-
-
If you are seeing this notice, posts and uploads you make now may be lost when we cut over to the upgraded system. This should only last a few hours.
Post feedback, issues, errors and omissions here. Read the OP first, please.
-
Mobile App Discontinued
Due to a number of factors, support for the current BigFooty mobile app has been discontinued. Your BigFooty login will no longer work on the Tapatalk or the BigFooty App - which is based on Tapatalk.
Apologies for any inconvenience. We will try to find a replacement.
Stats questions
- Thread starter red+black
- Start date
- Tagged users None
🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.
Max Rooke kicked Geelong's first and last goals in 2009.
And Tom Lonergan did the same in 2008!
(not that it did a lot of good that particular day.)Log in to remove this Banner Ad
Milang_Panthers
Brownlow Medallist
Has anyone ever kicked the very first and very last goals in a season?
I've noticed that while AFL Tables, Footy Works and All the Stats have Vin Gardiner kicking 46 goals for Carlton in 1911 (equalling Harry Brereton as league leader after finals), and a career goal tally of 341, the AFL Season Guide 2012 has him with 47 goals and Leading Goalkicker (At End Of Finals). It does however contradict itself occasionally in the book e.g. saying he had 44 H&A goals and 3 in finals, but also having him with 46 goals in a couple of spots. Older versions of the AFL Season Guide have him as Leading Goalkicker (At End Of Finals) with 47 goals, yet again 46 goals is the figure elsewhere in the same book.
An article on the AFL website (via Carlton website, seemingly) says: Vin Gardiner kicked 47 goals in 1911, the most goals for the year, however 3 of these goals were in the finals and his home and away season tally of 44 was 2 behind Harry Brereton of Melbourne who won the AFL Goalkicker Medal. http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/31650/default.aspx
Also: His 342 goals still ranks him as the 7th highest goal scorer for the Blues. http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/29725/default.aspx
And (Carlton record only): 157 games, 341 goals, 1907-1917
Club leading goalkicker 1908 (34), 1910 (42), 1911 (47), 1912 (47), 1913 (27), 1916 (44) & 1917 (22)
VFL leading goalkicker (tied) 1911 http://www.afl.com.au/newsviews/dev...isplay/tabid/13144/newsid/110102/default.aspx
Some online sources and most books that I have (eg 100 Years of Australian Football, The Clubs, Every Game Ever Played, The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers) agree with the AFL Season Guide figure(s) [47/342]. Even the 1967 Footy Annual has him as the leading goalkicker in 1911 with 47 goals.
So, does anyone know if there's a story behind this discrepancy? I'm inclined to believe the AFL Tables/Footy Works figures are correct, but I'd like to know where this has come from. Perhaps because Gardiner kicked 47 goals the next season a mistake was made some time ago and it's been repeated over the years in official AFL and other publications?
An article on the AFL website (via Carlton website, seemingly) says: Vin Gardiner kicked 47 goals in 1911, the most goals for the year, however 3 of these goals were in the finals and his home and away season tally of 44 was 2 behind Harry Brereton of Melbourne who won the AFL Goalkicker Medal. http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/31650/default.aspx
Also: His 342 goals still ranks him as the 7th highest goal scorer for the Blues. http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/29725/default.aspx
And (Carlton record only): 157 games, 341 goals, 1907-1917
Club leading goalkicker 1908 (34), 1910 (42), 1911 (47), 1912 (47), 1913 (27), 1916 (44) & 1917 (22)
VFL leading goalkicker (tied) 1911 http://www.afl.com.au/newsviews/dev...isplay/tabid/13144/newsid/110102/default.aspx
Some online sources and most books that I have (eg 100 Years of Australian Football, The Clubs, Every Game Ever Played, The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers) agree with the AFL Season Guide figure(s) [47/342]. Even the 1967 Footy Annual has him as the leading goalkicker in 1911 with 47 goals.
So, does anyone know if there's a story behind this discrepancy? I'm inclined to believe the AFL Tables/Footy Works figures are correct, but I'd like to know where this has come from. Perhaps because Gardiner kicked 47 goals the next season a mistake was made some time ago and it's been repeated over the years in official AFL and other publications?
No doubt RR will be able to improve on this response, but...
