Teams which underachieved?

[GoldbergsGold]

No I disagree on Thomas he had no coaching experience whatsoever which showed in big moments, he was only supposed to be a interim coach until we got somebody else at seasons end. except his best mate at the time was rod butters the president who didn’t even run a proper process and just gave him the job

He had some assistant coaching experience but more managerial experience, which is better than just being a tactician, assistant coaches should be more so in the tactician role. You should research what was going on behind the scenes, it's remarkable St Kilda even got to prelims under that sort of adversity from the suits, like "whispers in the sky", the Tasmanian "home" games, etc, just messed up St Kilda during that era. Butterss is the one who got rid of Thomas when he made 3 consecutive finals series', and Thomas was the one who got Blight to the club, so you've got that twisted. In fact, Troy Schwarze said Blight had checked out as a coach and neglected the playing group.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

He had some assistant coaching experience but more managerial experience, which is better than just being a tactician, assistant coaches should be more so in the tactician role. You should research what was going on behind the scenes, it's remarkable St Kilda even got to prelims under that sort of adversity from the suits, like "whispers in the sky", the Tasmanian "home" games, etc, just messed up St Kilda during that era. Butterss is the one who got rid of Thomas when he made 3 consecutive finals series', and Thomas was the one who got Blight to the club, so you've got that twisted. In fact, Troy Schwarze said Blight had checked out as a coach and neglected the playing group.

Your research is a bit off , Thomas coaching experience was at surburban level mate he coached old scholars football in Melbourne he had absolutely no afl coaching experience , yes he had managerial experience he was our football manager , Thomas himself has admitted the process to find a coach after blight left was a total sham and he was just given the job

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Your research is a bit off , Thomas coaching experience was at surburban level mate he coached old scholars football in Melbourne he had absolutely no afl coaching experience , yes he had managerial experience he was our football manager , Thomas himself has admitted the process to find a coach after blight left was a total sham and he was just given the job

Thomas was an assistant coach in 1994 at St Kilda under Stan Alves in the AFL seniors, not sure why you're telling me I'm off, that's quite searchable. Thomas is the one who got Blight to the club in the first place, but Blight had clearly checked out by 2001 from what Schwarze recounted that he neglected the playing group, he didn't turn up to training. You're also acting as if St Kilda were very successful before Thomas, when they only had 4 finals series' in that 1974-2001 period, whereas Thomas got them to finals 3 times in 5 seasons as senior coach, compared to only 4 times in the previous 28 seasons. St Kilda were really poor until Thomas managed their list, which Lyon inherited as a more mature list and pushed so close to a premiership.

 

[Mr Meow]

Thomas was an assistant coach in 1994 at St Kilda under Stan Alves in the AFL seniors, not sure why you're telling me I'm off, that's quite searchable. Thomas is the one who got Blight to the club in the first place, but Blight had clearly checked out by 2001 from what Schwarze recounted that he neglected the playing group, he didn't turn up to training. You're also acting as if St Kilda were very successful before Thomas, when they only had 4 finals series' in that 1974-2001 period, whereas Thomas got them to finals 3 times in 5 seasons as senior coach, compared to only 4 times in the previous 28 seasons. St Kilda were really poor until Thomas managed their list, which Lyon inherited as a more mature list and pushed so close to a premiership.

Well said Mrs Thomas.

 

[rapidfire7]

2024 was one that got away. They could and should have beaten the Lions in the prelim.

Agreed. Probably the worst of our Prelim losses IMO, in that we had a great record over the Lions, were coming off a rest and were in complete control of the game.

Didn’t know it at the time (as I still felt the Swans were going to win the GF regardless), but we really dropped the cup on that night.

Would have been really nice to win another, especially after all the other missed opportunities in the prior decade or so too .

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Agreed. Probably the worst of our Prelim losses IMO, in that we had a great record over the Lions, were coming off a rest and were in complete control of the game.

Didn’t know it at the time (as I still felt the Swans were going to win the GF regardless), but we really dropped the cup on that night.

Would have been really nice to win another, especially after all the other missed opportunities in the prior decade or so too .

You would have flogged Sydney again.

 

[rapidfire7]

But that period from 2012 to 2021 was Interesting. If cats had some luck in finals, Geelong would of and should of won 2013, 2016, 2019 and 2020.

