NFL The 2009/2010 MVP

[likka]

Seems all the media talk is of either Peyton Manning or Favre currently... what the hell more does Brees have to do to be included in this discussion?

Personally I'd have Brees and Chris Johnson in front of Favre ATM, and only slightly behind Manning. If Johnson breaks the rushing record he should win it, but I'd love to see Brees take it... especially after the new arseh*le he recently tore NE.

 

[footylover18]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

i'm pretty sure brees has always been in the discussion.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

Brees is very much in the discussion and may even be leading after his NE dismantling.

If Favre starts throwing picks, watch his name fall off.

 

[likka]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

If Favre starts throwing picks, watch his name fall off.

After no picks in November he threw two this morning against the Cards.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

After no picks in November he threw two this morning against the Cards.

Im very much aware of this, thanks.

 

[Chism]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

Its allways been a QB award and i expect this year to be no different again since 2000 only 3 Non QB's have won it. I personally think Brees will win it after the Saints season so far. Manning will be up there as expected in voting and if i was backing a Non QB to win it i would go with Chris Johnson he has been exceptional this year.

I would be very surprised if the winner didnt come from these players.

 

[catters078]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

Has to be out of Manning or Brees.

being a homer here but i'd also have Rivers in the discussion at least to poll 3rd, 4th or 5th, S.D has a mediocre running game and has had a flat defense most of the year, his dominance has them tied for 2nd in the AFC...

in terms of being most "valuable" to the team, IMO Rivers> Favre

my voting would go Brees, Manning, Johnson, Rivers, Favre

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

The whole "most valuable" aspect of the award is really a misnomer.

It adds another degree of subjectiveness to a completely subjective argument. The QB position is clearly the most important position on a team because of the responsibility it carries.

Based on results this season there's a strong argument that Troy Polamalu is the "most valuable".

IMO the award should be based on who performs best in their position and who is clearly ahead of the pack in that position.

However that's never how it's decided. It's usually the best player on the best performing team.

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

One player I reckon is grossly underrated for what he brings to the team is Kurt Warner.

His performances seem to fly under the radar due to preconceived perceptions people have about him (and his missus)

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: 2009 / 10 mvp

I don't have a problem with the idea that the best performing player on the best performing team deserves the award...cos you have a star-studded team and yet one guy stands out, or has contributed so much to that team's success. Whereas a stand-out on a shit team is less difficult to accomplish given so many shit players.

Not sure if they have some mickey mouse awards for other positions, but what they should have is an award for 'MVP' of every position.

K, P, LB, DL, DB, QB, HB, FB, TE, WR, OL + HC, DC, OC, GM, Owner.

And then from there they select one person from that group to receive the League MVP award, which is changed now that anyone can win it from that group, any offensive/defensive player at this point all treated equally.

 

[11sjw]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Brees or Manning (and not the crappy Blue Manning ).

 

[juddy_Like]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Maybe Brees needs to do a few more commercials.



He is far out-performing Manning (or anyone for that matter) at this stage of the year.

 

[footylover18]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

JD is right about how the MVP award is decided.

my opinion on how the MVP award should be voted is replace the player in contention for the award with an average player at the same position and ask yourself how woudl the team perform? ie replace Favre with a decent QB (not bad or very very good, but just good) and how would the Vikings be doing? Replace Chris Johnson with an average RB how woudl the Titans be going? etc etc.

Under this criteria my current leaderboard thus far would be:

1. Chris Johnson
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Btw, I also agree with what Catters said about Rivers.
Imo, the last couple of years he's pushed himself right up into the elite 2-3 QBs.
I rate him higher than Brees as a QB (imho), cos of the more straight scheme he runs compared to Payton's multi-faceted one, and he seldom falters.

But really it's like a hair between all those guys below Manning/Brady...
Rivers, Roethlisberger, Warner, Brees, McNabb, etc.

