Universal Love Steve Silvagni - List Manager Extraordinaire

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My name geoff said:
There is a reason why basically every Irish player starts their career across half back, and it's not because they have exceptional kicking skills(which a lot of them do)
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What reason is that ?
 
Gethelred said:
Prove it.

Doesn't play the same role there as he did here. Was our defensive back pocket, not our offensive pivot; we have Docherty/Simpson doing that. Averages 4 and a half possessions more there, in his first season with them, while they're at the top of the ladder and they're actively looking to get the ball in his hands.

Don't listen to the media when they're running their 'player x is better now than he was at Carlton' malarkey. With the possible exception of Eddie Betts and/or Sam Jacobs, it's not true, and with Eddie compare his 2011-12 averages with his seasons at Adelaide; getting just .5 more possessions a match whilst giving away more frees. It's lazy, and it's obviously aimed at raising our ire rather than actually analysing how they underrate players while they play for us and only when they leave do they admit that some of our mob can actually play worth a damn.
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I'm really not sure what you are arguing here. And you have stated my case for me. I said the basic statement of 'he has gone to a new level at his new club.' You said prove it. I haven't said he has gone to all star status or anything. Guy was a middling fringe 22 player with us who lost out to Doch/simmo. Now he is entrenched best 22 at a top 4 club. My statement is a no brainer!

Changing role slightly at his new club is inconsequential. He is a rebounding defender that runs up the ground. He did that at our club but we obviously preferred the ball in Doch's hands. Again inconsequential as I didn't introduce that aspect to my point.

If it helps...I easily prefer Doch and Simpson as footballers on our list, and agreed with shopping Tuohy.

My point is a basic one that stands up...he has hit new heights at his new club....based on 1) my eyesight, 2) commentator feedback (yes significantly biased) and 3) a big increase in stats of all types.

I don't care that Geelong used him more as a qtr back than at Carlton. It's irrelevant . Guy had a lot to prove there and played on edge all year.
 

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BlueRenaissance said:
My point is a basic one that stands up...he has hit new heights at his new club....based on 1) my eyesight, 2) commentator feedback (yes significantly biased) and 3) a big increase in stats of all types.

I don't care that Geelong used him more as a qtr back than at Carlton. It's irrelevant . Guy had a lot to prove there and played on edge all year.
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Your issue's the bolded.

He hasn't exploded statswise; that is, unless you've access to Champion Data's hidden stuff, and if you have please share. In the one season he's played for the cats, there are three notable statistical differences (where he is more than on average more or less than .5 away from his Carlton averages) in his play; his possessions (Zac averaged 20.1 in his last season with us; 24.6 last year) his marking (he takes one additional mark more a match) and his clangers (Averages 2.7 at Geelong; averaged 1.9 for us). Everything else sits within that margin, and most sits at his career averages.

This is despite the change in roles to becoming more an attacking pivot than the defensive back pocket he was for us; attacking hbf get more of the ball than their lockdown counterparts. You also asserted in your post that he was a 'middling fringe 22 player' for us; since 2013, he has played every single game he was available for. If he was fringe, this is an odd statistic, no?

So, when I disagree with you that he hasn't hit new heights, I'm basing it on the fact that the change in his output can be attributed to his change in role, as is evidenced by his stats. He is not a better player at Geelong than he was at Carlton, and it's more than just hyperbole to say he is; it's falling into a narrative pattern, a discourse, which the media loves to propagate.

That you don't care that they changed his role doesn't diminish its relevance.
 
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He also looked better in Navy Blue.

Blue and white hoops look s**t
 
BlueRenaissance said:
Guy was a middling fringe 22 player with us who lost out to Doch/simmo. Now he is entrenched best 22 at a top 4 club.
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Are you talking about Tuohy here? The guy played probably every game for four seasons and was 3rd in our BnF the year before he was traded. Far from a middling fringe player at Carlton.
 
Gethelred said:
Your issue's the bolded.

He hasn't exploded statswise; that is, unless you've access to Champion Data's hidden stuff, and if you have please share. In the one season he's played for the cats, there are three notable statistical differences (where he is more than on average more or less than .5 away from his Carlton averages) in his play; his possessions (Zac averaged 20.1 in his last season with us; 24.6 last year) his marking (he takes one additional mark more a match) and his clangers (Averages 2.7 at Geelong; averaged 1.9 for us). Everything else sits within that margin, and most sits at his career averages.

This is despite the change in roles to becoming more an attacking pivot than the defensive back pocket he was for us; attacking hbf get more of the ball than their lockdown counterparts. You also asserted in your post that he was a 'middling fringe 22 player' for us; since 2013, he has played every single game he was available for. If he was fringe, this is an odd statistic, no?

