Tall Forward Success

[meto]

These recent massive winning margins have to and must be attributed to the sizing up of our forward group.
Since the inclusion of Tom Hawkins and now the return of Cam Mooney with the J Pod, our scoring ability has gone through the roof.

Last night Collingwood scored their 3rd highest score in history 137pts, our boys have trumped that margin for consecetive weeks, anyone thinking there's anything wrong with playing 3 talls needs to think again.
'These are history making stats'.

Collingwood and the Eagles like to play a similar setup with the mobile ruck running forward to provide even more tall options, what I'm saying is, I believe our boys can use this system even better, cause we've got the better smalls that can exploit the spillages and options.
The extra body size at forward stoppages is a giant plus!.... not to mention, 'they're kicking bags full'.

 

[Vdubs]

These recent massive winning margins have to and must be attributed to the sizing up of our forward group.
Since the inclusion of Tom Hawkins and now the return of Cam Mooney with the J Pod, our scoring ability has gone through the roof.

Last night Collingwood scored their 3rd highest score in history 137pts, our boys have trumped that margin for consecetive weeks, anyone thinking there's anything wrong with playing 3 talls needs to think again.
'These are history making stats'.

Collingwood and the Eagles like to play a similar setup with the mobile ruck running forward to provide even more tall options, what I'm saying is, I believe our boys can use this system even better, cause we've got the better smalls that can exploit the spillages and options.
The extra body size at forward stoppages is a giant plus!.... not to mention, 'they're kicking bags full'.

we've just played 3 of the bottom 4, 2 at our fortress, but there could be something in that.

 

[yogogorilla41]

we've just played 3 of the bottom 4, 2 at our fortress, but there could be something in that.

In saying that so have Collingwood.

Also i would like to add more than anything our small forwards are playing amazingly well. SJ, Bundy and Stokes are carving it up.

 

[meto]

we've just played 3 of the bottom 4, 2 at our fortress, but there could be something in that.

Whatever your spin, remember one thing, we're talking RECORDS here!

Irrespective of the competion, it is what it is, over the generations of games, consecetive biggest winning margins
In fact the last 3 games we've scored over 315 pts to half time, another AFL/VFL record so I'm told.

Just try bearing that in mind the next time someone illogically argues about an extra guy over 190, absolute crap!

Carn't wait to we give those big Saints defenders something to think about!
Our big guys are the major goal contributors not more than anything else its our smalls, they're helped by the talls, add up the goals in the left column!!!

 

[CF]

The question is will playing 3 tall forwards work against the Pies? That's all that really matters at this stage. I don't really have the answer because there are good arguements for and against doing it at this stage. All I can say is it is a good problem to have. I think Scott is a really switched on guy so I am happy to leave it to him and the other coaches to sort out.

 

[Boxhead_31]

I would much rather have the current problem we have with too many tall's playing well than have none playing at a competitive level.

I think CS and the match committee will have an idea as to what is going to serve us best going into the final's an trust there judgement

 

[year of the cat]

I think we will be too top heavy against a rebounding Pies backline if we go with the 3 talls up forward. It basically comes down to a decision between selecting Hawkins or Mooney. At the moment I would take Hawkins on account that I am still concerned with Mooney's likelihood of breaking down during a big final.

 

[winty]

If Moons, Pods and Ottens are all fit leading into September, IMO there is no way that Hawkins should be anywhere near the best 22. He's been lucky over the last three weeks that we've played against very poor opposition. Yes, he may have kicked 11 goals over the past three weeks, but how many of them have been from handballs over the top in the goal square? There were several times last week when he was caught behind his opponent, and either let him mark uncontested or gave away a crappy free kick when trying to spoil. I have no doubt if Pods was playing last week, we'd have cracked the 40 goal barrier.

He took a few good one-grab marks yesterday, but as soon as the ball hits the ground, he's a liability. Some of his disposal and decision making yesterday was ordinary. Yes, he did take one good mark going third man up, but that ball had Pods' name all over it anyway. I doubt you'll ever see Roughead attempt to out-mark Franklin, or Dawes attempt to out-mark Cloke in a similar situation, or Mooney try to out-mark Pods. They would've tried to keep their opponent out of the contest, not lead them to it.

I'd much prefer to have Pods and Moons as our key forwards, with Ottens and either West or Vardy in the ruck.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

The Hawk was playing better just before Mooney came in. I think he has a confidence prob with Mooney in the team. I have seen it before. Like a pecking order mindset.

