Universal Love Steve Silvagni - List Manager Extraordinaire

[Jeremias]

Agree I think he is a stop gap at best.

I'd be interested to know how you've come to that conclusion. I think it's too harsh to call Lang a stop gap, let alone a stop gap at best.

First round draft pick who turned 22 not long ago so there's every chance he's still got plenty of development in him. Was a semi-regular at a top 4 side albeit in a position where he clearly believes he's not best suited, hence moving on for greater midfield opportunities.

I continue to be surprised by just how many Carlton supporters are down on this guy, and I think he'll surprise plenty. Just two months ago he was sensational in a semi-final having been recalled after 10 weeks out of the side. The talent is very clearly there, the consistency however is lacking.

He may not become a star but he's certainly no Smedts and he does have more to his game than Kerridge who is a limited footballer.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

My gut feel on this bloke is that he has been recruited to play a role for us for a limited time whilst our kids develop. He played a good final last year to try and earn another contract! He appears to lack the want and I suspect that SOS after having no luck with Kelly/Smith grabbed Lang to atleast try and help Cripps out. My view is he is a stop gap and I hope I'm wrong and he rejuvenates himself at Carlton and grabs hold of his 2nd chance.

 

[TooBlue14]

My gut feel on this bloke is that he has been recruited to play a role for us for a limited time whilst our kids develop. He played a good final last year to try and earn another contract! He appears to lack the want and I suspect that SOS after having no luck with Kelly/Smith grabbed Lang to atleast try and help Cripps out. My view is he is a stop gap and I hope I'm wrong and he rejuvenates himself at Carlton and grabs hold of his 2nd chance.

Lacks the want?? Curious how you cane up with that. Injured for most of 2017. Was best 22 at Geelong (a top 4 side) before being injured, spent 10 weeks out, and returned swiftly to which he was near best on ground for Geelong in a finals loss. There’s probably only 6 players better on our list right now.

 

[thylacine60]

be closer to 10

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Lacks the want?? Curious how you cane up with that. Injured for most of 2017. Was best 22 at Geelong (a top 4 side) before being injured, spent 10 weeks out, and returned swiftly to which he was near best on ground for Geelong in a finals loss. There’s probably only 6 players better on our list right now.

He's been in the system for 4-5 years, he has had injuries but reasonable Cat's supporters will tell you he has not come on like hoped for and they stumped up a first rounder for him. Some footballers make things happen for them, ie they want to make it. Lang was not showing this at a consistent level. Best 22 Bullshit, he played one good game in the final only because one of their first choice midfielders was injured. I am happy for you to prove me wrong here with facts.

6 players only on our list better than this bloke you're having a laugh surely.

Murphy,Cripps,Simmo,Kruezer,Docherty,Ed,Wright,Jones,SPS,Rowe,Plowman,Marchbank,Weitering,Charlie are all ahead of this bloke.

As I have stated previously I hope he makes me eat my words. It would be great for Carlton.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Murphy,Cripps,Simmo,Kruezer,Docherty,Ed,Wright,Jones,SPS,Rowe,Plowman,Marchbank,Weitering,Charlie are all ahead of this bloke.

As I have stated previously I hope he makes me eat my words. It would be great for Carlton.

There is no point BAT saying Weitering, Kreuzer, Jones, Docherty, Plowman, Marchbank, Jones and Charlie are all ‘better’ than Lang. So what if they are if our midfield can’t get the pill?

Our midfield does not bat that deep: Cripps, Murphy, Ed ... then Kennedy, Lang, SPS, ... and I guess Fisher, Cuningham, Dow ... Charlie and Williamson if we play them there, ... and outside run in Pickett, Garlett and O’Brien.
Perhaps Polson ... then it’s Graham, Kerridge and Thomas.

In terms if the list:
- Rowe will be lucky to get a senior 22 match this year or be kept on after 2018. In any event, I think he will retire after Season 2018.
- Simmo I think he will retire after Season 2018.
- Wright I think will be pushed out of the Best 22 over the course of this year but stays on the list as handy depth.

IMO Lang starts and stays on the wing in our Senior 22 with SPS on the other wing, both rotating into the center square and then into the forward pocket.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

watching the Swans v Cats final all i was thinking to myself was, 'Geelong are never going to let Lang go now.'

Not only did they let him go, they basically gave him to us for nothing! A former first round pick who literally just stamped himself on a big final and the Cats hand him over so easily? Had to have something to do with the other deals we made with Geelong.

Thought very much the same watching him live at that final too.

 

[chuncey]

Lacks the want?? Curious how you cane up with that. Injured for most of 2017. Was best 22 at Geelong (a top 4 side) before being injured, spent 10 weeks out, and returned swiftly to which he was near best on ground for Geelong in a finals loss. There’s probably only 6 players better on our list right now.

I'm almost certain Lang was very good in the final Geelong won, and next to useless in the one they lost.

 

[My name geoff]

I'm almost certain Lang was very good in the final Geelong won, and next to useless in the one they lost.