So, when I disagree with you that he hasn't hit new heights, I'm basing it on the fact that the change in his output can be attributed to his change in role, as is evidenced by his stats. He is not a better player at Geelong than he was at Carlton, and it's more than just hyperbole to say he is; it's falling into a narrative pattern, a discourse, which the media loves to propagate.

That you don't care that they changed his role doesn't diminish its relevance.
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That is a savage takedown
 
Gethelred said:
Your issue's the bolded.

He hasn't exploded statswise; that is, unless you've access to Champion Data's hidden stuff, and if you have please share. In the one season he's played for the cats, there are three notable statistical differences (where he is more than on average more or less than .5 away from his Carlton averages) in his play; his possessions (Zac averaged 20.1 in his last season with us; 24.6 last year) his marking (he takes one additional mark more a match) and his clangers (Averages 2.7 at Geelong; averaged 1.9 for us). Everything else sits within that margin, and most sits at his career averages.

This is despite the change in roles to becoming more an attacking pivot than the defensive back pocket he was for us; attacking hbf get more of the ball than their lockdown counterparts. You also asserted in your post that he was a 'middling fringe 22 player' for us; since 2013, he has played every single game he was available for. If he was fringe, this is an odd statistic, no?

So, when I disagree with you that he hasn't hit new heights, I'm basing it on the fact that the change in his output can be attributed to his change in role, as is evidenced by his stats. He is not a better player at Geelong than he was at Carlton, and it's more than just hyperbole to say he is; it's falling into a narrative pattern, a discourse, which the media loves to propagate.

That you don't care that they changed his role doesn't diminish its relevance.
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You are being a little loose with your analysis and difficult. His disposals went up by 4.5 on last year,,,AND by much more on every previous year at Carlton. His Carlton average possessions are something like 8/9 below his 2017 year at Geelong. You have picked his best year but not his average output at Carlton. You are nitpicking because you want to find something there that protects Carlton's price at all costs. I'm not that desperate and needy.

As an aside, if we take those 4.5 disposals you throw away like cheap wine, what we'd give to have Cuningham average those 4.5 possessions extra per game. What we'd give to have SPS average those possessions per game in 2018. What you see as meagre disposal increases a for an ex Carlton player you would on other hand laud a breakout for a Blues player.

Let's summarise your view to call you out.

At Carlton, Tuohy was considered a fringe best 22 player in and out of the side over his career. At Geelong in 2017 and going fwd into 2018, he is a lock best 22 and probably a best 15. Do you disagree with this viewpoint? Obv you must disagree with my statement or your points are ludicrous!.
 

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Monkey King said:
Are you talking about Tuohy here? The guy played probably every game for four seasons and was 3rd in our BnF the year before he was traded. Far from a middling fringe player at Carlton.
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A little harsh for sure.

He was behind Doch and Simpson. Was behind Byrne for a bit until the leg. Carlton tried a heap of players in def trying to find a decent player.

Tuohy played there while Carlton looked for better. He could play no other position due to poor game sense (notably improved).

Averaged about 14 possessions a game with us. 14 possessions.

Identified straight away by Silvagni and the player we could dump for trade value.

May be at times Carlton was so bad list wise that he was in the 22.

But he was surely in the bottom lot each week.
 
BlueRenaissance said:
You are being a little loose with your analysis and difficult. His disposals went up by 4.5 on last year,,,AND by much more on every previous year at Carlton. His Carlton average possessions are something like 8/9 below his 2017 year at Geelong. You have picked his best year but not his average output at Carlton. You are nitpicking because you want to find something there that protects Carlton's price at all costs. I'm not that desperate and needy.

As an aside, if we take those 4.5 disposals you throw away like cheap wine, what we'd give to have Cuningham average those 4.5 possessions extra per game. What we'd give to have SPS average those possessions per game in 2018. What you see as meagre disposal increases a for an ex Carlton player you would on other hand laud a breakout for a Blues player.

Let's summarise your view to call you out.

At Carlton, Tuohy was considered a fringe best 22 player in and out of the side over his career. At Geelong in 2017 and going fwd into 2018, he is a lock best 22 and probably a best 15. Do you disagree with this viewpoint? Obv you must disagree with my statement or your points are ludicrous!.
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You are still ignoring the change in role as reason for the increase in his disposals, coupled with the trend across the board towards high possession half back flankers. You are also ignoring the fact that his disposals increased every year he has played the game, save 2011-2012. The contention was that he was a superior player in hoops than in blue; for that to be the case, you need more than the 4.5 disposal discrepancy that can be accounted for by the change in role.

I find it interesting that you find my interpretation of statistics loose, when you are unwilling to put in the effort to bring in more of your own to prove your point of view, and I wonder why you ascribe me emotion ("desperate and needy") and motive when I've brought statistics which support my views. You've brought nothing, other than accusations of bias.

