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RogersResults said:
Good stuff - now how about: The highest goal tally for a quarter that had the highest number of goals in a match but not the highest points tally.
Click to expand...

Every instance of 6+ goals:

Code: 
Cb Year Rd Most g Q Highest Q Op
--------------------------------
St 1967  1 9.0.54 4 8. 7.55 2 WB
Es 1993 13 8.2.50 4 7. 9.51 3 Ri
Co 1952 16 7.2.44 4 6. 9.45 3 St
Ca 1983 16 7.1.43 2 6. 8.44 3 Fi
WB 1992  5 7.1.43 4 6. 8.44 2 NM
Ca 1922 14 6.4.40 3 5.11.41 1 Sy
Me 1945  1 6.1.37 3 5. 9.39 2 Ca
Ge 1947 12 6.1.37 3 5.12.42 2 Ha
Es 1968  4 6.1.37 2 5. 8.38 3 Sy
Co 1977 10 6.3.39 2 5.10.40 4 Sy
Co 1986  6 6.2.38 1 5. 9.39 3 Me
NM 1994 PF 6.2.38 3 5. 9.39 1 Ge
Co 2002 10 6.1.37 4 5. 9.39 1 Sy
Ge 2007  3 6.0.36 2 5. 8.38 1 Me
 
Ron The Bear said:
Every instance of 6+ goals:

Code: 
Cb Year Rd Most g Q Highest Q Op
--------------------------------
St 1967  1 9.0.54 4 8. 7.55 2 WB
Es 1993 13 8.2.50 4 7. 9.51 3 Ri
Co 1952 16 7.2.44 4 6. 9.45 3 St
Ca 1983 16 7.1.43 2 6. 8.44 3 Fi
WB 1992  5 7.1.43 4 6. 8.44 2 NM
Ca 1922 14 6.4.40 3 5.11.41 1 Sy
Me 1945  1 6.1.37 3 5. 9.39 2 Ca
Ge 1947 12 6.1.37 3 5.12.42 2 Ha
Es 1968  4 6.1.37 2 5. 8.38 3 Sy
Co 1977 10 6.3.39 2 5.10.40 4 Sy
Co 1986  6 6.2.38 1 5. 9.39 3 Me
NM 1994 PF 6.2.38 3 5. 9.39 1 Ge
Co 2002 10 6.1.37 4 5. 9.39 1 Sy
Ge 2007  3 6.0.36 2 5. 8.38 1 Me
Click to expand...

Thanks for that.
Interesting that only one of them goes above 2 points.
Geelong in the 1947 match v Hawthorn also scored 8.2 at one end and 8.19 at the other.
 
A question for R.R, as hinted in your excellent season synopsis for each side you indicate for some clubs their biggest surplus and biggest deficit against particular clubs, ie for Geelong the biggest deficit in points (combined losing margins > combined winning margins) is against Carlton.

Would you have a chart that indicates for each side the surplus/deficit against each team's respective opponents? Would make fascinating reading, if you have that info readily at hand that is. Always appreciate your excellent stats and the time you take to compile them. Really is a wealth of information for stats buffs like myself.

Would think that St.Kilda would have fearsome deficits against the Pies and Blues given they have won barely 25% of their clashes against those sides.
 

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Catsace said:
A question for R.R, as hinted in your excellent season synopsis for each side you indicate for some clubs their biggest surplus and biggest deficit against particular clubs, ie for Geelong the biggest deficit in points (combined losing margins > combined winning margins) is against Carlton.

Would you have a chart that indicates for each side the surplus/deficit against each team's respective opponents? Would make fascinating reading, if you have that info readily at hand that is. Always appreciate your excellent stats and the time you take to compile them. Really is a wealth of information for stats buffs like myself.

Would think that St.Kilda would have fearsome deficits against the Pies and Blues given they have won barely 25% of their clashes against those sides.
Click to expand...

I can easily produce them but haven't because they have already in effect been done here: e.g.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/teams/geelong/overall_wl.html

Total points for and against v all opponents are there (and on each team's page) but at the moment there is not a column for the margin, so for now you have to do your own sums. The tables copy easily and can be pasted as text into a spreadsheet program where you can add a column to do the calculation.

