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Stats observations

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red+black said:
Ross Lyon in grand finals, averages:

Goals: 8.5
Behinds: 11.5
Points: 62.5

GOALS | in a QTR | in a GAME
\ 0 | 3 | 0 \ 1 | 3 | 0 \ 2 | 2 | 0 \ 3 | 6 | 0 \ 4 | 1 | 0 \ 5 | 1 | 0 \ 6 | 0 | 0 \ 7 | 0 | 1 \ 8 | 0 | 1 \ 9 | 0 | 1 \ 10 | 0 | 1
Click to expand...


So unless he can be teleported back to 1968 or 2005.....it could be argued that his record of 0-1-3 is about par for that sort of score average. Even his best defence of his sides concedes a little more than that.

Very illuminating stat that's for sure.
 
Yeah, 63 points isn't going to win many grand finals. Shame they were so bad cos I loved their game against Geelong three weeks back.
 
Since 2000, eleven sides have played in a Grand Final. Except for Melbourne (2000), each of those sides have played in a 2nd grand final within 4 years, Hawthorn (2008, 2012) taking the longest for a return. Seven of the teams played in back to back grand finals.

Will Fremantle continue the trend and be back in 2014 or at least within 2-4 years?
 
Observed after the 2013 Grand Final

Ranked by match/win percentage and then by for and against percentage there have been only 14 better season results than Hawthorn’s in 2013 and only 14 worse season results than GWS’ in 2013.

The “premiership” quarter in 2013 has not been the third quarter.

Lowest average winning margin in a finals series in over 30 years.

The Hawks’ supremacy* now goes back to 1953.

The Hawks’ lowest winning score for the year.

A half-time score not seen for over half a century.

Fremantle become a unique grand finalist.

Matching bookends in the first and last Grand Final played.

A second time only occurrence in Grand Final results in over 40 years.

Both Grand Finalists having their best seasons ever.

Beating Fremantle by 15 points a good omen for the Hawks.

The Dockers tip the balance for first time grand finalists not in a favourable way.

Hawthorn’s match/win percentage against Fremantle is the same as the last number of seasons that Hawthorn have won more premierships in than anybody else.


Details and More: Click here.

  • ‘supremacy’ from Latin supremus ‘highest’ – highest number of premierships won AND highest match/win percentage in any given period. (Let us hear no more of and leave to the Mings and Hapsburgs, the inherited ‘dynasty’ nonsense that also has no connotation of being ‘best’ or even 'good'.)
 

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I'm sure after a while i'll be living in this thread, but I thought I'd throw in two that I saw during the week on Twitter.

Before Saturday, the last 5 times that the best attacking team (most points for) had played the best defensive team (least points against), in a grandfinal, the defensive team has won. Following the trend, Fremantle should have won but Hawthorn got the chocolates.

And another, since Simon Black had 39 disposals in Brisbane's 2003 premiership, no player has had 30+ disposals in a WINNING grandfinal. The trend continued this year with Birchall and Lewis leading the possessions with 26 each. (To add, 12 players have had 30+ disposals in a GF since 2003, but they've all played for the losing team.)
 
red+black said:
Next week Ross Lyon becomes the 20th coach to reach 4 grand finals.

The other 19 have each won at least 1 premiership.
Click to expand...

Ron The Bear said:
Checker Hughes' career record was 11-5-5-1, but his first four were losses.
Click to expand...

As you said, Frank Hughes won a premiership at his 5th attempt. Recent history shows that Fremantle should make another grand final within a few years, so Ross will have a chance to redeem his grand final record. But he's starting to look like the Rene Kink of grand finals.

Does anyone know why Checker Hughes went to Melbourne in 1933? He coached 4 losing grand finals at Richmond but finally won a premiership at his 5th attempt in 1932. But that was his last game as Richmond coach.
 
jjsmitty8 said:
I'm sure after a while i'll be living in this thread, but I thought I'd throw in two that I saw during the week on Twitter.

Before Saturday, the last 5 times that the best attacking team (most points for) had played the best defensive team (least points against), in a grandfinal, the defensive team has won. Following the trend, Fremantle should have won but Hawthorn got the chocolates.
Click to expand...
By the 2009 Grand Final, Geelong's average points scored for the season was 105.33 ahead of the next best by the Western Bulldogs who had finished on an average of 104.80 for the season. St Kilda's average points conceded by the Grand Final was 63.17 far ahead of the next least for the season - Adelaide on 80.92 and Geelong 3rd with 81.00. So Lyon's 'best defence' lost out to the 'best attack' coming into that Grand Final although after the Grand Final Geelong's average score for the season dropped back to 104.32 and like Hawthorn's score this year, Geelong's score in the Grand Final was their lowest winning score for the year. Also St Kilda's score in the Grand Final meant that Geelong's average points conceded dropped back to 80.48 points - 2nd lowest for the season.
 
red+black said:
As you said, Frank Hughes won a premiership at his 5th attempt. Recent history shows that Fremantle should make another grand final within a few years, so Ross will have a chance to redeem his grand final record. But he's starting to look like the Rene Kink of grand finals.