Also Hawkins is out of position sometimes and I think its because he just isn't switched on reading the ball. I have also said before his eyesight might be a prob, as it always seems to be when the ball is coming in quickly from 50m out. He is ok getting position and sprinting for a 20-20 metre pass. But he always looked lost when its bombed in from a long way.

 

[Sttew]

Having three tall forwards, and four if you include Ottens / West, gives us amazing flexibility

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

If Moons, Pods and Ottens are all fit leading into September, IMO there is no way that Hawkins should be anywhere near the best 22. He's been lucky over the last three weeks that we've played against very poor opposition. Yes, he may have kicked 11 goals over the past three weeks, but how many of them have been from handballs over the top in the goal square? There were several times last week when he was caught behind his opponent, and either let him mark uncontested or gave away a crappy free kick when trying to spoil. I have no doubt if Pods was playing last week, we'd have cracked the 40 goal barrier.

He took a few good one-grab marks yesterday, but as soon as the ball hits the ground, he's a liability. Some of his disposal and decision making yesterday was ordinary. Yes, he did take one good mark going third man up, but that ball had Pods' name all over it anyway. I doubt you'll ever see Roughead attempt to out-mark Franklin, or Dawes attempt to out-mark Cloke in a similar situation, or Mooney try to out-mark Pods. They would've tried to keep their opponent out of the contest, not lead them to it.

I'd much prefer to have Pods and Moons as our key forwards, with Ottens and either West or Vardy in the ruck.

Agree with Winty.. Hawk seems to have shown some good improvement but I don't think he will be ready for finals... Moons has to get the gig... His experience will be invaluable in the finals campaign... just hope he doesn't yip it up....

 

[AM]

If Moons, Pods and Ottens are all fit leading into September, IMO there is no way that Hawkins should be anywhere near the best 22.

Hmm!

 

[Turbocat]

Although all played with success yesterday ,Im not sure if that translate against all sides.

Infact , all played reasonably well , all 3 certainly could have improved on what they did.
Pods- lets me be picky here , I've seen him mark better , he missed kicked a bit with right foot which Id hope he could improve on and of course going for his 6th dead infront he missed. That he got 5 says a lot in my opinion , he is now playing like like an experienced AFL player unlike last year when he was in white hot form now he very comfortable and once senses there is a bit left in the tank.
Mooney - didn't kick as well as last week and perhaps was not quite as good. Certainly had a few goal involvements and what he brings to the side is intangible.
Hawk- I can see what other like he is slow coming to hand. He is taking a lot more strong marks , his confidence is running hot and the setshot goals he got where on the wrong side for him. Well done. What a shame he still lacks a little of SJ arrogance. The marks he took in the last quarter both deserved goals. The one over the top of Pods was fantastic. Should he have done a banana , left foot snap or whatever. Not sure but he must get those. It would really hurt to miss those in big games. Ask CamM.

If Hawkins can continue to take those grabs , and look like the boss he should be CamM will struggle to push him out. The one thing I really like is he is rarely outmarked. Good signs.

 

[cynical]

It's easy for big forwards to dominate against minnow clubs at Kardinia park/small grounds cos they have a massive size advantage and don't need to be accountable.

If we play both mooney and hawkins in the same team we will not win the flag.

i just hope they make a choice on which one early and not do this 3 big forwards 1 ruck rubbish for too long.

 

[Vdubs]

It's easy for big forwards to dominate against minnow clubs at Kardinia park/small grounds cos they have a massive size advantage and don't need to be accountable.

If we play both mooney and hawkins in the same team we will not win the flag.

i just hope they make a choice on which one early and not do this 3 big forwards 1 ruck rubbish for too long.

Would be a nice touch to win a flag this year with Ottens and West, meaning that each of our 2nd rucks over that era, King, Blake, West would have a premiership medallion. And Lonergan too.

I'm a huge Mooney fan,but he is probably just past his use-by-date, just, and should be back-up for injury or poor form of Hawkins

 

[meto]

Having three tall forwards, and four if you include Ottens / West, gives us amazing flexibility

Stew, I agree, an AFL record speaks for itself, the notion that 3 talls mightn't work against another team for a particular reason is unfounded, and hypothetical at best, condescending of the amazing results of recent weeks.