Yes. No doubt that they stumbled a lot in finals in this period and maybe could have won 1-2 more.

I say maybe, because a big problem was our slow, methodical game plan which kept on getting found out in high pressure finals... But I also think that we mostly just ran into better opposition.

Having said all this, just the fact that we kept making it so deep into finals every year (defying gravity) was a pretty fair effort in itself.

No other team (except maybe Brisbane of late) has been able to keep showing up every year the way we did (and continue to).

 

[Mr Meow]

Yes. No doubt that they stumbled a lot in finals in this period and maybe could have won 1-2 more.

I say maybe, because a big problem was our slow, methodical game plan which kept on getting found out in high pressure finals... But I also think that we mostly just ran into better opposition.

Having said all this, just the fact that we kept making it so deep into finals every year (defying gravity) was a pretty fair effort in itself.

No other team (except maybe Brisbane of late) has been able to keep showing up every year the way we did (and continue to).

We had different issues at different times unfortunately.

2013 our forward line wasn't good enough: SJ required in midfield, Chappy under utilised (then suspended for the prelim), Hawkins had a broken back. Hawthorn had forward weapons everywhere.

2016-2017 era was all Selwood, Dangerfield and Hawkins. Not enough support in midfield or forward for them. Plus we were we slow. Veterans were cooked in fast pace finals.

2019-2020 we were a bit better and ran a little deeper. Very close to being a great team, but flawed and not finals-suited. Our bottom 10 were an issue at the pointy end, our defenders were mostly old and slow, our forward line still lacked 2 or 3 difference makers.

2024-2025 we had much better runners and pace, attributes and gameplan better suited to finals. However our top end isn't quite as good. A few are very old. And lots of very good veterans have been replaced with varying success. Midfield is lacking elite depth, defence lacking elite interceptors/rebounders. We probably have more contributors than the other eras, but fewer stars in their absolute prime.

We still could have snatched one or two more flags, but each time the flaws have been our final stumbling block.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

We had different issues at different times unfortunately.

2013 our forward line wasn't good enough: SJ required in midfield, Chappy under utilised (then suspended for the prelim), Hawkins had a broken back. Hawthorn had forward weapons everywhere.

2016-2017 era was all Selwood, Dangerfield and Hawkins. Not enough support in midfield or forward for them. Plus we were we slow. Veterans were cooked in fast pace finals.

2019-2020 we were a bit better and ran a little deeper. Very close to being a great team, but flawed and not finals-suited. Our bottom 10 were an issue at the point end though, our defenders were mostly old and slow, our forward line still lacked 2 or 3 difference makers.

2024-2025 we had much better runners and pace, attributes and gameplan better suited to finals. However our top end isn't quite as good. A few are very old. And lots of very good veterans have been replaced with varying success. Midfield is lacking elite depth, defence lacking elite interceptors/rebounders. We probably have more contributors than the other eras, but fewer stars in their absolute prime.

We still could have snatched one or two more flags, but each time the flaws have been our final stumbling block.

We're you missing Hawkins and Chapman in the 2013 Prelim?

 

[Mr Meow]

We're you missing Hawkins and Chapman in the 2013 Prelim?

Hawkins played after missing the QF. His back should have been managed through the year but instead we rolled him out at 50% and he could barely run.

Enright was the other big miss. Our best defender at that time and Hawthorn's forwards loved playing on his replacement, a declining and barely used Josh Hunt.

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Hawkins played after missing the QF. His back should have been managed through the year but instead we rolled him out at 50% and he could barely run.

Enright was the other big miss. Our best defender at that time and Hawthorn's forwards loved playing on his replacement, a declining and barely used Josh Hunt.

2013 I feel you would have beaten Freo had you got past the Hawks. I can't recall if Hawthorn blew chances in the first 3 qtrs or just the llast. I know they kicked 4.8 in the 4th term.

Biggest one that got away was 2024 though. You were good enough. From.memory a mistake in the dying minutes which left the Lions back in the game.

 

[Mr Meow]

2013 I feel you would have beaten Freo had you got past the Hawks. I can't recall if Hawthorn blew chances in the first 3 qtrs or just the llast. I know they kicked 4.8 in the 4th term.