Next to useless, but was still Geelong's 2nd highest scorer, 4th highest tackles, 5th for clearances, 9th for goal assists, 9th for contested possessions, 10th for inside 50s, was one of the 10 Geelong players who was able to take a contested mark (Hawkins was not one of them)

Only 5 Geelong players managed to hit the scoreboard more than once and Lang did so 4 times.

So a 21 y.o. was top 10 in 2/3 of stats listed for Geelong in a preliminary final, away, against rampant opposition. Seems like a player on the up to me.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Next to useless, but was still Geelong's 2nd highest scorer, 4th highest tackles, 5th for clearances, 9th for goal assists, 9th for contested possessions, 10th for inside 50s, was one of the 10 Geelong players who was able to take a contested mark (Hawkins was not one of them)

Only 5 Geelong players managed to hit the scoreboard more than once and Lang did so 4 times.

So a 21 y.o. was top 10 in 2/3 of stats listed for Geelong in a preliminary final, away, against rampant opposition. Seems like a player on the up to me.

I hope he is Geoff and I for one will be the first to come back and say I was wrong about him. Let's be honest he should get his chance in our midfield.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Happy to take Lang and hope he turns out. Just did a compare against Cuningham for the current season. Pretty similar. Cuningham has a year almost 2 years up his sleeve development-wise.

More excited about Cuningham. But hope Lang finds his feet with us and improves fast.

 

[Weiterbot23]

I don't think Lang will be any good, more of a kerridge depth type, but he could be the pleasant surprise of 2018.

Things can change quickly in a year (Jones rise to AA caliber, Stingers fall to sh1t tatt scum bag), Lang could surprise many.

As far as midfield ops go, he'd probs be just as far back in the que for us as he was at Geelong (despite their obvious star power), Murphy, Cripps, Curnow, Kennedy, SPS, Dow would be ahead or get opportunities ahead

 

[CJMB]

I'd be interested to know how you've come to that conclusion. I think it's too harsh to call Lang a stop gap, let alone a stop gap at best.

First round draft pick who turned 22 not long ago so there's every chance he's still got plenty of development in him. Was a semi-regular at a top 4 side albeit in a position where he clearly believes he's not best suited, hence moving on for greater midfield opportunities.

I continue to be surprised by just how many Carlton supporters are down on this guy, and I think he'll surprise plenty. Just two months ago he was sensational in a semi-final having been recalled after 10 weeks out of the side. The talent is very clearly there, the consistency however is lacking.

He may not become a star but he's certainly no Smedts and he does have more to his game than Kerridge who is a limited footballer.

I think some might begetting sucked into the Smedts comparison as it is an easy one to make; 1st round drafted player acquired from Geelong. It's the other details that probably mean more. When he's been fit he's been best 22 for the few years, unlike Smedts who was very much a depth player and only played a handful of games in his last couple of years at the Cats. Nearly all of his stats are notably up on Smedts' output. We chased Lang for 2 years but we never wanted Smedts, he was just the player we had to accept to get that deal done so we could move on to GWS.

I also think Geelong tend to have a history of facilitating trades for players who want out. Similar to Menzel, Lang had a contract at Geelong there if he wanted to stay but Geelong were ok with him leaving for opportunities and would make it happen. Don't blame him for wanting out, this year he probably would have been behind Dangerfield, Ablett, J Selwood, Duncan, Guthrie, Menengola and possibly S Selwood. That's a pretty handy midfield group to say the least.

I think I actually like that he wanted to stay the first time because he backed himself to be a part of the cats mid group. This year the little interviews with him on the Carlton media he's come across as a pretty driven and confident guy who seems to back himself. I've got a good feeling about him for this year.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

I've derailed this thread sorry

 

[thylacine60]

nane

 

[Gethelred]

Looking at Silvagni at the Touhy deal is interesting. I have no issues with what Silvagni 'planned' to do and what he 'expected' to get out of it. Ultimately, it didn't pan out how he wanted but his thinking and strategy were 'excellent'.

I do think Carlton low balled Tuohy to use him as leverage to get more decent picks. Tuohy did what he is allowed and picked a club with no picks. Has gone on to another level at a new club...better than he was at Carlton.

All we can do is review Silvagni's thinking at the time....we had Simpson and Docherty (and Byrne recovering in the wings to replace Simpson). Silvagni tried to use the over supply to help with our rebuild. It did backfire...no doubt. BUT, his thinking gives me great confidence as he earmarked a strategy that is smart. He is looking at every avenue, looking at the detail on where he can make gains....W Hughes wouldn't have even thought about the possibility!

Silvagni wont win every situation...but everything points to him winning a high percentage!

Go blues

Prove it.

Doesn't play the same role there as he did here. Was our defensive back pocket, not our offensive pivot; we have Docherty/Simpson doing that. Averages 4 and a half possessions more there, in his first season with them, while they're at the top of the ladder and they're actively looking to get the ball in his hands.

Don't listen to the media when they're running their 'player x is better now than he was at Carlton' malarkey. With the possible exception of Eddie Betts and/or Sam Jacobs, it's not true, and with Eddie compare his 2011-12 averages with his seasons at Adelaide; getting just .5 more possessions a match whilst giving away more frees. It's lazy, and it's obviously aimed at raising our ire rather than actually analysing how they underrate players while they play for us and only when they leave do they admit that some of our mob can actually play worth a damn.

