOR] 67.30 6 10 0 24 640 951 67.3
Ri 16 4 12 0 16 [COLOR="blue"]611 908[/COLOR] 67.29 4 12 0 16 611 908 67.3
Fo 16 3 12 1 14 [COLOR="Blue"]569[/COLOR] 795 71.57 3 12 1 14 569 803 70.9
Ha 16 3 13 0 12 632 955 66.18 3 13 0 12 635 959 66.2
Me 16 2 14 0 8 [COLOR="Blue"]555 967[/COLOR] 57.39 2 14 0 8 555 967 57.4- South Melbourne's winning score against Richmond in Round 8 was missing, which would affect both clubs' percentages
- a few (three or four) of the scores were difficult to decipher, so I made an educated guess at the numbers. I think in all cases this only affected behinds, so would have at most a minor effect on the above percentages
- the August 6 (last round for the thirds) edition listed the final four after the scores as: Fitzroy 52, Collingwood 52, St.Kilda 50, South Melbourne 48 (i.e. as above)
Edit: noticed that Fitzroy & Collingwood's points for & ag are a long way out from the Football Record's numbers, so the percentages I've listed are probably worthless. However, in all cases The Age listed the winning team first, and I'm confident that I've transcribed the printed results accurately. The difference in W-L numbers to the Globe comes down to the Round 13 match in which The Age says South Melbourne 11.16 d. Collingwood 2.6, i.e. one extra win for South and one less for Collingwood. The Age also has Collingwood losing to Fitzroy in Round 9 and Essendon in Round 11.
It appears South's score against Richmond's 2.12 was 63, that being the difference between my points for for South, and points against for Richmond. Have adjusted those entries accordingly.
NB Cross-checking of scores/ladder updates continuing...
Almost none of those for and against figures tally with those for the final ladder in the Football Record??
Last time each team was goalless at three-quarter time (except University):
- Adelaide: NEVER
- Brisbane: NEVER
- Carlton: Round 11, 1991 v Footscray
- Collingwood: Round 3, 1901 v South Melbourne
- Essendon: Round 10, 1923 v St. Kilda
- Fitzroy: Round 5, 1953 v Footscray
- Footscray/Western Bulldogs: Round 17, 1984 v Essendon
- Fremantle: NEVER
- Geelong: Round 12, 1977 v Carlton
- Gold Coast: NEVER (never goalless at half-time)
- Hawthorn: Round 17, 1927 v Melbourne
- Melbourne: Round 12, 1912 v South Melbourne
- North Melbourne: Round 4, 1947 v Fitzroy
- Port Adelaide: NEVER (never goalless at half-time)
- Richmond: Round 16, 1961 v St. Kilda
- St. Kilda: Round 19, 1979 v Carlton
- South Melbourne/Sydney: Round 16, 1964 v Geelong
- West Coast: Round 23, 1992 v Footscray
- Since the VFL began, sixty-two teams have been goalless at three-quarter-time, yet thirty-eight, or 61.29 percent, have goaled in the last quarter
- of the teams in that list, only Melbourne and Richmond actually finished the last quarter without a goal
- Melbourne has the best record of remaining goalless: of nine games where Melbourne was goalless at three-quarter time it finished five without a major score
- the most recent case by West Coast in 1992 is one of only two by an eventual premier side
- the other case by an eventual premier side is one of only two cases - both in the first three years - where a team won after being goalless at three-quarter time, and both were by Essendon against South Melbourne!
- the North Melbourne and Footscray cases are the only ones since those teams entered the VFL/AFL in 1925
- at the MCG, there were two cases in the last four games there in 1927 but not one in the last eighty-four years
I reckon there are four typo's in the weekly Football Record thirds scores for 1956 - two where it's a goal short and two more where it's a behind short. The changes from week to week in for & against on the ladder (which differ from the FR scores but are consistent with the scores reported in The Age) support this. (The Age also had some typo's of its own, for example confusing the matchups in three Round 1 games.)