Newspaper reports on the early VFL sometimes conflict with regard to players used, goalkickers and even team scores, and as such, the official records are open to revision. The numbers I have which were taken from the AFL website's (seemingly defunct) historical stats section a couple years ago show 46 goals. Occasionally I'd refer to the 'Player Profile' section, which contained all players' names, DOBs, clubs, total games and goals, and check off the totals against what I had. Occasionally there'd be a discrepancy, and on closer inspection I'd find that where Smith had been listed as playing in Round 4 1907, the AFL now had Jones. Or that instead of Smith kicking 3 goals and Jones 2, it was now Smith 2, Jones 3. Sometimes a player's date of birth changed.
I do know that the numbers in The Encyclopedia Of AFL Footballers are the product of independent research, and in some cases conflict with the official AFL figures.
Each week in the Football Record, there's a small section that reads e.g. "The AFL is seeking information on the following players. Former Williamstown player Ted Heffernan played two matches for Carlton in 1897 as a 28-year-old. Collingwood gained a clearance from a local club for Ted Burke in 1900. His brief career consisted of three matches. Sam Baker, originally from Collingwood Juniors........If you have information on these players, please contact Col Hutchinson on..." etc. It appears that details of the early history of the game are in a state of flux.
Regarding the issue with Vin Gardiner and his 1911 goal tally, I sent an email to Michael Lovett (AFL Record Season Guide editor) a few hours ago and I’ve already received a response. It says (among other things) “Thanks for the email and your interest in the 2 subjects below. I will get AFL historian and statistics consultant Col Hutchinson to cast his eyes over it next week when he is on the office. Thanks again and will get back to you on your first 2 queries.”
When I hear something from them I'll obviously post it here. It may be from 101 years ago, but it would be nice to know for sure whether the 1911 Leading Goalkicker (At End of Finals) was Gardiner alone (on 47 goals), or he and Brereton together (46 goals).
Also, I posted something here a couple of months or so back about Leon Davis and whether or not he was officially classed as a Premiership Player. I mentioned that in the email as well, as the book did not include him on the list of such players, even though he received a medal and many people (including me) have been under the impression that he was considered a PP. The response was "However, on Leon Davis he is not a premiership player. He played in the drawn Grand Final and was omitted for the replay…only those who play in the premiership 22 are classed as premiership players."
My 2002 Encyc. has Gardiner as 342 (me 341)
Others who played in 1911
It has Ernie Jamieson as 3 (me 4)
Viv Valentine 90 (me 91)
Gordon Green 82 (me 85)
Which doesn't add up, and so annoyingly indicates some discrepancies outside 1911 as well, but suggests it's one of those three who may've nicked one of VG's goals. Are these numbers still extant in later Encyc versions?
Jamieson kicked only one in 1911, which is specifically mentioned in The Argus match report. It's a real brainbuster reading the microfilmed papers, I couldn't muster the effort to go through the games VV and GG played.
Others who played in 1911
It has Ernie Jamieson as 3 (me 4)
Viv Valentine 90 (me 91)
Gordon Green 82 (me 85)
Which doesn't add up, and so annoyingly indicates some discrepancies outside 1911 as well, but suggests it's one of those three who may've nicked one of VG's goals. Are these numbers still extant in later Encyc versions?
Jamieson kicked only one in 1911, which is specifically mentioned in The Argus match report. It's a real brainbuster reading the microfilmed papers, I couldn't muster the effort to go through the games VV and GG played.
Yes, the Encyc. of Players 9th ed. (2011) repeats the figures of 2002 ed as you show above.
At the moment am cross-checking Stephen Rodgers figures for Carlton as published in 100 Yrs of Players Volume 1...will post details found later in night.
I have the 2011 version and the goal tallies are unchanged.
Okay, that didn't take as long as I thought it might.
Here are some variations in published tallies at end of season for Carlton goalkickers in 1911 as found after comparison of Paul's AFL Tables website and Stephen Rodgers multi-volume set: 100 Years of AFL PLayers (pub. 1996).
George Bruce - Paul's list shows him as kicking 1 goal (Stephen lists him as kicking 2)
Vin Gardiner - Paul 46 (Stephen 47)
Andy McDonald - Paul 10 (Stephen 9)
Viv Valentine - Paul 14 (Stephen 13)
Cheers
Ross
Managed to dig up this page from the historical stats section, which concurs with your figures. Pretty sure this was the AFL's official position as of early last year.
http://stats.afl.com.au/public/stat...goals_2_all.shtml?club_idIndex=2&goalsIndex=0
And this for Carlton 1911
http://stats.afl.com.au/public/stat...11.shtml?club_idIndex=0&club_idValue=4&season_
In terms of the career tally and the figures for the 1911 season, Footy Works and the well done Blueseum website match the figures you have.