Biggest one that got away was 2024 though. You were good enough. From.memory a mistake in the dying minutes which left the Lions back in the game.

The second Holmes copped his knock early in the 3rd term (23 points up) we were cooked. He was holding the midfield up and giving our forwards good supply. Without him Brisbane just mauled us at stoppages. A team should never be that reliant on one player. Brisbane lost Big O but Daniher did a good job in ruck and they had enough forward weapons to make do. Deeper team.

 

[emuboy]

One interesting case from years ago is that of Richmond in the late 1940s and throughout most of the 1950s. Richmond were far from a bad team in this era, boasted some pretty good players and more often than not contested for the finals in most seasons.

But contesting for a finals spot is one thing, actually getting one is another and despite appearing more than capable of September action for most of this time, the Tigers failed to achieve this goal once, not even a fleeting and now forgotten first semi final for a quick exit.

Amazingly, 20 years would go by between Richmond playing finals in 1947 and the next time they made it again in 1967.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

Thomas was an assistant coach in 1994 at St Kilda under Stan Alves in the AFL seniors, not sure why you're telling me I'm off, that's quite searchable. Thomas is the one who got Blight to the club in the first place, but Blight had clearly checked out by 2001 from what Schwarze recounted that he neglected the playing group, he didn't turn up to training. You're also acting as if St Kilda were very successful before Thomas, when they only had 4 finals series' in that 1974-2001 period, whereas Thomas got them to finals 3 times in 5 seasons as senior coach, compared to only 4 times in the previous 28 seasons. St Kilda were really poor until Thomas managed their list, which Lyon inherited as a more mature list and pushed so close to a premiership.

John beveridge recruited and put that list together Thomas was just in charge of the contracts

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

Nah never close.
Split H&A v Brisbane in 2001, 2002, 2003, a few of the great H&A games that many in Vic especially didn’t see because they were getting games like St Kilda v North FTA (I know as I was living there)

But nah, never good enough (retrospectively of course).

2003 is the one that Port threw away. 2002 no chance. A close win in the last round of the home and away season was properly negated by getting hammered in the prelim by Brisbane.

 

[SC_Power]

2003 is the one that Port threw away. 2002 no chance. A close win in the last round of the home and away season was properly negated by getting hammered in the prelim by Brisbane.

Yet 2003 was the year we had Francou and Primus out for the season with ACL’s.
Go figure.

 

[Dark Eagle 9]

Yet 2003 was the year we had Francou and Primus out for the season with ACL’s.
Go figure.

You'd of said it would be a different story if Power played the preliminary at home. You have to win the home qualifying in order to get the home preliminary though. They just shouldn't have let them home qualifiers go when they had been so consistently dominant all year. Losing to the Hawks home in 01 should have been lesson learned.

Buckley-less Pies hadn't won a final since 1990 in that 02 qualifier (Port hadn't at all yet)

 

[SC_Power]

You'd of said it would be a different story if Power played the preliminary at home. You have to win the home qualifying in order to get the home preliminary though. They just shouldn't have let them home qualifiers go when they had been so consistently dominant all year. Losing to the Hawks home in 01 should have been lesson learned.

Buckley-less Pies hadn't won a final since 1990 in that 02 qualifier (Port hadn't at all yet)

Both years, Collingwood and Sydney, still pains me.
Hence the thread title.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

John beveridge recruited and put that list together Thomas was just in charge of the contracts

Under Thomas' instructions to find specific needed players, then Thomas managed those players. A crummy manager would have instructed a recruiter to find the wrong type of players and managed them poorly. There's a reason why St Kilda made 7 finals series' in 8 seasons from 2004-2011 compared to only 4 times in the previous 30 seasons.

 

[Freomaniac]

Under Thomas' instructions to find specific needed players, then Thomas managed those players. A crummy manager would have instructed a recruiter to find the wrong type of players and managed them poorly. There's a reason why St Kilda made 7 finals series' in 8 seasons from 2004-2011 compared to only 4 times in the previous 30 seasons.

If you want to go back the last 30 years prior to 2004. So 1974 to 2003, there were various reasons why saints only made finals 4 times in 30 years.

1. Saints were poorly run.

2. Saints didn't have money like Carlton, Richmond and hawks did in the 1970s and 1980s. So that contributed to reason 1.