The other problem I ran into was The Age's reporting of the first half of the split round on June 16. The online edition of the FR doesn't carry these scores, and The Age mixed up the Collingwood v St.Kilda seconds & thirds match scores, which threw my compiled ladder wildly out.
After all that, I support Rogers' contention that the final FR ladder is likely correct in terms of official for & against, and almost certainly correct regarding W-L-D tallies and Fitzroy being the minor premier.
The other problem I ran into was The Age's reporting of the first half of the split round on June 16. The online edition of the FR doesn't carry these scores, and The Age mixed up the Collingwood v St.Kilda seconds & thirds match scores, which threw my compiled ladder wildly out.
After all that, I support Rogers' contention that the final FR ladder is likely correct in terms of official for & against, and almost certainly correct regarding W-L-D tallies and Fitzroy being the minor premier.
Agree, see edit.
Comparison of Round 15 results shows what I'm up against.
There was a time when there were two Richmond teams in the Thirds. Maybe one came back to substitute for Footscray in that round?
A few additions:
Eventual Premiers goalless at 3/4 time:
Essendon 1897 round 6, 0.11 v Sth Melb
Fitzroy 1898 round 7, 0.7 v Sth Melb.
Essendon 1901 round 1, 0.10 v Collingwood
Essendon 1923 round 10, 0.8 v St Kilda
West Coast 1992 round 23, 0.2 v Footscray (I wonder what Malthouse said at 3/4 time?)
(Eventual wooden-spooners have been goalless at 3/4 time, 14 times.
The most recent being St Kilda in 1979.)
And in case anyone was wondering, University was goalless once at 3/4 time, round 16 1911 0.3 v Collingwood (Final score 0.9 v 14.14)
I forgot those! The 1923 game was actually just an amazing defensive display by St. Kilda: the weather was not wet at all though it was the wettest winter on record in northwestern Victoria. With hindsight, it was probably a better effort than keeping Richmond to 0-8 thirty-eight years later since that game was played on a very windy if dry and warm day where Richmond's terrible lack of speed and marking power made it very vulnerable. I actually even recognise the 1898 and 1901 cases as well: 1-15 is the most behinds by a team kicking one goal.
I cannot imagine what he said - I have the game on DVD and there was no discussion. It's pretty obvious to me and would be for you should you buy it at the February 9 Name A Game sale, that if the Eagles had had Peter Sumich who was a late withdrawal after they doubted whether to risk him in the expectations of mild, dry weather (as did occur on the previous day) they would have kicked three goals into the breeze which they lost through Footscray's quicker reactions and greater physical strength. The Eagles lost the game at the selection table when they picked a forward line of lightly built high-flyers on a ground so heavy that they got no leap at all and sat passively behind a seemingly impregnable Footscray wall without trying to contest. The Eagles were not nearly so unadaptable to wet weather as that game would suggest: they were earlier that year regularly winning games on wet grounds against Adelaide, North Melbourne and Hawthorn, and led Collingwood in heavy rain before being thwarted as Subiaco dried out.
That's a perfect record of remining goalless, though with very few games. University were goalless at 1/2 time in four of their 126 games, and 237 teams (in 233 matches) have been goalless at half time since the VFL began in 1897, though only 99 have occurred since 1919.
The first season where no team was goalless at half time was 1916; subsequent years have been 1929, 1930, 1932, 1935, 1937, 1938, 1940 to 1942, 1944, 1945, 1949, 1954, 1960, 1966, 1969 to 1971, 1974, 1976, 1978, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1990, 1998 to 2001, 2003, 2006, 2008, 2010 and 2011.
- In 2011 15.31% of all wins were by Victorian teams in in NSW, QLD, SA or WA.
- In 2003 2.7% of all wins were by Victorian teams in in NSW, QLD, SA or WA.
- In 2011 5.1% of wins were by 100 points or more, the 2nd highest percentage in any season.
- In 2011 53% of matches were played a night or twilight - the highest percentage in a season so far.
- In 2011 10.2% of last quarters were won by 6 goals or more - the highest percentage since 1991.