The Vin Gardiner page on the Blueseum site does have this, however:- Club Leading Goalkicker : 1908 (34), 1910 (42), 1911 (47), 1912 (47), 1913 (27), 1916 (44), 1917 (22)
but has 46 goals on A summary of Gardiner's playing career page, and also adds "taking his season tally to 47. That was good enough to win him both Carlton’s, and the league’s goal-kicking award."
http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Vin+Gardiner
You can also view the goalkickers round by round, e.g. http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Round+1,+1911
Blueseum gives Gardiner's returns as 1,DNP,3,1,0,1,3,2,4,1,5,2,2,1,10,2,0,5,3, for a total of 46. Suspect the goalkickers were sourced from the AFL historical pages.
It could be rather confusing trying to understand the Carlton 1911 page, if you took it on face value! I realise it's no longer being maintained, but assuming it looks now like it did when it last was properly up and running, it may have perplexed many!!
Bruce Campbell played 3 games with no goals for the club that year, but moved to Fitzroy mid-season and played 9 games for 25 goals, but it reads as if it's 12 games, 25 goals for Carlton.
Fred Elliott had 15 games 10 goals for Carlton in 1911, but he's not mentioned on the page. He was apparently the captain-coach.
Charlie Taylor had 3 games for no goals with the Blues that year, then moved to St. Kilda mid-season - 6 games 1 goal. It's shown as 9 games 1 goal on the Carlton page.
On another note, the Saints played 62 players that year - that must be up there in terms of the highest no. of players used in a season, surely?!
Good points. Don't know why Elliott doesn't appear on the list; I'm sure he did initially.
62 is the record. The Saints have the top 5 places, in seasons between 1898 and 1920.
Hmm.. even we found which games to give Bruce and Gardiner a goal each from McDonald and Valentine.. this would fix the Valentine mismatch, but then introduce two more - as McDonald's and Bruce's career tallies are agreed upon by the AFL website and the Encyc.
Does this publication have every teams' list from every year? Presumably there are more discrepancies around the 1911 era.
Yes, they always had problems there.. I can recall having to untangle a number of multiteam players.
Yes, the Stephen Rodgers publication does have team list of goalkickers for every year.
Have checked all other teams for 1911 and figures show same as your website.
However, 1910 Carlton list has a variation:
Andy McDonald - Paul's site has 19 goals (book has 20)
George Topping - Paul has 12 (book has 11)
I've started back at 1897 and am working my way through the years...
will keep you all informed if any other variations are found.
🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.
Have checked the annual lists for Carlton up to 1919.
Apart from the 1910 and 1911 variations already mentioned,
all other years show same figures on website and in book.
Somewhat of a relief I suppose !
This appeared in Kevin Taylor's Footystats recently, and I'm wondering if anyone can answer the question below? I did suggest to Kevin that he (or the reader), could try posting the query here, but as that hasn't happened, I've taken the liberty of doing that myself.
Reader Mark Pilkington has posed a question I do not have a ready answer to, can anyone help?
Mark noted that on Saturday there seemed to be an extraordinary number of Swans with high-numbered jerseys. Is there a way of finding out if this Swans team has the highest total (or average) numbers on the backs of their jumpers for a Premiership team?
Reader Mark Pilkington has posed a question I do not have a ready answer to, can anyone help?
Mark noted that on Saturday there seemed to be an extraordinary number of Swans with high-numbered jerseys. Is there a way of finding out if this Swans team has the highest total (or average) numbers on the backs of their jumpers for a Premiership team?
Here's the relevant part from the email I've just received from the AFL:-
Col Hutchinson has checked those 2 queries.
As for Vin Gardiner, he kicked 46 goals for the 1911 season (43 to the end of the H&A games). The figure on page 672 showing 44 goals for the H&A season will be changed to 43.
Unfortunately, the discrepancy occurs as the information from Champion Data to the AFL historical website takes time to adjust…a problem we are looking into!
Regarding the following issue:-
Does anyone know the definitive answer to this "mystery"? The very reliable sources Footy Works and the AFL Tables website have Bert Sharpe as having played for Fitzroy in their 1899 Grand Final winning team, other sources have Pat Descrimes in his place. The AFL Historical Statistics site names Sharpe, as does the AFL Record Season Guide 2011. Curiously, the 2009 (and earlier) versions of that book have Descrimes in the side.
