Stats questions

[emuboy]

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Collingwood's 16.12-108 to 7.9-51 demolition of St Kilda last night brought a sense of de ja vu; with the Saints' score just 1-point less than the 56 point thrashing the Magpies inflicted on the Saints in last year's one sided Grand Final replay, Collingwood winning that game 16.12-108 to 7.10-52.

While it was a pity that the Saints could not have scored one more behind to create an amazing statistic, are there any other cases in which teams have repeated a Grand Final score at a later stage, or whether a Grand Final score has occurred before between two teams?

The only example I can think of is Footscray vs Melbourne. Footscray trounced Melbourne 15.12-102 to 7.9-51 to win the 1954 premiership at the MCG, and 23 years later this scoreline was repeated at the MCG. Sadly for the Bulldogs, this game was a mid-season match between two non-finalists; it did not net them the 1977 premiership.

 

[RogersResults]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Collingwood's 16.12-108 to 7.9-51 demolition of St Kilda last night brought a sense of de ja vu; with the Saints' score just 1-point less than the 56 point thrashing the Magpies inflicted on the Saints in last year's one sided Grand Final replay, Collingwood winning that game 16.12-108 to 7.10-52.

While it was a pity that the Saints could not have scored one more behind to create an amazing statistic, are there any other cases in which teams have repeated a Grand Final score at a later stage, or whether a Grand Final score has occurred before between two teams?

The only example I can think of is Footscray vs Melbourne. Footscray trounced Melbourne 15.12-102 to 7.9-51 to win the 1954 premiership at the MCG, and 23 years later this scoreline was repeated at the MCG. Sadly for the Bulldogs, this game was a mid-season match between two non-finalists; it did not net them the 1977 premiership.

All the Grand Final rematch weirdness is on this page or here.

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

The last 4 matches have seen winning scores ranging from 111 to 116.
4 matches, 5 point span.
Is this the lowest ratio of such an occurrence of 4 matches in a row or more?

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/seas/1957.html#3
4 winning scores 87,86,88,87 (and then a losing score of 87) in the same round.
Plus two other two point spreads across rounds.

"In a row" is a bit tricky, as when games start at the same time they can either be in the sequence or out of it. e.g. Collingwood's 108 is out of it in your example.

 

[Ron The Bear]

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The last 4 matches have seen winning scores ranging from 111 to 116.
4 matches, 5 point span.
Is this the lowest ratio of such an occurrence of 4 matches in a row or more?

Defining "consecutive matches" is problematic due to different time zones, e.g. a Perth game beginning at 5:40pm local time will finish later than a Melbourne match commencing at 7:10pm, but a computer will obviously order them differently. However, I've pulled out the following records for complete rounds:

4 matches - 5 points, 1924 R6 (min 68, max 73)
5 matches - 8 points, 1952 R11 (77, 85 - the other match was a draw with scores of 76)
6 matches - 12 points, 1957 R2 (73, 85); 1967 R3 (69, 81)
7 matches - 19 points, 1994 R10 (101, 120)
8 matches - 20 points, 2003 R8 (103, 123)

Some others:
- 1936 R10 - four of the five matches played that afternoon produced winning scores between 102-105
- 1988 R6-7 - the two Sunday matches, the following round's Friday match and one of the four 2:10 Saturday matches produced winning scores in the range 111-114
- 1994 R10 - the four Saturday afternoon matches produced winning scores in the range 106-112
- 1997 R7-8 - the later Sunday match, the following Friday night match and the two Saturday afternoon matches had winning scores ranging from 126-129
- 1999 finals - the Sunday qualifying final, the two semi-finals and the Friday night prelim had scores ranging between 123-126

 

[kosifantutti]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Collingwood's 16.12-108 to 7.9-51 demolition of St Kilda last night brought a sense of de ja vu; with the Saints' score just 1-point less than the 56 point thrashing the Magpies inflicted on the Saints in last year's one sided Grand Final replay, Collingwood winning that game 16.12-108 to 7.10-52.

While it was a pity that the Saints could not have scored one more behind to create an amazing statistic, are there any other cases in which teams have repeated a Grand Final score at a later stage, or whether a Grand Final score has occurred before between two teams?