- In 2011 16.84% of attendances were under 20,000 - the highest percentage since 1997.
More Here:
The Hradec Kralove fixtures at Skoda Stadium should do the trick.
1997 percentage of attendances under 20,000 - 17.3%
(It was 60% in 1989.)
Having surveyed the 1956 Under 19s ladder on the VFL Records online link, and seeing as the wins and losses add up, as well as the for and against columns, here is a corrected version of the minor premierships table I posted on January 13. It now includes one less for Collingwood and one extra for Fitzroy, and also for Melbourne, the Under 19s first minor premier in 1946..
Complete total of minor premierships across all three grades.
Club. . . .SeniorsReservesUnder 19s TOTAL
Essendon . . . 17 . . 8 . . . 6 . . . . 31
Geelong . . . .13 . .13 . . . 4 . . . . 30
Collingwood . .19 . . 7 . . . 3 . . . . 29
Melbourne . . . 9 . .12 . . . 8 . . . . 29
Carlton . . . .17 . . 8 . . . 2 . . . . 27
Richmond . . . .8 . . 9 . . .10 . . . . 27
North Melbourne 4 . . 7 . . . 8 . . . . 19
Hawthorn . . . .7 . . 4 . . . - . . . . 11
Footscray . . . - . . 6 . . . 4 . . . . 10
Fitzroy . . . . 4 . . 3 . . . 1 . . . . .8
South/Sydney . .7 . . - . . . - . . . . .7
St.Kilda . . . .3 . . 3 . . . 1 . . . . .7
Complete total of minor premierships across all three grades.
Club. . . .SeniorsReservesUnder 19s TOTAL
Essendon . . . 17 . . 8 . . . 6 . . . . 31
Geelong . . . .13 . .13 . . . 4 . . . . 30
Collingwood . .19 . . 7 . . . 3 . . . . 29
Melbourne . . . 9 . .12 . . . 8 . . . . 29
Carlton . . . .17 . . 8 . . . 2 . . . . 27
Richmond . . . .8 . . 9 . . .10 . . . . 27
North Melbourne 4 . . 7 . . . 8 . . . . 19
Hawthorn . . . .7 . . 4 . . . - . . . . 11
Footscray . . . - . . 6 . . . 4 . . . . 10
Fitzroy . . . . 4 . . 3 . . . 1 . . . . .8
South/Sydney . .7 . . - . . . - . . . . .7
St.Kilda . . . .3 . . 3 . . . 1 . . . . .7
Should find a home for that. Maybe Wikipedia?
I wonder if its time for the League to officially re-instate the long abandoned title of 'minor premier' (although it seems to have made a comeback in popular use in more recent years) or at least come up with some appropriate title for the team finishing on top of the final ladder?
However in the scheme of things its a bit of a hollow title unless you also take the Premiership.
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I have become somewhat perplexed with Wikipedia's attitude recently. They will not accept some info I tried to post about Pot Black, which came from a Pot Black annual, yet they have not queried the stats I added regarding Denis Pagan's coaching career with Yarraville and Northern Knights.
If anyone wishes to put the minor premiers info elsewhere, please feel free. I certainly don't own the info at all. It's just good to share it with others.
If anyone wishes to put the minor premiers info elsewhere, please feel free. I certainly don't own the info at all. It's just good to share it with others.
Extremely telling statistics. They show clearly what market the AFL is now aimed at and has been aiming itself at for probably the past twenty years - actual or potential fans or players of basketball. Basketball is such a purely telegenic sport that it can be extremely rich even with average attendances around seventeen thousand in stadiums that do not seat any more, and this although average NBA ticket prices are similar to those in the AFL. One might think that with such small stadiums average ticket prices would have to be much higher than the maximum US$113 (A$106) of the Los Angeles Lakers.