Feel free to think whatever you wish, mate. He doesn't play for Carlton any more, so whether or not he's a better player now is not really relevant to this thread.
 
BlueRenaissance said:
You are being a little loose with your analysis and difficult.

At Carlton, Tuohy was considered a fringe best 22 player in and out of the side over his career. At Geelong in 2017 and going fwd into 2018, he is a lock best 22 and probably a best 15. Do you disagree with this viewpoint? Obv you must disagree with my statement or your points are ludicrous!.
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I don’t know what you are arguing for or against but the paragraph above is a beauty.

Far from being a fringe player, he played 22 games in each of his last 3 seasons for us. You have already been told he finished 3rd in our bnf, in 2015, scoring 64 points, to 2 other fringe players I guess in Cripps (68) and Murphy (67).

I certainly accept that anyone who agreed with your statement would be ludicrous!!.
 
Gethelred said:
You are still ignoring the change in role as reason for the increase in his disposals, coupled with the trend across the board towards high possession half back flankers. You are also ignoring the fact that his disposals increased every year he has played the game, save 2011-2012. The contention was that he was a superior player in hoops than in blue; for that to be the case, you need more than the 4.5 disposal discrepancy that can be accounted for by the change in role.

I find it interesting that you find my interpretation of statistics loose, when you are unwilling to put in the effort to bring in more of your own to prove your point of view, and I wonder why you ascribe me emotion ("desperate and needy") and motive when I've brought statistics which support my views. You've brought nothing, other than accusations of bias.

Feel free to think whatever you wish, mate. He doesn't play for Carlton any more, so whether or not he's a better player now is not really relevant to this thread.
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Windhover said:
I don’t know what you are arguing for or against but the paragraph above is a beauty.

Far from being a fringe player, he played 22 games in each of his last 3 seasons for us. You have already been told he finished 3rd in our bnf, in 2015, scoring 64 points, to 2 other fringe players I guess in Cripps (68) and Murphy (67).

I certainly accept that anyone who agreed with your statement would be ludicrous!!.
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Does sound a bit when you see games played. I should probably just stick to bog average player for Carlton. Rather than fringe best 22.

BTW Jordan Russell finished second in our best and fairest and played 20+ games every year. I still counted him as a dud fringe player that played due to lack of depth in our squad. He also had one good season like tuohey.

Brock mclean came 4th in our best & fairest. THe only decent indicator using that tool as a reference is repeated top 5 finishes or don't quote it.
 
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BlueRenaissance said:
Does sound a bit when you see games played. I should probably just stick to bog average player for Carlton. Rather than fringe best 22.

BTW Jordan Russell finished second in our best and fairest and played 20+ games every year. I still counted him as a dud fringe player that played due to lack of depth in our squad. He also had one good season like tuohey.

Brock mclean came 4th in our best & fairest. THe only decent indicator using that tool as a reference is repeated top 5 finishes or don't quote it.
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I wanted to pick apart this post, bolding a section to respond to it, but then I realised there was nothing in there that I don't dispute.

You've fallen into the exact thing I was arguing against, the dominant media interpretation of reality: that Tuohy, and others, were ordinary or average in blue, and have improved out of sight after having left the club for fairer shores. You can make arguments for some of them that this is the case - with Kennedy and Sauce Jacobs being the only real evidence that isn't borderline, from a statistical perspective - but in the main these players have played to a level we have already seen in our jumper. For whatever reason - it sells papers, garners comments and watercooler talk, and gets page views - this discourse occurs whenever we trade someone, despite the fact that there is ample evidence that this is not the case.

You called Tuohy fringe at Carlton, and is now in the best 15 at Geelong; you used this as part of your argument that he is better for them. When confronted with evidence that he came 3rd in our BnF, you then try to devalue our BnF.

You state in here that Tuohy had one good season. In his last season with us (2016) he averaged 20.1 disposals per match; in the same year, Dane Rampe averaged 18.4, Shannon Hearn averaged 18. Rampe averaged 2.4 tackles a match; Tuohy averaged 2.2, Hearn 1.7. Rampe averaged 2.8 clangers a match; Tuohy 1.9, Hearn 1.9. Tuohy kicks more goals than the other two. Tuohy was more likely to win a free kick. Tuohy was less likely to concede a free kick.

So, by my count, he's at least played two good seasons; that is, unless you think his 2016 year was better than his 2017.

Here's an idea. Before you go off half-cocked, actually check to see if there's any evidence to support your opinion, hmm?
 
One sec guys, just loading both barrels

Gethelred said:
I wanted to pick apart this post, bolding a section to respond to it, but then I realised there was nothing in there that I don't dispute.