 

[footylover18]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Btw, I also agree with what Catters said about Rivers.
Imo, the last couple of years he's pushed himself right up into the elite 2-3 QBs.
I rate him higher than Brees as a QB (imho), cos of the more straight scheme he runs compared to Payton's multi-faceted one, and he seldom falters.

But really it's like a hair between all those guys below Manning/Brady...
Rivers, Roethlisberger, Warner, Brees, McNabb, etc.

I don't put Brady in that tier 1 of QBs. Give me Brees above Brady every day of the week.

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Brady has a career of achievments, wins, and stats behind him that Brees doesnt have yet. If you're talking ONLY this season, then yes. But Brady has done more than enough over 10 years or whatever. Brees has only really done anything under Payton the last few years.

 

[juddy_Like]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Yep exactly.
Wouldnt write Brady off just yet.

 

[footylover18]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Brady has a career of achievments, wins, and stats behind him that Brees doesnt have yet. If you're talking ONLY this season, then yes. But Brady has done more than enough over 10 years or whatever. Brees has only really done anything under Payton the last few years.

Ok, if you're using the argument that Brees has only ever done anything under Payton then you gotta extend the same logic towards Brady. What has Brady done without BB? That's obviously a rhetorical question but the point remains, all the wins, SB wins etc etc yeh Brady was a big part of that but so was BB and the excellent Patriot defense. Would Brady have had any of the success he's had if he didnt have the fortune of playing for the Patriots? I doubt it. What sort of numbers was Brady putting up before the Patriots stole Randy Moss? Sure, with the greatest WR in the history of the NFL (imo) and the best slot receiver in the NFL he put up a record breaking year, but even in 2007 do you remember the amazing protection he got? It was basically drop back assess if Moss was open downfield if not check it down to Welker, that was basically their offense. Prior to that 2007 season Brady had never broken 30TDs in one season and thrown at least 12INT each season, not like he wasn't throwing the ball either. Of course Brady is good, not disputing that, but if i was starting a team he wouldn't be my #1choice, or my #2 choice.

Also, ive noticed you keep saying that Brees hasn't done anything when not with Payton. That's not entirely true, his last 2 years with SD were excellent in fact there was a huge debate about what SD should do when it became time to decide if they were going to stick with Brees or let him walk and give Rivers a shot. He didn't come out of nowhere for NO, he showed a lot in those last 2 yrs with SD.

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Like someone said earlier in the thread....put another QB in that team and how would that team perform etc. Cassell's 2008 effort kinda deflects Brady a little. But Cassell still didn't do what Brady has done, or shown the same actual QB expertise (mechanics, vision, leadership, etc).

Put Rivers in NO and they'd still be high-ocatane, not missing a beat. Put Brees in SD's system and oh, that already was the case once, he performed well, but not like Rivers has last two years, and certainly not anywhere near the levels he's achieved in Payton's system.

Payton's system is very similar to Marc Trestman's (Raiders OC when Gannon broke a lot of records).

Also, an argument for Brady still is that he has had barely any decent WRs, constant OC change, and yet has never faltered or worsened or even played under par. Compared to P.Manning who always had the one stable system, coaches, WRs. Plus Brady came straight into that Patriots team the year they beat the Rams, and without any experience just took them over and lead them to playoff wins and SB wins etc. Regardless of whether he was a system QB or not, for a young QB to come in like that and immediately be a SB god speaks volumes of his own ability.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Put Rivers in NO and they'd still be high-ocatane, not missing a beat. Put Brees in SD's system and oh, that already was the case once, he performed well, but not like Rivers has last two years, and certainly not anywhere near the levels he's achieved in Payton's system.

Payton's system is very similar to Marc Trestman's (Raiders OC when Gannon broke a lot of records).

Uh...

They changed the system two years ago when they changed head coach.

 

[footylover18]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Like someone said earlier in the thread....put another QB in that team and how would that team perform etc. Cassell's 2008 effort kinda deflects Brady a little. But Cassell still didn't do what Brady has done, or shown the same actual QB expertise (mechanics, vision, leadership, etc).