The only example I can think of is Footscray vs Melbourne. Footscray trounced Melbourne 15.12-102 to 7.9-51 to win the 1954 premiership at the MCG, and 23 years later this scoreline was repeated at the MCG. Sadly for the Bulldogs, this game was a mid-season match between two non-finalists; it did not net them the 1977 premiership.

When St Kilda beat Collingwood at the G in 97, the 3/4 time score was the same as the 1966 Grand Final 10.14 Saints 10. 13 Pies.

 

[damuzzdu]

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Dale Thomas has won GOTW and MOTW in same week. Has this happened before ?

 

[worbod]

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Another player with ten goal hauls in two different leagues is Dave McNamara, with a best of 10 in the VFL and a best of 18 in the VFA.

 

[UpForGrabs]

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Some other names which can be added are:

Peter McKenna, who kicked 10 goal hauls in three different leagues.
His highest in the VFL was 16, he had a best of 12 in the NWFU in Tasmania and then a best of 11 in the VFA for Geelong West. McKenna also kicked 10 in a VFL night series game and also in an interstate game.

Also:
Ted Freyer (VFL best of 12, VFA best of 18)
Bob Pratt (VFL best of 15, VFA best of 22)
Brian Taylor (VFL best of 12, VFA best of 16)
Jack Titus (VFL best of 10, VFA best of 16)
Ron Todd (VFL best of 11, VFA best of 20)
Soapy Vallence (VFL best of 11, VFA best of 20)

Laurie Nash is another near miss having kicked a best of 9 in the VFL and a best of 14 in the VFA.
Stephen Kernahan's best in the SANFL was 7 in the 1985 Grand Final, and Jason Dunstall kicked no more than 8 for Coorparoo.

Is it worth looking at Bob Beecroft's career? He once kicked 10 for Fitzroy. Not sure of his best in the WAFL.

Cheers for that - I thought Kernahan may have got close, considering the 10 he kicked for SA v Victoria.

As for Bob Beecroft - I'll have to look into it. His time at Swan Districts coincided with that of Max George, who was a Bernie Naylor Medal winning full forward.

 

[UpForGrabs]

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Others I'll need to look into:

Geoff Blethyn. Kicked 11 for Essendon in 1972, played for Claremont in the WAFL and kicked a decent amount of goals.

Ron Evans. Booted 10 in a game for the Bombers and won a Bernie Naylor Medal for West Perth.

 

[worbod]

Re: Post your stats questions here

George Goninon is another player with a 10 goal haul in the VFL/AFL and another league.

He had a best of 14 in the NWFU for Burnie and then claimed a best of 11 in the VFL for Geelong.

Alan Rait is another near miss, having a best of 14 in the TFL for North Hobart and a best of 9 in the VFL for Footscray.

 

[Supermercado]

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Surely Allen Jakovich booted ten at some point in SA or the NT?

 

[Catsace]

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Scott Hodges scored 11 goals against Geelong in 1992, one would have thought he'd have scored 10 or more for his SANFL club?

 

[DeanoT]

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Scott Hodges scored 11 goals against Geelong in 1992, one would have thought he'd have scored 10 or more for his SANFL club?

Bloody Scott Hodges did nothing in the AFL except when he played against us.

I know he kicked 150+ in a SANFL season, so he must have a few 10+ bags.

 

[damuzzdu]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Can anyone provide stats on how many teams have made the finals (5,6, or 8) after winning 3 or 4 of their first 11 games (when season has been 22 rounds).

Tks

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Can anyone provide stats on how many teams have made the finals (5,6, or 8) after winning 3 or 4 of their first 11 games (when season has been 22 rounds).

Tks

3 wins - 1/106
3 wins & 1 draw - 0/20
3 wins & 2 draws - 0/1
4 wins - 4/120
4 wins & 1 draw - 2/23

Year Cb  P W L D FnPs
---------------------
1984 Fi 11 3 8 0 5/12
1995 Br 11 4 7 0 8/16
1995 WB 11 4 7 0 7/16
1996 Ha 11 4 6 1 8/16
1997 Br 11 4 7 0 8/16
2004 WC 11 4 7 0 7/16
2005 PA 11 4 6 1 8/16

 

[damuzzdu]

Re: Post your stats questions here

3 wins - 1/106
3 wins & 1 draw - 0/20
3 wins & 2 draws - 0/1
4 wins - 4/120
4 wins & 1 draw - 2/23

Year Cb  P W L D FnPs
---------------------
1984 Fi 11 3 8 0 5/12
1995 Br 11 4 7 0 8/16
1995 WB 11 4 7 0 7/16
1996 Ha 11 4 6 1 8/16
1997 Br 11 4 7 0 8/16
2004 WC 11 4 7 0 7/16
2005 PA 11 4 6 1 8/16

Tks Ron, Gee I am surprised that it is even low. I would have thought a fraction higher.