You've fallen into the exact thing I was arguing against, the dominant media interpretation of reality: that Tuohy, and others, were ordinary or average in blue, and have improved out of sight after having left the club for fairer shores. You can make arguments for some of them that this is the case - with Kennedy and Sauce Jacobs being the only real evidence that isn't borderline, from a statistical perspective - but in the main these players have played to a level we have already seen in our jumper. For whatever reason - it sells papers, garners comments and watercooler talk, and gets page views - this discourse occurs whenever we trade someone, despite the fact that there is ample evidence that this is not the case.

You called Tuohy fringe at Carlton, and is now in the best 15 at Geelong; you used this as part of your argument that he is better for them. When confronted with evidence that he came 3rd in our BnF, you then try to devalue our BnF.

You state in here that Tuohy had one good season. In his last season with us (2016) he averaged 20.1 disposals per match; in the same year, Dane Rampe averaged 18.4, Shannon Hearn averaged 18. Rampe averaged 2.4 tackles a match; Tuohy averaged 2.2, Hearn 1.7. Rampe averaged 2.8 clangers a match; Tuohy 1.9, Hearn 1.9. Tuohy kicks more goals than the other two. Tuohy was more likely to win a free kick. Tuohy was less likely to concede a free kick.

So, by my count, he's at least played two good seasons; that is, unless you think his 2016 year was better than his 2017.

Here's an idea. Before you go off half-cocked, actually check to see if there's any evidence to support your opinion, hmm?
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You should be a politician Gethel. You are a true master debator. A completely useless debating twit but a master at it. I'm not ranting, I really think you are a twit. You have misdirected and misquoted to a point where you now have made some good points. The original point that was quoted is so mundane it was fool proof but you have managed to string quite a few posts together, misdirect and make 'good useless' points. And win a few rounds of posts along the way.

I reiterate. You are a twit and time waster.

Should I prove it?

Here is what preceded this entire thread of posts..this statement...

"Has gone on to another level at a new club...better than he was at Carlton."

You told me to prove it but you did it yourself. He improved 4.5 disposals per game...game in game out. 90-100 disposals in one year! You tried to defraud the possession count and made 4.5 a small difference and nothing of note. 90-100 possessions in a year sounds great to me and acts as basic proof when talking to a twit.

If you were fair minded which you are not...you would compare his Geelong ave with his Carlton ave as that is my point. In that comparison, Tuohy rises hugely in almost every statistic. The reason why you take Carlton's career average is because I said he had improved in comparison (better at the Cats vs Carlton). Get it? You take the average to then apply against what my statement was.

In stats, on average, Tuohy has improved by 8+ disposal per game or over 160 possessions in a season! You cant dismiss averages because my point is based on it. Touhy has gone on to another level as his new club...better than he was at Carlton. Based on ave stats, its a no brainer. I didnt say Tuohy has gone on to another level since 2016! This is important Gethel.

You know this but because you cant accept it so you divert into other conversations. You say the 'new role at Geelong'. That debate though a good one doesn't negate my statement in ANY way. It explains why he might have got more possessions from my point of view. I've used possession count as point of proof.

I know what you will reply with already...you will be disingenuous and start a conversation about the value of possessions and that said good player (Judd) only needed 18-22 possessions so they aren't a fair tool of analysis. That is why I call you out as a time waster/twit.

You further misdirect and befuddle...you quickly discount outside opinions but are free to expect us to fully believe your opinion. Your fully unbiased opinion lol which can count as fact right?

Go away!
 
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Being that tuohy has played multiple years at Carlton and only the 1 with Geelong it’s understae that one might compare the single year. The only reason a person would compare to the average across every Carlton season is to win this argument.
 
I would argue that if tuohy has played for Carlton in 2017 that he would of being statistically greater than anything he was doing at Geelong due to our game plan and ball movement across half back.
 
BlueRenaissance said:
But he was surely in the bottom lot each week.
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Which is why in his last two seasons at Carlton he was top 8 in the club BnF?

Tuohy was never behind Byrne. Now you’re just making stuff up.

Tuohy wasn’t moved on because he was poor, much the opposite, one of the reasons he was moved on is because he was good; he was one of few Carlton players that had trade currency. It just so happens that he played in a position where the club had surplus options moving forward and the only other guy in that position with trade currency was Docherty, who is not only better, but better suits the lists’ age profile.
 
Interesting debate regarding Tuohy

Perhaps rather than determining if he was best or fringe 22 with us, look at it on a different level. Would he have been best/fringe 22 at any other club, prior to leaving us? Absolutely!

As for whether he has improved and or gone to another level, IMHO, it's a no. Put a very good player in a better side, he will get more opportunities/support from the players around him. The likes of Betts, is a similar scenario

The trade with the Cats yielded the best compensation, given he was out of contract and only wanted to be traded to one club

No player that has left us in recent times has improved talent wise, just more opportunities/support from the current players around them
 
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