Put Rivers in NO and they'd still be high-ocatane, not missing a beat. Put Brees in SD's system and oh, that already was the case once, he performed well, but not like Rivers has last two years, and certainly not anywhere near the levels he's achieved in Payton's system.

Payton's system is very similar to Marc Trestman's (Raiders OC when Gannon broke a lot of records).

Also, an argument for Brady still is that he has had barely any decent WRs, constant OC change, and yet has never faltered or worsened or even played under par. Compared to P.Manning who always had the one stable system, coaches, WRs. Plus Brady came straight into that Patriots team the year they beat the Rams, and without any experience just took them over and lead them to playoff wins and SB wins etc. Regardless of whether he was a system QB or not, for a young QB to come in like that and immediately be a SB god speaks volumes of his own ability.

Im definately not arguing Brees has had a better career than Brady. I'm talking who are the best QBs in the league today, not just on form but who i'd take if i was starting a team.

You can't compare what Rivers is doing now in SD to what Brees was doing in SD 4 yrs ago. Completely different teams, different coaches etc etc big difference from Marty-ball to a norv turner offense. It's hard to compare apples with apples when we're playing this game but you gotta do better than that.

Cassell highlights my point completely. I remember his first few games after Brady got hurt, the guy looked HORRIBLE, like are the Patriots gonna win ANY games with this guy at QB? By the end of the season he had at least 2 teams trying to trade for him and had signed a $63million contract. The reason why he wasn't able to put up better numbers with the Pats as because he didn't have the arm strength of Brady and thus they couldn't use Randy Moss vertically. I agree Brady hasn't had an elite set of WRs prior to his current crop, but the WRs in NO aren't all exactly high draft picks, Peyton is throwing to Wayne (who aside from being a GREAT route runner hasn't really got an elite athletic skill) and basically a couple of rookie WRs. You're using the argument that Brady has the runs of the board in terms of wins, SBs etc and then say that Brees is only putting up these numbers because of Payton, but Brady has those SB wins at leat in part because of BB.

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

There's not much difference between those schemes in SD.
There's a bigger difference between 'straighter' offenses and systems like Payton/Trestman/Martz/Haley types.

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

There's more to Brady than a 'bigger arm'.
Vision, awareness, leadership, mechanics, the 'OC'ing aspects...all the intangible stuff.
If BB's system is so good any QB would become a Brady then...but they let go Gutierrez, O'Connell, Walter, Bledsoe wasnt Brady-like, and Hoyle or whatever his name is would be a guaranteed SB QB.
And Cassell wasnt really THAT good last year either.

I'm not saying btw that Brees is nothing but a product of Payton's system, because it's the same argument I'm using for Brady---that despite the system, a QB still has to be a good QB.

But what Im saying is that Payton's system is very genius-like, Payton is the real star of why the Saints offense has been so high-octane since he got the HC job there. It's why the Raiders exploded with Gannon under Trestman's system. Why Kitna had a whale of a statistical year under Martz. Why Warner exploded under Haley last season. Even going back to guys like Dan Fouts and the high-octane systems they ran that really inflated QBs stats due to the genius and/or pass-heaviness of the schemes.

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

GG, I don't know why but you really seem to have a bee in your bonnet with Sean Payton and by extension, Brees.

Every time one of these debates start it's patently obvious.

In the game day thread you even went as far to suggest Gradkowski will be rated ahead of Brees. Why Brees?

The other thing that still amazes me is this ridiculous notion that the Saints would miss Brees less than the Colts would miss Manning (or any other team and their best QB).

Both Indy & NO have offenses built around the strengths of their QB's. Both would struggle without their starting QB for that reason. How either would perform without them is impossible to know because both would change how their O runs without them.

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: 2009/2010 mvp

Even going back to guys like Dan Fouts and the high-octane systems they ran that really inflated QBs stats due to the genius and/or pass-heaviness of the schemes.

The Saints this year are almost 50/50 in the pass/run ratio this season.

And for the love of God, please explain how either Indy or NE aren't pass-heavy offenses?