What does it look with 5 wins from 1st 11 matches.. ??

 

[Ron The Bear]

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What does it look with 5 wins from 1st 11 matches.. ??

5 wins - 31/165
5 wins & 1 draw - 5/20

Year Cb  P W L D FnPs
---------------------
1900 Co 11 5 6 0  4/8
1900 Es 11 5 6 0  2/8
1902 Me 11 5 6 0  4/8
1905 Es 11 5 6 0  4/8
1908 Co 11 5 6 0 4/10
1913 St 11 5 6 0 4/10
1914 Ge 11 5 5 1 4/10
1916 Co 11 5 5 1  2/4
1916 Ri 11 5 6 0  3/4
1917 Fi 11 5 5 1  4/6
1920 Ca 11 5 6 0  3/9
1923 Sy 11 5 6 0  3/9
1929 St 11 5 6 0 4/12
1937 Ri 11 5 5 1 4/12
1945 Ca 11 5 6 0 4/12
1949 Es 11 5 6 0 4/12
1959 Co 11 5 6 0 3/12
1959 Es 11 5 6 0 4/12
1975 NM 11 5 6 0 3/12
1978 Ca 11 5 6 0 4/12
1978 Ge 11 5 6 0 5/12
1981 Fi 11 5 6 0 5/12
1987 Me 11 5 6 0 5/14
1988 WC 11 5 6 0 4/14
1994 WB 11 5 6 0 5/15
1997 Sy 11 5 6 0 6/16
1998 Ad 11 5 6 0 5/16
1999 PA 11 5 6 0 7/16
2000 Br 11 5 6 0 6/16
2000 Ha 11 5 6 0 8/16
2003 Es 11 5 6 0 8/16
2005 St 11 5 6 0 4/16
2008 NM 11 5 5 1 7/16
2008 St 11 5 6 0 4/16
2009 Es 11 5 6 0 8/16
2010 Ha 11 5 6 0 7/16

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Instances of reaching finals, matches played v premiership points

 P |   0 2   4  6   8 10  12 14  16 18  20 22  24 26  28 30  32 34  36 38  40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 62 64 66 68 70 72 74 76 80 84
---|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1 | 181 9 356                                    
 2 |  52 7 236 11 250                                    
 3 |  15 1 114 13 231 11 174                                  
 4 |   5 0  42  7 153 15 210 11 114                                
 5 |   1 0  16  4  79  7 175 13 165 11  84                              
 6 |   0 0   6  2  35  9 116 12 159 14 136 11  54                            
 7 |   0 0   2  1  15  3  54 11 132 15 153 15 110  8  37                          
 8 |   0 0   1  0   3  3  30  6  79 10 147 17 133 14  88  4  26                        
 9 |   0 0   1  0   0  2  10  1  44  7  95 13 141 19 116 14  76     14                      
10 |   0 0   0  0   1  1   1  2  19  1  66 11 106 17 130 18 108 10  53     11                    
11 |   0 0   0  0   0  1   1  0   4  2  31  5  89 14 104 19 115 16  99  8  37     8                  
12 |   0 -   0  0   0  1   0  0   2  1  10  3  52  6  91 14 114 24 105 15  82  5 23     7                
13 |   0 0   0  0   0  0   0  0   1  0   2  2  28  4  65  8  93 14 112 23  98 13 61  3 20     6              
14 |   0 0   0  0   0  0   0  0   1  0   1  0   6  6  43  2  75 13  89 17 111 21 89  9 42  2 17     3            
15 |   0 0   0  0   0  0   0  0   1  0   1  0   1  1  14  6  50  4  89 18  91 16 99 18 66 11 42  1 12     3          
16 |   0 0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   2  0   0  0   1  2  26  6  64  7  93 21 77 13 96 12 55  9 33     9     3        
17 |   0 0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   2  0   2  0   8  3  42  7  54 14 82 14 84 14 88 12 46  4 20     5     3      
18 |   0 0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   2  0   3  2  15  4  36  9 63 11 69 13 82 14 66  9 35  3 14     3     3    
19 |   - -   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   1  0   1  1   7  4  22  3 36 10 45  5 50 12 41  3 26  3  8  2  7     1     2  
20 |   - -   0  -   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   1  0   1  3   9  4 28  6 42 10 39  8 36  8 36  2 18  3 10     3     2  1 
21 |   - -   0  -   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   1  1   2  3 14  6 37  5 39  9 29  7 40  5 22  1 19  2  6     3  2 
22 |   - -   0  -   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   0  0   1  2  4  4 26  7 37  7 31  8 32  8 33  4 24  1 12  1  7  2  2