Does anyone know why Checker Hughes went to Melbourne in 1933? He coached 4 losing grand finals at Richmond but finally won a premiership at his 5th attempt in 1932. But that was his last game as Richmond coach.
Click to expand...
Melbourne offered him "bigger pickings". The Clubs: The Complete History of Every Club in the AFL
The Richmond committee was at first reluctant to give him a clearance but eventually relented. There may have been an element amongst the players that wanted him gone and they may have had the ear of the committee.

According to Jack Dyer, "Discipline mixed with sarcasm was Hughes' main weapon to lift flagging teams. He'd open with, 'It's a very pleasant afternoon. I can imagine being out in that sunshine, getting plenty of fresh air and playing a nice friendly game in nice clean togs. I won't spoil it for you. We'll lay out the white linen at 3/4 time. The ladies will supply the cream cakes and tea. And we'll have a jolly pleasant afternoon. But I'm buggered if any of you will ever play for Richmond again. Get out their and play like men, even if you are not'."

Hughes axed 13 players from Melbourne's list after taking over as coach and the 'Fuchsias*' became the 'Demons' under him.

* Fuchsia is a genus of flowering plants that consists mostly of shrubs or small trees with drooping purplish, reddish, or white flowers
 
RogersResults said:
Melbourne offered him "bigger pickings". The Clubs: The Complete History of Every Club in the AFL
The Richmond committee was at first reluctant to give him a clearance but eventually relented. There may have been an element amongst the players that wanted him gone and they may have had the ear of the committee.
Click to expand...

Most history texts state that Hughes followed Richmond secretary and close friend Percy Page across to Melbourne. Page was the co-inventor of the final four system which was used between 1931-71.
 
Jack Dyer reminisces...
I've always said that great players make great coaches, and I believe a great coach can make a great team out of good players.

Checker Hughes, the psychologist of the game, was a great coach and he beat champions with good players because he knew and understood them.

You can take Jock McHale and even Norm Smith. Checker was the greatest coach I've ever seen.

With a few scathing words he could lift a side.

Many a time I've sat among dejected beaten players at half time wondering how we could come back and win.

Then Checker would rise quietly and you wouldn't dare drop a pin while he had the floor.

He's thrown committeemen out of the room for coughing during an address.

<insert RogersResults' quote here>

Once he said to me: "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."

There was another time he spoke to the team. He dripped sarcasm. "I'd like to tell you a nice little story before we discuss football."

The players writhed, knowing something awful was coming.

"When I was a little boy, my mother bought me 18 little wooden soldiers. I learned to love each and every one of them.

I took them everywhere I went and then one day tragically I lost them all. But I'll tell you something...I'VE GOT THE WHOLE BLEEDING LOT BACK TODAY."

But Checker wasn't simply a blaster of his team.

He knew the time for the pat on the shoulder and the encouraging word.

Against Carlton I had some teeth knocked out, and being a young footballer, I didn't face up to Footscray with confidence the following week.

We were well down at half time.

I hadn't touched the ball or made any heroic effort to touch it.

If ever a player deserved a blast it was me.

I was fairly cringing as he ripped through the side man by man.

I didn't want to be branded a jib among that mob.

I was the only player he never mentioned.

As we set off for the second half, he restrained me with a hand on the arm.

He said quietly: "I'm surprised at you, son. You're not saddling up too well after that knock."

It's the nicest way I've ever been called a squib.

It was left unsaid and for me to prove it wrong.

There was nothing I wouldn't have done in the second half to remove the stigma.

They could have chopped me in little pieces and the pieces would have chased the ball.

He set me alight and we won the match.

Kevin O'Neill smouldered with indignation for years because Checker never gave him so much as a pat on the back or a good word.

Yet O'Neill was one of our greats.

Finally, after about ten years O'Neill screwed up the courage to back-chat Checker.

"In all these years you've never told me I've played a decent game."

Checker was short, terse and sharp. "What do you think you're in the side for? You're a champion, you're expected to play like it. Start worrying when I do want to talk to you."

He was ruthless in his demand for discipline and as the tutor of Norm Smith. I reckon the Lawman learned the lesson, and, in turn, passed it on to Ron Barassi.