(St Kilda's deficit v Collingwood is 4,431 and v Carlton 4,177)
 
Does anybody have the Under 19s ladder for the inaugural season of 1946? Just the win-loss-draw record of each team would be sufficient.
 
worbod said:
Does anybody have the Under 19s ladder for the inaugural season of 1946? Just the win-loss-draw record of each team would be sufficient.
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Possibly not.

As you have no doubt found out the Football Record of 1946 carries no results or progressive ladders and The Argus and The Age also do not print results or ladders of the 1946 League Thirds competition. With the Record not publishing them it is unlikely that the League has retained any record of them from 1946.

Space in the newspapers was tight at the time with few $US to buy newsprint and British banks unable or unwilling to loan money for the plant to process Australian native hardwood into newsprint. However, The Age found room to print the results of the Preston Juniors B Grade competition where in the Monday 3 June 1946 edition you can discover that Preston Boys 38.27 defeated East Preston 0.1 - but apparently they had no room for the League thirds.

If you have not already done so, you could try The Sporting Globe which is available at the State Library of Victoria.

The whole status of the VFL Thirds in 1946 seems a bit "iffy". Collingwood for one didn't have a Thirds team in 1946 and baseball was still being played as a curtain-raiser at a number of grounds.
 
Originally Posted by worbod
Does anybody have the Under 19s ladder for the inaugural season of 1946? Just the win-loss-draw record of each team would be sufficient.
Click to expand...
"The Third Eighteens premiership list at the end of the first round is as follows:—Melbourne 44, North Melbourne 40, Carlton 32, Essendon 28, Richmond 16, St. Kilda 8, Hawthorn 4."

Football Record Sept 7 1946.

No indication of number of matches played/won/lost/drawn given.

Note: In other seasons I have noticed that match points were awarded for abandoned matches in the Thirds. (The very wet year of 1952 had a number of Thirds 'abandoned' matches.)
 
Thanks for looking into the Under 19s first season in as much detail as you have so far. I was hoping for the win-loss numbers as this would allow each team's complete Under 19 win-loss record (1946-1991) to be calculated. I intend to have a look at the Sporting Globe microfilm, as suggested, but will have to wait until the Christmas break to get the chance to travel there.
 
worbod said:
Thanks for looking into the Under 19s first season in as much detail as you have so far. I was hoping for the win-loss numbers as this would allow each team's complete Under 19 win-loss record (1946-1991) to be calculated. I intend to have a look at the Sporting Globe microfilm, as suggested, but will have to wait until the Christmas break to get the chance to travel there.
Click to expand...

At the beginning of 1946 there was some re-organisation of control of junior football involving the Junior Football League, the League sub-district competitions and the VFL. The League Thirds seems to have come into existence as part of this but not with the same status that it had later.

The State Library of Victoria may have other resources to suggest if the Sporting Globe is a blank for 1946. (They have a photo of the Nth Melbourne Thirds premiership team of 1946!)
 
Does anyone know the definitive answer to this "mystery"? The very reliable sources Footy Works and the AFL Tables website have Bert Sharpe as having played for Fitzroy in their 1899 Grand Final winning team, other sources have Pat Descrimes in his place. The AFL Historical Statistics site names Sharpe, as does the AFL Record Season Guide 2011. Curiously, the 2009 (and earlier) versions of that book have Descrimes in the side.

The most recent version of The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers opts for Descrimes, as does this article on the Brisbane Lions website:- http://www.lions.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5085/newsid/23725/default.aspx

This Argus report from Old Boy mentions:- "Fitzroy were without Sharpe, the players wearing black arm-bands out of respect to their comrade, who had lost his father on the previous day."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030781

Also this, on the day of the game:- "Sharpe will, however, be an absentee, owing to a family bereavement, and this fact will weaken the Fitzroy attack."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030691

I'd have thought the Argus post-match report gives the answer for sure, so if there's any more information on this subject it would be interesting to hear it.
 