 

[thylacine60]

when even a grigg improves as a player it's pretty easy to see that a better team/coach/structure/development will most often get a player to a higher level of footy - not always perhaps but have a look at our team's struggles over the past little bit - where do you think you'd perform better?

 

[Gethelred]

when even a grigg improves as a player it's pretty easy to see that a better team/coach/structure/development will most often get a player to a higher level of footy - not always perhaps but have a look at our team's struggles over the past little bit - where do you think you'd perform better?

Statistically, he's improved, but it's marginal.

Seriously, he has two outlier years - 2012 and 2016 - where he averages 25.5 and 24.3 respectively, but apart from that he hovers at around 21 disposals a match, his average when he left Carlton in 2010. He gets .2 more goals, .4 more behinds; he lays .7 more tackles, but he also makes 1-2 more clangers per match on average and concedes almost twice the frees at Richmond.

Suffice to say, they got the player they bought, and we were happy to let him go. To say that he's improved is true, but he didn't grow a leg or become a linebreaker. He's the player he was when he left us, maybe 1-5% better in some ways, but that's it.

 

[thylacine60]

he certainly fits into their team make-up better than he ever did in ours - I think you would have to say his team performances have improved - does that make sense?

 

[thylacine60]

There is no point BAT saying Weitering, Kreuzer, Jones, Docherty, Plowman, Marchbank, Jones and Charlie are all ‘better’ than Lang. So what if they are if our midfield can’t get the pill?

Our midfield does not bat that deep: Cripps, Murphy, Ed ... then Kennedy, Lang, SPS, ... and I guess Fisher, Cuningham, Dow ... Charlie and Williamson if we play them there, ... and outside run in Pickett, Garlett and O’Brien.
Perhaps Polson ... then it’s Graham, Kerridge and Thomas.

In terms if the list:
- Rowe will be lucky to get a senior 22 match this year or be kept on after 2018. In any event, I think he will retire after Season 2018.
- Simmo I think he will retire after Season 2018.
- Wright I think will be pushed out of the Best 22 over the course of this year but stays on the list as handy depth.

IMO Lang starts and stays on the wing in our Senior 22 with SPS on the other wing, both rotating into the center square and then into the forward pocket.

my hope is he becomes as good as hickmott (yeah) - we owe those bastards from happy valley quite a bit - mansfield (chapman) clarke, smedts et al - although we had a couple of big wins with carrots & diesel

 

[Gethelred]

he certainly fits into their team make-up better than he ever did in ours - I think you would have to say his team performances have improved - does that make sense?

I don't remember enough of those days to comment, really, and what I do remember is that he seemed hesitant and unwilling to make a mistake. He looked on tenderhooks the whole time; I used to think Aaron Joseph and Andrew McInnes looked the same way, just before they finished up.

It certainly makes sense, and while I have significant regard for statistics they don't tell the whole story some of the time. It just point blank bothers me how we constantly get pasted for having a shit list over the last decade and three quarters but the second a player leaves they're the second coming. You know it's coming, and I tell myself not to bite, but every single time it gets me...

'Spose I should learn to grow up a bit.

 

[My name geoff]

I don't think Lang will be any good, more of a kerridge depth type, but he could be the pleasant surprise of 2018.

Things can change quickly in a year (Jones rise to AA caliber, Stingers fall to sh1t tatt scum bag), Lang could surprise many.

As far as midfield ops go, he'd probs be just as far back in the que for us as he was at Geelong (despite their obvious star power), Murphy, Cripps, Curnow, Kennedy, SPS, Dow would be ahead or get opportunities ahead

Watch Lang closely in his highlights package, one thing which stands out is he doesn't panic or look frantic even when the situation is warranted. Always takes his time to execute and does so in a very cool manner. Something Kerridge is not (Cuningham is) famous for.

 

[j-top]

I don't remember enough of those days to comment, really, and what I do remember is that he seemed hesitant and unwilling to make a mistake. He looked on tenderhooks the whole time; I used to think Aaron Joseph and Andrew McInnes looked the same way, just before they finished up.

It certainly makes sense, and while I have significant regard for statistics they don't tell the whole story some of the time. It just point blank bothers me how we constantly get pasted for having a shit list over the last decade and three quarters but the second a player leaves they're the second coming. You know it's coming, and I tell myself not to bite, but every single time it gets me...

'Spose I should learn to grow up a bit.

Better prepare yourself for the Gibbs comments that will come

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

As it's been said, Tuohy has been a very good player for a very long time. He just plays a role now where they get more cheap possessions (similar to Doc for us) so he is always going to look better.

 

[My name geoff]

As it's been said, Tuohy has been a very good player for a very long time. He just plays a role now where they get more cheap possessions (similar to Doc for us) so he is always going to look better.

There is a reason why basically every Irish player starts their career across half back, and it's not because they have exceptional kicking skills(which a lot of them do)