There's a bit of Checker in every one of those coaches.

And when I was coach I modelled myself on what I thought was the best of Checker and Perc Bentley.

Discipline was of top importance with Checker.

The late Bert Foster arrived at the ground one very cold night and developed a sudden cough and didn't strip.

I was ready and tying up my bootlaces when Checker thundered: "Foster, why aren't you on the ground?"

Foster said: "I don't think I'll train. The doctor says I've got the 'flu."

Checker roared: "I'm the doctor here. Get on that ground now."

Bert beat me on to the ground.

Checker developed the greatest football combination I've seen in any club - the Richmond team from 1927 to '32.

I don't care how many premierships Collingwood won in that era; they weren't as good a side.

Luck was something that often ran against Checker in those big games.

With a bit of luck he should have set up the greatest coaching record of them all.

Checker left Richmond after making them a great club and went to the down-and-out Melbourne.

In five years he was to mould them into a power side.

Melbourne never looked back since the days they pirated Checker Hughes from Richmond.

Before the advent of Checker, the Fuschias were a blue blood club. Players like myself were ruffians and bounders.

The game's the thing. Play up, play up and play the game. This was the Melbourne attitude.

Melbourne weren't there to win matches. They were a collection of well-bred and well-tutored young chaps, who had to fill in an afternoon of gentlemanly sport for the pleasure of the members.

How Checker changed all that, and in doing so he also educated Norm Smith to take up the reins.

This is why the club is great. They found the secret of success and they've stuck to it like glue.

I must confess the only time I threw a boot was in a clash against Carlton, and do you think Checker gave me the rounds of the kitchen.

I didn't try to kick the fellow. I meant to frighten him.

It was in the early thirties and I was a pretty green kid. I had to saddle up against Mocca Johnson and Dinny Kelleher, a couple of mayhem men from way back.

I was walking around sweet and innocent with stars in my eyes when I copped a ripper.

The stars were everywhere.

Down I went and I've still got the gap at the back of my jaw where I picked out the broken pieces.

My trainer, the late Teddy Webster, came to my aid, and I said, "What'll I do?"

His answer was short and to the point. "Kick his bleeding head off."

I surmised it was Kelleher who jobbed me, so I raced up field and let one fly in the pack.

It missed him by a fraction, as I intended.

But I saw the whites of his eyes and he screamed: "You're mad; you're mad."

I just had to let him know he couldn't get away with anything.

It wasn't any use hitting him with my shoulder. I was lightly built in those days and he was solid iron.

I'd have broken into little pieces if I'd put the shoulder into him.

It's a true story that he fell off a brewery wagon on the morning of a semi-final against South Melbourne in '34.

The wheel ran over him but he got up unscathed. He broke the wheel.

He played in the final that afternoon and was one of the best on the ground.

So perhaps it was better that I didn't land the slipper. Probably I would've broken my foot.

But I achieved my purpose. He didn't come near me all day.

After the match Checker had plenty to say.

He slammed me against the wall and snarled: "If you ever do that again you're finished. We've got plenty of heavy artillery to even up."

Don't think for a minute that the mild-mannered Checker of today wasn't as tough as any of them.

My first taste at training after I made a couple of pretty long-striding laps of the oval. He snarled: "What do you think you are - a prize bull at the show?"
Click to expand...

From Tigerland, by Brian Hansen.

Hughes actually lost seven Grand Finals in succession as a coach: Richmond reserves 1923, Ulverstone (Tas) 1924-26, Richmond 1927-29. Then again in 1931, before winning the first of five VFL flags at two clubs in 1932.

Despite missing four years of football due to war service during which he won a Distinguished Conduct Medal for Gallantry, Hughes was a dual premiership player and Victorian representative. He is also the oldest man to have coached a VFL/AFL match, filling the breach in 1965 at 71 while Norm Smith was on state duty.

"Shop early and avoid the rush" - often attributed to Charlie Sutton - was actually coined by Hughes.

Checker Hughes - the man who stoked the fires beneath two great clubs. Makes a pretty compelling case for Legend status, for mine.
 
Ron The Bear said:
Most history texts state that Hughes followed Richmond secretary and close friend Percy Page across to Melbourne. Page was the co-inventor of the final four system which was used between 1931-71.
Click to expand...
Page as a club delegate to the League sponsored Ken McIntyre's plan for a new finals system but the idea of extending the double-chance to the top two teams so as to guarantee a 4th or grand final each year was McIntyre's alone.

McIntyre came up with the idea after the team he supported, Geelong defeated Collingwood in the 1930 final and the 'conspiracy theorists' of the time (always with us) claimed that Geelong only won because Collingwood played to lose on purpose so as to garner the extra revenue from a 4th or 'grand final' that they as the team that finished on top of ladder were entitled to play if they lost one of their finals.