35Daicos said:
Does anyone know the definitive answer to this "mystery". The very reliable sources Footy Works and the AFL Tables website have Bert Sharpe as having played for Fitzroy in their 1899 Grand Final winning team, other sources have Pat Descrimes in his place. The AFL Historical Statistics site names Sharpe, as does the AFL Record Season Guide 2011. Curiously, the 2009 (and earlier) versions of that book have Descrimes in the side.

The most recent version of The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers opts for Descrimes, as does this article on the Brisbane Lions website:- http://www.lions.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5085/newsid/23725/default.aspx

This Argus report from Old Boy mentions:- "Fitzroy were without Sharpe, the players wearing black arm-bands out of respect to their comrade, who had lost his father on the previous day."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030781

Also this, on the day of the game:- "Sharpe will, however, be an absentee, owing to a family bereavement, and this fact will weaken the Fitzroy attack."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9030691

I'd have thought the Argus post-match report gives the answer for sure, so if there's any more information on this subject it would be interesting to hear it.
Click to expand...

You have highlighted the fact that just because something is in print does not mean it is correct.

It was only with the introduction of the Football Record in 1912 that records and statistics of the League were begun to be collected. Much of this was done by looking through editions of past newspapers. Newspapers however are not strictly speaking a primary source but are often the only source. Newspapers because of the pressure of meeting deadlines etc. often have mistakes and on occasion deliberate misinformation.

Of the sources you mention, the Holmesby and Main, Encyclopedia would have done the most original research and consulted the greater variety of sources. The other 'sources' you mention would have relied primarily on the work of Holmesby and Main. But they too are not without errors and ommissions.

'Old Boy' (W.E. Wilmot) in the Argus had a reputation for reliability but was essentially a 'reporter' who may not necessarily have been given correct information all the time or had time to verify it. Today you have people like Andrew Bolt who just make things up for political purposes.

Realise too that many 'facts' once published are copied and copied again and again in future editions of reference works without any further checking or verification. Encyclopedias were notorious for doing this, including prestigious ones like Britannica.

That the AFL Record Guide 2011 had Sharpe back in the side may indicate new research or the team being copied from a source before Holmesby and Main discovered that he had dropped out and was replaced by Descrimes.

The AFL Record Season Guide too is also prone to errors and for instance does not completely correctly report the finals system as it operated prior to 1931.

The AFL Historical Stats site has the nonsense that matches began at 2.10 pm from 1897. Which led to the Herald-Sun recently to publish a nonsense article with the false premise that 2.10 pm had been the "traditional" starting time for the League's matches for more than a century.

Disillusioning isn't it?

Meanwhile, have you checked the Google News Archive for The Age's account of the 1899 Grand Final teams? If that agrees with The Argus and the 2011 edition of the Encyclopedia then you could get in touch with the AFL Record Season Guide and suggest that they may be in error.
 

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RogersResults said:
That the AFL Record Guide 2011 had Sharpe back in the side may indicate new research or the team being copied from a source before Holmesby and Main discovered that he had dropped out and was replaced by Descrimes.

The AFL Record Season Guide too is also prone to errors and for instance does not completely correctly report the finals system as it operated prior to 1931.

The AFL Historical Stats site has the nonsense that matches began at 2.10 pm from 1897. Which led to the Herald-Sun recently to publish a nonsense article with the false premise that 2.10 pm had been the "traditional" starting time for the League's matches for more than a century.

Disillusioning isn't it?

Meanwhile, have you checked the Google News Archive for The Age's account of the 1899 Grand Final teams? If that agrees with The Argus and the 2011 edition of the Encyclopedia then you could get in touch with the AFL Record Season Guide and suggest that they may be in error.
Click to expand...

The (very modest) preview in The Age on Saturday September 16 1899 mentions "while Sharp will be out of Fitzroy owing to the death of his father." http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=18990916&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The report from Monday September 18 only says that "Fitzroy were without the assistance of their clever little forward player, Kiernan, whose place was taken by the veteran Cleary." Neither Descrimes (or Sharpe) are mentioned.

I have indeed noticed the "occasional error" on the AFL Historical Stats site and in the AFL Record Season Guide, but I'd certainly like to know just why the Fitzroy lineup was changed in the book a year or so back.
 