3. From 1972 to 1990, only 5 finals spots from 12 to 14 sides.

Not surprisingly they made finals in 1991 and 1992 as it was top 6. They also made finals In 1997-8 as it was top 8.

 

[Freomaniac]

Yes. No doubt that they stumbled a lot in finals in this period and maybe could have won 1-2 more.

I say maybe, because a big problem was our slow, methodical game plan which kept on getting found out in high pressure finals... But I also think that we mostly just ran into better opposition.

Having said all this, just the fact that we kept making it so deep into finals every year (defying gravity) was a pretty fair effort in itself.

No other team (except maybe Brisbane of late) has been able to keep showing up every year the way we did (and continue to).

I honestly don't think it was the game plan that was flawed.

But I will specifically mention 2016 and 2019.

2016: swans jump your team in the 1st quarter. Kicked 7 or 8 goals in be 1st quarter and went into cruise control and kicked 15 goals that night.

I still stick to my view had Geelong faced the dogs in the grand final, I am 100 percent certain Geelong would of won that. Geelong has had the wood over the dogs in those recent years from 2008-16.

2019: we all know what cost the cats in that preliminary final vs tigers. One was sprayed shots in key moments. The other reason was Cats main tall forward Tom Hawkins was suspended. Had Hawkins played, you knew he would kick 3 or 4 goals that night.

Dead certain that cats side would of beaten the injury riddled and tired GWS side in that 2019 grand final

 

[Freomaniac]

Its been a long time between drinks... hell, i was 15 in 1998 watching that Crows v NM GF .... ive run out of patience to a point i was numb after last year's debacle.. i just knew we were going out in straight sets.

Random off topic thing so say. Had the crows finished 5th last season, who got 8th would of been beaten by the crows.

Would of been an easy way for a 1st finals win after a 7 or 8 year rebuild of no finals.

I felt overjoyed after that 2022 Elim final won vs the dogs. Mainly because of that tough hard 6 years of a rebuild from 2016-21

 

[emuboy]

One from the VFL, the Frankston Dolphins.

Frankston were one of three new VFA teams added in 1965, the other being the Caulfield Bears as a replacement for the defunct Brighton Penguins and the Werribee Tigers.

Being in an established residential area of inner Melbourne Caulfield didn't concern the other VFA clubs too much, while out in the western suburbs there was already Port Melbourne, Williamstown, Yarraville, Sunshine and Geelong West to stop the new Tigers getting too big for their boots too soon.

The incoming Frankston however was much feared by its VFA rivals. The Dolphins had all of the Mornington Peninsula to themselves, with their nearest geographic rivals Mordialloc and Dandenong a long way away. It was anticipated that it would take only 2 or 3 seasons for Frankston to win their way out of Division 2 and into Division 1, then waste no time in completely dominating the VFA year after year.

What happened in reality though, proved very different. It would take Frankston 13 years to win into the top division by beating the Camberwell Cobras in the 1978 Division 2 Grand Final, and it remains their only flag in the VFA/VFL to date. Frankston, in the top division from 1979 onwards were not bad here, and by 1984 made their first VFL top division Grand Final. Unfortunately they ran into a powerful Preston team and were cleaned up by 54-points, but rather than use this as a learning experience and progress to winning a premiership, Frankston spent the last 10 years of the VFA from 1985-1994 as an enigmatic, under-achieving side, having some poor seasons and not being able to take advantage of finals opportunites in other years. What was even more frustrating was that unlike most of its VFA rivals Frankston were profitable and not saddled with the same critical financial problems that saw 15 of 24 clubs leave the VFL between 1983 and 1994.

From 1995 onwards Frankston became the Southern division's senior team in the restructured VFL and had dominant seasons topping the ladder in 1996 and especially 1997 when they went 17-1. But while the Dolphins could consider themselves unlucky to lose by 3 points in 1996 to the Springvale Scorpions (now Casey), there were no excuses for the inglorious loss to the Sandringham Zebras in the 1997 Grand Final, the dominant Dolphins sent packing in a heavy defeat in wet weather conditions.

Nearly 30 years have gone by since then, and to date Frankston has not made another Grand Final much less broken its long premiership drought, despite the huge advantage of its massive Southern zone allocation which includes the heavily populated Mornington Peninsula.