The most recent version of The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers opts for Descrimes, as does this article on the Brisbane Lions website:-
This Argus report from Old Boy mentions:- "Fitzroy were without Sharpe, the players wearing black arm-bands out of respect to their comrade, who had lost his father on the previous day."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030781
Also this, on the day of the game:- "Sharpe will, however, be an absentee, owing to a family bereavement, and this fact will weaken the Fitzroy attack."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030691
I'd have thought the Argus post-match report gives the answer for sure, so if there's any more information on this subject it would be interesting to hear it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The (very modest) preview in The Age on Saturday September 16 1899 mentions "while Sharp will be out of Fitzroy owing to the death of his father." http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=18990916&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
The report from Monday September 18 only says that "Fitzroy were without the assistance of their clever little forward player, Kiernan, whose place was taken by the veteran Cleary." Neither Descrimes (or Sharpe) are mentioned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I raised this here a while ago, and was rather tardy in asking for clarification from the AFL, and only brought the subject up in the email I sent them last week. Here's the answer from the email I've just received:-
Col Hutchinson has checked those 2 queries.
Re Bert Sharpe, Col says AFL information and other newspaper reports of the day confirm Sharpe did play.
I’m a bit bewildered regarding the response to the Sharpe/Descrimes story, where it says “and other newspaper reports of the day confirm Sharpe did play.“ I’m not sure how many other newspapers (apart from The Age & The Argus) were around back then, but that’s the “official response!” Paul, I've forwarded a copy of the email I received from Michael Lovett to you.
Does anyone know the definitive answer to this "mystery"? The very reliable sources Footy Works and the AFL Tables website have Bert Sharpe as having played for Fitzroy in their 1899 Grand Final winning team, other sources have Pat Descrimes in his place. The AFL Historical Statistics site names Sharpe, as does the AFL Record Season Guide 2011. Curiously, the 2009 (and earlier) versions of that book have Descrimes in the side.
The most recent version of The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers opts for Descrimes, as does this article on the Brisbane Lions website:-
This Argus report from Old Boy mentions:- "Fitzroy were without Sharpe, the players wearing black arm-bands out of respect to their comrade, who had lost his father on the previous day."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030781
Also this, on the day of the game:- "Sharpe will, however, be an absentee, owing to a family bereavement, and this fact will weaken the Fitzroy attack."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030691
I'd have thought the Argus post-match report gives the answer for sure, so if there's any more information on this subject it would be interesting to hear it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The (very modest) preview in The Age on Saturday September 16 1899 mentions "while Sharp will be out of Fitzroy owing to the death of his father." http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=18990916&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
The report from Monday September 18 only says that "Fitzroy were without the assistance of their clever little forward player, Kiernan, whose place was taken by the veteran Cleary." Neither Descrimes (or Sharpe) are mentioned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I raised this here a while ago, and was rather tardy in asking for clarification from the AFL, and only brought the subject up in the email I sent them last week. Here's the answer from the email I've just received:-
Col Hutchinson has checked those 2 queries.
Re Bert Sharpe, Col says AFL information and other newspaper reports of the day confirm Sharpe did play.
I’m a bit bewildered regarding the response to the Sharpe/Descrimes story, where it says “and other newspaper reports of the day confirm Sharpe did play.“ I’m not sure how many other newspapers (apart from The Age & The Argus) were around back then, but that’s the “official response!” Paul, I've forwarded a copy of the email I received from Michael Lovett to you.
My guernsey number data was taken from the team lists on the AFL historical stats pages. These were subject to some inaccuracies, so don't take these lists as definitive.
Highest totals:
\1998|Ad|504|3|52|22
\2012|Sy|489|2|41|22
\1997|Ad|469|3|52|21
\1979|Ca|468|3|47|20
\1999|NM|468|4|44|22
\2009|Ge|464|2|45|22
\2010|Co|462|4|47|22
\2007|Ge|461|1|45|22
\1986|Ha|452|2|52|20
\1987|Ca|449|1|45|20
\1979|Ca|23.4|3|47|20
\1998|Ad|22.9|3|52|22
\1986|Ha|22.6|2|52|20
\1987|Ca|22.5|1|45|20
\1997|Ad|22.3|3|52|21
\1990|Co|22.3|1|44|20
\2012|Sy|22.2|2|41|22
\1988|Ha|21.6|2|44|20
\1999|NM|21.3|4|44|22
\2009|Ge|21.1|2|45|22