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Apologies - stats cited previously have been for all seasons.

For 22-match seasons (1970-2010, excluding 1993):

 P |  0 2   4 6   8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 62 64 66 68 70 72 74 76 80 84
---|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1 | 87 1 158                                      
 2 | 26 2 111 1 114                                    
 3 |  8 0  62 3 101  3 80                                  
 4 |  1 0  27 5  75  5 88  3 50                                
 5 |  0 0  10 3  47  3 80  3 68  4 37                              
 6 |  0 0   4 2  18  4 68  4 64  3 58  4 22                            
 7 |  0 0   2 1   9  1 30  7 66  3 71  5 40  2 16                          
 8 |  0 0   1 0   2  2 17  3 40  6 76  3 57  6 28  1 11                        
 9 |  0 0   1 0   0  1  5  1 27  3 50  8 74  2 42  7 25     6                      
10 |  0 0   0 0   1  0  1  2 11  0 36  4 60  8 58  6 40  4 16     5                    
11 |  0 0   0 0   0  0  1  0  4  2 17  1 54  7 49 11 51  4 31  3 13     4                  
12 |  0     0 0   0  0  0  0  2  1  9  3 29  1 54  8 46 12 45  3 26  2  8     4                
13 |  0     0 0   0  0  0  0  1  0  2  2 23  2 36  5 46  7 48 10 39  2 18  2  7     3              
14 |  0     0 0   0  0  0  0  1  0  1  0  6  4 32  2 37  8 48  9 42  6 30    14  2  8     2            
15 |  0     0 0   0  0  0  0  1  0  1  0  1  0 13  5 36  4 43  8 42  6 41  6 19  1 15  1  6     2          
16 |  0     0 0   0  0  0  0  0  0  2  0  0  0  1  2 24  5 40  3 45 13 33    40  6 14  2 11     6    2        
17 |  0     0 0   0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  2  0  2  0  8  3 36  6 30  9 46  7 35  4 38  5 14     7    3      2      
18 |        0 0   0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  2  0  3  2 15  4 33  9 40  6 37  6 39  4 29  4  9    9      1     2    
19 |        0     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  1  7  4 22  3 35 10 37  4 39  9 34  3 22  2 8      7     1     2  
20 |        0     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  1  3  9  4 28  6 40 10 34  4 36  7 31  2 17  2 10     3     2  1 
21 |        0     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  1  2  3 14  6 37  5 39  9 29  7 40  5 22  1 19  2  6     3  2 
22 |        0     0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  2  4  4 26  7 37  7 31  8 32  8 33  4 24  1 12  1  7  2  2

 

[damuzzdu]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Tks Ron. Again you have come up with amazing stats

It shows that 12 wins is a must to play finals...11 barely gets you into F8

 

[worbod]

Re: Post your stats questions here

On page 81 of the Herald Sun today there is an article on Norm Smith in the Sport Confidential column. The final paragraph makes mention of Smith's feat in the 1940 Grand Final of kicking 7 goals in Melbourne's win. It concludes by stating, "...which included kicking a then record seven goals in the 1940 Grand Final win over Richmond."

It is the wording of Smith's effort as a "then record" which baffles me. Why do certain people/organisations still insist that 7 Grand Final goals was the joint record prior to Brereton's 8 in 1985 and Ablett's 9 in 1989? Was the 1928 Grand Final, in which Gordon Coventry kicked 9 goals, not considered an official Grand Final at the time, or for many years thereafter?