35Daicos said:
The (very modest) preview in The Age on Saturday September 16 1899 mentions "while Sharp will be out of Fitzroy owing to the death of his father." http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=18990916&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The report from Monday September 18 only says that "Fitzroy were without the assistance of their clever little forward player, Kiernan, whose place was taken by the veteran Cleary." Neither Descrimes (or Sharpe) are mentioned.

I have indeed noticed the "occasional error" on the AFL Historical Stats site and in the AFL Record Season Guide, but I'd certainly like to know just why the Fitzroy lineup was changed in the book a year or so back.
Click to expand...

As with all stories Mr. Descrimes' had an end. Here is his obituary from the Argus of Jan. 7 1939 - will it confirm his status as a 1899 Premiership player?

MR. P. J. DESCRIMES
The death occurred yesterday of Mr. Patrick J. Descrimes, of Royal avenue, Glenhuntly, a former player and official of the Fitzroy Football Club. Mr. Descrimes first played with Fitzroy in 1897, and was elected a commiteeman in 1902. For four years he was treasurer of the club.


Unfortunately no.


As for the change in the AFL Season Guide, you can ask them when you send in your correction. Someone probably just copied the Fitzroy team from an earlier incorrect version.

Addition: The Fitzroy City Press Thursday 14th Sept. 1899 reports the death of Bert Sharpe's father, "this morning", has a moan about the match being played at St Kilda, mentions that Chris Kiernan was training twice that week in an endeavour to play - meaning that should he prove fit the team would have the dilemma of who to leave out.

The following week the Fitzroy City Press carries an account of the grand final and the 'Mayoral Smoke' in honour of the team - but not mention of Sharpe or Descrimes.
 
Was mentioned today that Geelong have never beaten Sydney in a final since the inception of the clubs. Any truth to it?

Looking back over the last 30 years we've only played them once in a final and that was the 05 win. So maybe we've only played them once in a final throughout history :)
 
Riders of Rohan said:
Was mentioned today that Geelong have never beaten Sydney in a final since the inception of the clubs. Any truth to it?

Looking back over the last 30 years we've only played them once in a final and that was the 05 win. So maybe we've only played them once in a final throughout history :)
Click to expand...

Also:

1914 Semi-Final defeated Geelong 5.14 to 5.8
1934 Preliminary final defeated Geelong 15.18 to 7.6

1906-1926 (21 matches) undefeated against Geelong at the Sth Melbourne Cricket Ground (Lake Oval)
 
Can anyone let me know teams that have lost back to back grand finals but won the following year. Hawthorn is the only side I can think of that has done this (1984-1986).

Thanks
 
Thanks Ron for the quick reply.

I half suspected that Collingwood would be in the list, given its Grand Final record.
 
Does anyone know the player who has played in the most finals matches, but not a grand final?

I am thinking that this player could be a Crow (finals every year of the 2000s except 2000 & 2004 but no GF); an Eagle (finals in 8 of 10 seasons without a GF appearance in 1995-2004 inclusive) or a Bulldog (a regular finalist for the last 20 years without playing in a GF in this time) but if somebody could please confirm it, this would be great.
 
emuboy said:
Does anyone know the player who has played in the most finals matches, but not a grand final?
Click to expand...

Code: 
Fn Player          Club(s)     Career
--------------------------------------
21 Johnson, Brad    WB       1994-2010
18 Clarke, Matthew  Br,Ad,St 1993-2007
15 Grant, Chris     WB       1990-2007
14 Gehrig, Fraser   WC,St    1995-2008
13 Liberatore, Tony WB       1986-2002
13 Eagleton, Nathan PA,WB    1997-2010
13 Burton, Brett    Ad       1999-2010
13 Johncock, Graham Ad       2002-2011
12 Newman, John     Ge       1964-1980
12 Smith, Rohan H.  WB       1992-2006
12 West, Scott      WB       1993-2008
12 Bassett, Nathan  Ad       1998-2008
12 Shirley, Robert  Ad       2000-2009
 
Ron The Bear said:
Excluding early 'round robin' finals:

Code: 
Fn Player          Club(s)     Career
--------------------------------------
21 Johnson, Brad    WB       1994-2010
18 Clarke, Matthew  Br,Ad,St 1993-2007
15 Grant, Chris     WB       1990-2007
14 Gehrig, Fraser   WC,St    1995-2008
13 Liberatore, Tony WB       1986-2002
13 Eagleton, Nathan PA,WB    1997-2010
13 Burton, Brett    Ad       1999-2010
13 Johncock, Graham Ad       2002-2011
12 Newman, John     Ge       1964-1980
12 Smith, Rohan H.  WB       1992-2006
12 West, Scott      WB       1993-2008
12 Bassett, Nathan  Ad       1998-2008
12 Shirley, Robert  Ad       2000-2009


Including round robin matches:

Code: 
Fn RR Player          Club(s)    Career
----------------------------------------
28 23 Young, Henry    Ge       1897-1910 
25 20 Rankin, Teddy   Ge       1897-1910 
24 22 Sowden, Arthur  Me       1899-1906 
24 24 Smith, Jimmy M. St       1899-1909 
22 22 McCabe, Dick    Fi,St,Sy 1897-1907 
21    Johnson, Brad   WB       1994-2010 
19 17 Cowell, Jim     St,Me    1902-1909 
18    Clarke, Matthew Br,Ad,St 1993-2007 
18 16 Donaghy, Mick   Ca,Ge    1898-1905 
18 16 Newling, Ernest Ge       1900-1910 
17 13 Baxter, Ben     Es       1902-1906 
17 16 Stephens, Peter Ge       1902-1908 
16 13 Eason, Bill     Ge       1902-1915
16 16 Coutie, Vin     Me       1901-1911
Click to expand...

Thanks Ron The Bear.

One has to wonder what would be the most frustrating for players with long careers:

No Finals (ie Trevor Barker, Geoff Cunningham, Jeff Hogg, Steven Smith, Ted Pool)
Many Finals with No GF (Brad Johsnon, Matthew Clarke, Chris Grant)
Playing in Multiple Losing GF's without a Win (Rene Kink, Jason McCartney, Michael Gardiner)
 
Ron The Bear said:
Including round robin matches:

Code: 
Fn RR Player          Club(s)    Career
----------------------------------------
28 23 Young, Henry    Ge       1897-1910 
25 20 Rankin, Teddy   Ge       1897-1910 
24 22 Sowden, Arthur  Me       1899-1906 
24 24 Smith, Jimmy M. St       1899-1909 
22 22 McCabe, Dick    Fi,St,Sy 1897-1907 
21    Johnson, Brad   WB       1994-2010 
19 17 Cowell, Jim     St,Me    1902-1909 
18    Clarke, Matthew Br,Ad,St 1993-2007 
18 16 Donaghy, Mick   Ca,Ge    1898-1905 
18 16 Newling, Ernest Ge       1900-1910 
17 13 Baxter, Ben     Es       1902-1906 
17 16 Stephens, Peter Ge       1902-1908 
16 13 Eason, Bill     Ge       1902-1915
16 16 Coutie, Vin     Me       1901-1911
Click to expand...

For those who may not be familiar with what was going on in the early years of the League.

Round Robin matches where all the teams still in contention for the Premiership play each other once in a circular series of matches have only occurred in the 1897 and 1924 seasons, where the top 4 on the ladder after the first round of matches (home and away) played the other three once to produce a 'Premiership Ladder'.

The League does not count the sectional matches* 1898-1900 where the results produced two sectional ladders to determine the finalists nor the sectional matches 1901-1907 where the results were added to the existing ladder to determine the "final four" as "finals". The true Round Robin series in 1897 where the top four all played each other once (as was also the case in 1924) are counted towards each participating club's tally of finals series. Participation in sectional matches are not included in the tally.

There could be a case made for the sectional matches of 1898-1900 to be classed as "finals" because in effect the previous 14 matches counted for nothing, but the League has determined otherwise. The 1898-1900 sectional matches were also not true Round Robins as teams still in the competition only played half of the other teams still in contention.

* In effect a redraw after each team had played each other twice for the last 3 rounds before the finals. Positions 1,3,5,7 played each other once in Section A and positions 2,4,6,8 were in Section B.
 
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