Hopefully the coaching staff will go with what works best, we only have to look at our final scores when miraculously we scrapped home so often, including our pitiful percentage.

But some would prefer a return to those days,.......but why????

 

[you pick one]

These recent massive winning margins have to and must be attributed to the sizing up of our forward group.
Since the inclusion of Tom Hawkins and now the return of Cam Mooney with the J Pod, our scoring ability has gone through the roof.

Last night Collingwood scored their 3rd highest score in history 137pts, our boys have trumped that margin for consecetive weeks, anyone thinking there's anything wrong with playing 3 talls needs to think again.
'These are history making stats'.

Collingwood and the Eagles like to play a similar setup with the mobile ruck running forward to provide even more tall options, what I'm saying is, I believe our boys can use this system even better, cause we've got the better smalls that can exploit the spillages and options.
The extra body size at forward stoppages is a giant plus!.... not to mention, 'they're kicking bags full'.

I might be a bit slow,metro.
Are you suggesting Tom,Moons and J pod forward as well as Otto and West in the ruck or are you leaving out a ruckman and using Hawkins?

 

[God Mode]

If Moons, Pods and Ottens are all fit leading into September, IMO there is no way that Hawkins should be anywhere near the best 22. He's been lucky over the last three weeks that we've played against very poor opposition. Yes, he may have kicked 11 goals over the past three weeks, but how many of them have been from handballs over the top in the goal square? There were several times last week when he was caught behind his opponent, and either let him mark uncontested or gave away a crappy free kick when trying to spoil. I have no doubt if Pods was playing last week, we'd have cracked the 40 goal barrier.

He took a few good one-grab marks yesterday, but as soon as the ball hits the ground, he's a liability. Some of his disposal and decision making yesterday was ordinary. Yes, he did take one good mark going third man up, but that ball had Pods' name all over it anyway. I doubt you'll ever see Roughead attempt to out-mark Franklin, or Dawes attempt to out-mark Cloke in a similar situation, or Mooney try to out-mark Pods. They would've tried to keep their opponent out of the contest, not lead them to it.

I'd much prefer to have Pods and Moons as our key forwards, with Ottens and either West or Vardy in the ruck.

I see what you mean on this, but that's the attitude Hawkins has been lacking all this time. He needs that aggressive attitude of "this is my ball and no one else's" and should be crashing packs. Obviously not when you spoil your own man but he pulled it off on this occasion and I would like to see him keep this attitude.

 

[meto]

I might be a bit slow,metro.
Are you suggesting Tom,Moons and J pod forward as well as Otto and West in the ruck or are you leaving out a ruckman and using Hawkins?

Why would you ruck our FF come CHF????

We went down that deadend street once before, you remember when we scrapped in by a few points game after game.
Even the media lamented our inability to score given the entries, wasn't so long ago.
If we go smaller the Saints and Pies will be lickin' their chops.

Those five are exactly what I'd like to see.
Rotations would see 2/3 talls up fwd at any particular time!

 

[TheHonestyPolicy]

Its an interesting one, glad its someone elses problem and not mine to be honest. Fortunately we get a look at it vs the Pies rnd 24 whatever way we decide to go; although Malthouse has started the mind games already saying they might tank the last round.

To me its an advantage if we win the midfield battle and gain an advantage with quality I50s. Lose that battle and we are in strife I suspect. There is always the sub rule if one of the big guys isnt working. Most people feel the Pies defenders dont like getting caught out one on one with bigger opponents. Having three up there suggests that is more likely to happen. The form of our small forwards is crucial, once the ball hits the deck we need to lock the ball in, then our big guys need to find the contest quickly.

Personally I see a guy like Varcoe playing a role up forward, maybe even Bundy too and Stokes in the first half. As the game wears on you move some of those guys around, perhaps Trav to HB, Bundy into the middle etc. We have to be versatile to the situation and progress of the match whatever we do.

Bit of old fashioned Brisbane Lions aggression and size could be on the agenda too but as meto says you cant fault whats happened in recent weeks regardless of the opposition. Time will tell soon enough.

 

[Partridge]

He took a few good one-grab marks yesterday, but as soon as the ball hits the ground, he's a liability. Some of his disposal and decision making yesterday was ordinary. Yes, he did take one good mark going third man up, but that ball had Pods' name all over it anyway. I doubt you'll ever see Roughead attempt to out-mark Franklin, or Dawes attempt to out-mark Cloke in a similar situation, or Mooney try to out-mark Pods. They would've tried to keep their opponent out of the contest, not lead them to it.