What one fears is that with this goal the AFL will allow attendances to fall much further in the future and the level of competitive balance to reach the stage where only a very few teams have any chance of winning the premiership and many have no chance of winning more than three or four games a season. Even in its appalling first twenty-nine years in the VFL, Hawthorn never had more than five consecutive seasons with four or fewer wins; North Melbourne never had more than four; and St. Kilda since 1903 never more than five. All of these, moreover, were in eighteen- or nineteen- game seasons. What one fears is that teams like Port Adelaide and Brisbane may go many years without winning more than two or three games in a season and with attendances even in Melbourne low enough that facilities at the MCG and Docklands will need to be reduced in quality for their visits if that’s possible. In the process, I cannot but say football has lost its distinctive character as well.
mianfei asked:
Since 1919: 25.66% in 1919. Next highest - 22.37% in 1921
Since 1969: 9.56% in 1970. Next highest - 8.44% in 1988 and 1989.
1935 - 21.43%
1934 - 4.46%
Since 1919: 25.66% in 1919. Next highest - 22.37% in 1921
Since 1969: 9.56% in 1970. Next highest - 8.44% in 1988 and 1989.
1935 - 21.43%
1926 - 4.46%
1934 - 4.46%
Pecentage of matches with attendances under 20,000 1987-2011
High - Low
1987 58.75
1988 64.38
1989 60.63
1990 47.20
1991 42.44
1992 34.30
1993 33.76
1994 32.18
1995 36.22
1996 28.65
1997 17.30
1998 13.51
1999 11.89
2000 11.35
2001 11.89
2002 14.05
2003 10.27
2004 10.81
2005 5.95
2006 8.11
2007 7.03
2008 8.65
2009 10.81
2010 8.06
2011 16.84
Under 20,000 attendances last two seasons (2010-11)
Code:
Nth Melbourne 13
Port Adelaide 13
Hawthorn 9
Gold Coast 9
West Bulldogs 8
Brisbane 8
Adelaide 8
Melbourne 6
Fremantle 6
West Coast 5
Sydney 4
Richmond 4
St Kilda 2
Geelong 1
Carlton 0
Collingwood 0Port Adelaide had 5 in 2010 and 8 in 2011.
Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
1973 Under 19's. Fair gap between 5th and 6th!
Something went seriously awry when I re-posted this recently. The Reserves column was out of whack and so were some of the overall totals.
Complete total of minor premierships across all three grades.
Team . . . . Seniors Reserves Under 19 TOTAL
Collingwood . 19 . . . 16 . . . 3 . . . 38
Richmond . . . 8 . . . 13 . . .10 . . . 31
Essendon . . .17 . . . .7 . . . 6 . . . 30
Geelong . . . 13 . . . 10 . . . 4 . . . 27
Carlton . . . 17 . . . .6 . . . 2 . . . 25
Melbourne . . .9 . . . .8 . . . 7 . . . 24
North Melb . . 4 . . . .5 . . . 8 . . . 17
Hawthorn . . . 7 . . . .3 . . . - . . . 10
Footscray . . .- . . . .6 . . . 4 . . . 10
South/Sydney . 7 . . . .2 . . . - . . . .9
Fitzroy . . . .4 . . . .2 . . . 1 . . . .7
St. Kilda . . .3 . . . .3 . . . 1 . . . .7
Complete total of minor premierships across all three grades.
Team . . . . Seniors Reserves Under 19 TOTAL
Collingwood . 19 . . . 16 . . . 3 . . . 38
Richmond . . . 8 . . . 13 . . .10 . . . 31
Essendon . . .17 . . . .7 . . . 6 . . . 30
Geelong . . . 13 . . . 10 . . . 4 . . . 27
Carlton . . . 17 . . . .6 . . . 2 . . . 25
Melbourne . . .9 . . . .8 . . . 7 . . . 24
North Melb . . 4 . . . .5 . . . 8 . . . 17
Hawthorn . . . 7 . . . .3 . . . - . . . 10
Footscray . . .- . . . .6 . . . 4 . . . 10
South/Sydney . 7 . . . .2 . . . - . . . .9
Fitzroy . . . .4 . . . .2 . . . 1 . . . .7
St. Kilda . . .3 . . . .3 . . . 1 . . . .7