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

1928 was a "Final" i.e. the minor premier winning both finals (though in 28, there was a drawn semi & replay), presumably this is the bone of contention.

 

[RogersResults]

Re: Post your stats questions here

5 wins - 31/165
5 wins & 1 draw - 5/20

Year Cb  P W L D FnPs
---------------------
1900 Co 11 5 6 0  4/8
1900 Es 11 5 6 0  2/8
1902 Me 11 5 6 0  4/8
1905 Es 11 5 6 0  4/8
1908 Co 11 5 6 0 4/10
1913 St 11 5 6 0 4/10
1914 Ge 11 5 5 1 4/10
1916 Co 11 5 5 1  2/4
1916 Ri 11 5 6 0  3/4
1917 Fi 11 5 5 1  4/6
1920 Ca 11 5 6 0  3/9
1923 Sy 11 5 6 0  3/9
1929 St 11 5 6 0 4/12
1937 Ri 11 5 5 1 4/12
1945 Ca 11 5 6 0 4/12
1949 Es 11 5 6 0 4/12
1959 Co 11 5 6 0 3/12
1959 Es 11 5 6 0 4/12
1975 NM 11 5 6 0 3/12
1978 Ca 11 5 6 0 4/12
1978 Ge 11 5 6 0 5/12
1981 Fi 11 5 6 0 5/12
1987 Me 11 5 6 0 5/14
1988 WC 11 5 6 0 4/14
1994 WB 11 5 6 0 5/15
1997 Sy 11 5 6 0 6/16
1998 Ad 11 5 6 0 5/16
1999 PA 11 5 6 0 7/16
2000 Br 11 5 6 0 6/16
2000 Ha 11 5 6 0 8/16
2003 Es 11 5 6 0 8/16
2005 St 11 5 6 0 4/16
2008 NM 11 5 5 1 7/16
2008 St 11 5 6 0 4/16
2009 Es 11 5 6 0 8/16
2010 Ha 11 5 6 0 7/16

Collingwood were actually not a "finalist" in 1900. They, like all the teams played in three "sectional" matches after 14 rounds of "home and away" matches. The "sectional" matches if counted as "finals" would mean that St Kilda made the "finals" in 1900 with 1 win.
Only the teams that headed the the two sectional ladders after the three rounds and the team that had finished on top of the ladder after the first 14 rounds (if not also one of the sectional leaders) played matches termed "finals".

Essendon, Fitzroy and Melbourne were the "finalists" for 1900.

Except for determining the then called, "minor premiers" (a term dropped by the League after 1904) the first round of 14 matches counted for nothing as Melbourne placed 6th with 6 wins from 14 matches went on to take the flag after heading the section B ladder on percentage from Collingwood and Geelong. Melbourne finished the year with the 5th highest Match/Win %. The system was changed for 1901.

 

[RogersResults]

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1928 was a "Final" i.e. the minor premier winning both finals (though in 28, there was a drawn semi & replay), presumably this is the bone of contention.

Under the "Argus" system the team finishing on top of the ladder (by 1928 the term "minor Premier" had long been dropped) was obliged to play a "Grand Final" if they did not win their first two finals.

1928 was a year where Collingwood (being the team that finished on top of the ladder) won their first two finals (the draw not being counted) and so there was technically no "Grand Final". However, the League has in more recent times post-dubbed all the final matches of the year which determined the Premiers, as "Grand Finals".

The exact rules that applied in 1928 are included in this article.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Collingwood were actually not a "finalist" in 1900. They, like all the teams played in three "sectional" matches after 14 rounds of "home and away" matches. The "sectional" matches if counted as "finals" would mean that St Kilda made the "finals" in 1900 with 1 win.
Only the teams that headed the the two sectional ladders after the three rounds and the team that had finished on top of the ladder after the first 14 rounds (if not also one of the sectional leaders) played matches termed "finals".

When I created the results table, I classed the sectional rounds as home & away matches since all teams participated. Must've gone off the automatically created "ladder" after "Round 17" (Sectional Round 3) and marked the top four teams as finalists.

Thanks for picking that up.