I'd much prefer to have Pods and Moons as our key forwards, with Ottens and either West or Vardy in the ruck.

I'm really surprised by this comment. Surely this is exactly what's been missing from Hawkins' game and what he needs to display more.

When the ball comes into our forward line, he should demand it and not get out of anyone's way - including teammates. Pods and Mooney would not be bothered in the slightest, I'm certain they'd be delighted to see him stamping some authority.

He wasn't great, but he was solid again. More good signs. Oh, and if we pick Mooney ahead of him for the finals, it means that a) we didn't learn any lessons from last September, and b) goodbye any hope of a premiership.

 

[Partridge]

Agree with Winty.. Hawk seems to have shown some good improvement but I don't think he will be ready for finals... Moons has to get the gig... His experience will be invaluable in the finals campaign... just hope he doesn't yip it up....

Like last year? The only difference is he's another year older and clearly not the same player.

 

[AM]

I'm really surprised by this comment. Surely this is exactly what's been missing from Hawkins' game and what he needs to display more.

When the ball comes into our forward line, he should demand it and not get out of anyone's way - including teammates. Pods and Mooney would not be bothered in the slightest, I'm certain they'd be delighted to see him stamping some authority.

He wasn't great, but he was solid again. More good signs. Oh, and if we pick Mooney ahead of him for the finals, it means that a) we didn't learn any lessons from last September, and b) goodbye any hope of a premiership.

Well argued post, Partridge. Remember though, Winty is the one who suggested Hawk wasn't "anywhere near" being in our preferred 22. So........

I thought Hawk was very good in the first quarter on Saturday but fell away a bit after that. He loses concentration and too often becomes an observer. Still, 12 of his 18 possessions were contested so that's a positive.

There's no question Hawk is one of the borderline players and, as of now, I get the impression Moons has the other key position spot to lose. The thing that concerns me is that Moons will grab that spot on the back of being really tested only once. If we regard the Pies game as a dead rubber (as Chris has said ) there's a very good chance he won't be fully tested in that game. And it probably isn't in the Pies interest to fully test him anyway - if you get my drift. That leaves the Swans game as the only real test before we get into the heat of the kitchen. A bit of a worry is that scenario.

 

[Partridge]

I thought Hawk was very good in the first quarter on Saturday but fell away a bit after that. He loses concentration and too often becomes an observer. Still, 12 of his 18 possessions were contested so that's a positive.

I don't think Hawkins loses concentration so much as doesn't demand the footy enough. He needs to really scream to the other players to give him the ball. As we saw in the third quarter (although he missed the shot), when he decides he wants to fly for a mark with conviction he can grab anything.

Very simple for him - more confidence, more aggression (at the ball), more demanding of the ball from teammates. And much more ignoring of teammates telling him what do to. He needs to start reversing that mindset.

 

[AM]

I don't think Hawkins loses concentration so much as doesn't demand the footy enough. He needs to really scream to the other players to give him the ball. As we saw in the third quarter (although he missed the shot), when he decides he wants to fly for a mark with conviction he can grab anything.

Very simple for him - more confidence, more aggression (at the ball), more demanding of the ball from teammates. And much more ignoring of teammates telling him what do to. He needs to start reversing that mindset.

Agree he lacks confidence and doesn't demand the ball. He also doesn't read the game well, nor does he place himself in the dangerous spots often enough. Part of the latter is he's way too conscious of where the other forwards are and not impeding them in any way. That's why I wish Chris had followed through with his move to get Carey to the club to mentor him. It would have been money well spent IMO.

As for the aggro, I'm not sure you can instill that into someone who has never shown he has it in him. I'd be happy if he lead with conviction, ran straight at the pill and took out anyone who got in his way. They'd soon learn to be more aware as most do when Pods is in the vicinity.

Still reckon another significant issue is he loses concentration thereby becoming a spectator too often.

As you say he's shown he is capable of taking strong contested marks. He is also better below his knees than either Pods or Moons and is very mobile for a 197cm player.

Stan Alves suggested it sometimes takes awhile "for the penny to drop" -to use his exact words - with some players before they produce what they're capable of. Let's hope the penny drops sooner rather than later for Hawk. The ability is there.