As R.W.E. Wilmot writing as 'Old Boy' in the Argus said at the time, "Anything that can remove the evil-minded to criticise or to suggest motives is worthwhile". Wilmot was the author of the previous so-called 'Argus' system of playing finals which had been sponsored by the Essendon delegate to the League after the 1901 season - a season when no team had a double chance and top of the ladder, Geelong had complained.
 
Ron The Bear said:
Jack Dyer reminisces...


From Tigerland, by Brian Hansen.

Hughes actually lost seven Grand Finals in succession as a coach: Richmond reserves 1923, Ulverstone (Tas) 1924-26, Richmond 1927-29. Then again in 1931, before winning the first of five VFL flags at two clubs in 1932.

Despite missing four years of football due to war service during which he won a Distinguished Conduct Medal for Gallantry, he was a dual premiership player and Victorian representative. He is also the oldest man to have coached a VFL/AFL match, filling the breach in 1965 at 71 while Norm Smith was on state duty.

Checker Hughes - the man who stoked the fires beneath two great clubs. Makes a pretty compelling case for Legend status, for mine.
Click to expand...

Marrying the daughter of the Carlton vice-president might be against him.
 

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prem_ru_zps75dcac4f.png
​
Matches against the eventual grand finalists outside of the finals 2007-2013.​
 
^ Sorry for being a pedant but could you please list the text above tables rather than below. Thanks.

PS. Took me a little while to understand the table, but once I did, wow, that is very interesting!
 

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red+black said:
Yeah, Richmond get thumped by 157 points yet Essendon still has a worse percentage :rolleyes:
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They can thank their smashings of Hawthorn and Sydney in 2012, and the similar number on the Hawks in 2013 for the improved percentage despite 157. I think as RTB posted somewhere, not many sides have improved their W/L ratio 4 times in succession as the Tigers have, and a similar improvement in 2014 would see them knocking on the door of serious Finals action in terms of top-4.
 
Thinking out loud here. Now that Buddy is flying north for a very long time, I thought I'd look at his stats. I'm particularly interested in significant stats at two clubs. Only one player has played 150 games at two clubs. No player has kicked 500 goals at two clubs.

TEAM | YRS | GM | GL | MOST GOALS
\ Hawthorn | 9 | 182 | 580 | 113 season, 13 game
\ Sydney | 9 | | |
Bernie Quinlan [366 games]: Footscray (177), Fitzroy (189)
John Blakey [359]: Fitzroy (135), North Melbourne (224)
Gary Dempsey [329]: Footscray (207), North Melbourne (122)
Barry Round [328]: Footscray (135), Swans (193)
Roger Merrett [313]: Essendon (149), Brisbane (164)
Alastair Lynch [306]: Fitzroy (120), Brisbane (186)
Russell Greene [304]: St Kilda (120), Hawthorn (184)
Gavin Wanganeen [300]: Essendon (127), Port (173)

Tony Lockett [1360 goals]: St Kilda (898), Sydney (462)
Doug Wade [1057]: Geelong (834), North Melbourne (223)
Bernie Quinlan [817]: Footscray (241), Fitzroy (576)
Saverio Rocca [748]: Collingwood (514), North Melbourne (234)
Jeff Farmer [483]: Melbourne (259), Fremantle (224)
 
stemline said:
Freo now goalless in 1st qtrs of four consecutive games against Hawthorn. Is that any kind of record?
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Not a record, but getting into rarefied territory. There are only a dozen runs of three, post-WW1.

M|Club|Opp|Start
\6|Ca|Sy|1898 R8
\5|Ca|Es|1898 R10
\4|Sy|Me|1897 R1
\4|Ge|Me|1897 R2
\4|Co|Fi|1897 R5
\4|Sy|Es|1899 R3
\4|St|Co|1899 R10
\4|Ca|Sy|1901 R11
\4|Es|Fi|1905 R6
\4|St|Ge|1910 R15
\4|Fi|Ri|1949 R18
\4|Fr|Ha|2011 R19
 
Retrospective Match/Win Ratio Tables - 2013​
​
Collingwood has clearly won a higher percentage of their matches than any other club since the League began in 1897. But currently 2013 Premiers, Hawthorn have won the highest percentage starting from 2011. However if we start in 2010, Geelong takes over as the team with the highest match win percentage. In the last four seasons Geelong has won a higher percentage of their matches than any other team, putting them on top of any Match/Win% table. But what if we work backwards, how long does Geelong stay on top? ​
​
 

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