Mega Thread The 2017 'Buckley's Chances' Thread

[Carringbush2010]

Buckley got us to a Prelim and an Elimination Final

Next....

There are arguments that mm could've got us another flag and buckley only got us to a prelim

Next....

 

[whiskeytown]

https://www.zerohanger.com/waldron-...693/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=AFL+Memes

Doubt Bucks ends up at the Suns...

But how do people rate Eade back at Collingwood in some capacity?

Having Eade back at the pies in the football dept might help secure some Vic talent away from the Suns in the same way Sos has at Carlton.

 

[ppoiter]

Ellis, Sewell and Bailey are cooked how are we going to replace them. Bateman's gone too oh noes. Osborne's cooked and Guerra's slowing down. Clinton Young's gone as well. We also lost Williams, Gilham and Ladson and Croad before hand as well.
Oh wait wrong team.


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Don't worry we'll be fine, we've still got Hodge, Gibson, Mitchell, Lewis, Burgoyne, Rioli, and Roughhead. Lake and Frawley will be useful additions in the backline and Smith is a very good icing on the cake type player. Gunston and Breust go alright up forward too.

Oh wait wrong team

 

[mike123]

I agree, you made a nice try but if you're going to throw up flippant responses you need to at least be accurate. Croad never recovered from the GF injury and retired after not playing a game in 2009 so he's a long way shy of your 2012 unless you're suggesting that 3 years is an acceptable margin of error. I haven't even checked any of the names thrown up, they may all be wrong based on this rather obvious mistake.

Again it doesn't contradict my point and it's not a mistake, I never said he retired at 2012 said he retired beforehand so I'm still correct, nice try though you almost got me. You need to just accept the fact you can't use the player x was cooked argument anymore it doesn't hold up. You can clutch at straws all you and cherry pick all you want but you're going nowhere.


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[mike123]

Lake and Frawley will be useful additions in the backline

What's that Hawthorn added players to their team? Did they replace their old and cooked players? What's this sorcery?


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[PieBeast]

I just don't get why people say bad things about you PB.

Tall poppy syndrome mate, just like with Bucks.

 

[mike123]

Can aspire to be like Hawthorn at their peak but how realistic is it?

With good drafting and trading and a good coach it's realistic. The compromised drafts helped them but I'd argue that's all the more reason to try and stay up instead of go the rebuild.


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[mike123]

It's a good point.

The understanding and synchronicity between Clarkson and his list managers and recruiters at the time, Graham Wright and Buckanara were far superior to the one we still see today between Buckley and Hyne.

Some players have worked, others have failed miserably.

What you can contend is that while Hawthorn were able to define and fill their main needs and most important playing pieces, we went out and recruited Clinton Young, Quinten Lynch, Jesse White, Chris Mayne, Daniel Wells etc etc.

Comes back to my whole "Buckley has never been the only one to blame and just maybe, he might be able to coach" thing.

I agree with your first two points, my problem with the last is one Buckley hasn't shown he can coach even when he's had a relatively healthy list. If it's been 6 years and the best you can come up with is maybe is it enough for mine.


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[ppoiter]

What's that Hawthorn added players to their team? Did they replace their old and cooked players? What's this sorcery?


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Sure, they traded/used FA better than us, can add McEvoy to that list to a lesser extent and I suppose Gibson would be part of that. Point was they had a great core that we didnt

 

[magpie_marty]

The thing about a rebuild and i look at players on our list with genuine pace as in leg speed,which i think we do lack.
And i only see Varcoe and Wells with great speed.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

With good drafting and trading and a good coach it's realistic. The compromised drafts helped them but I'd argue that's all the more reason to try and stay up instead of go the rebuild.


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The Pies were never going to get near it.
I look at the guts of their list during the peak and just shake my head. IMO, we didn't have the similar guns on every line or coming through. The organisations were and still are poles apart.

 

[jdpie]

People still speculating that the list was cooked immediately after 2011. lol. On the bolded could you please explain why anyone would not hold confidence in a team that went 20 - 2 with a 167 %age; highest ever recorded?

Yeah nah you're right we were just going to fall off the earth after a gf appearance

My recollection is we made a prelim in 2012 and semi in 2013 ? Was not alluding to falling off a cliff. My commentary was not a suggestion of the list being cooked rather a suggestion that it was not worthy of the dynasty speculation or post historical whimsy.

 

[Carringbush2010]

rather a suggestion that it was not worthy of the dynasty

There's also suggestions that the list was worthy, but we'll never know because it never had the chance to prove or disprove

 

[mike123]

Sure, they traded/used FA better than us, can add McEvoy to that list to a lesser extent and I suppose Gibson would be part of that. Point was they had a great core that we didnt

You mean like Swan, Pendlebury, Beams, Reid Cloke and Shaw. We still he good players we just didn't complement them enough.


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[jdpie]

There's also suggestions that the list was worthy, but we'll never know because it never had the chance to prove or disprove

I can't see Dawes, Wellingham, Blair, Toovey, Caff, Dasiy (injured) and H being dynastic. All bar Blair suffered injury or anguish in ways that were irrelevant to coaching. I just think we remember these guys as bigger and brighter than they were. We may see the same thing with a number of the Dogs players that won last year.

 

[mike123]

The Pies were never going to get near it.
I look at the guts of their list during the peak and just shake my head. IMO, we didn't have the similar guns on every line or coming through. The organisations were and still are poles apart.

They made better choices the us. Had we made better choices we could have done something similar.


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[mike123]

I can't see Dawes, Wellingham, Blair, Toovey, Caff, Dasiy (injured) and H being dynastic. All bar Blair suffered injury or anguish in ways that were irrelevant to coaching. I just think we remember these guys as bigger and brighter than they were. We may see the same thing with a number of the Dogs players that won last year.

I can't see McEvoy, Sheils, Puopolo, Suckling and Duryea being Dynastic either.


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[ppoiter]

You mean like Swan, Pendlebury, Beams, Reid Cloke and Shaw. We still he good players we just didn't complement them enough.


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Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Burgoyne, Rioli, and Roughhead were ahead in ability and output from 2012 - 2015 over the group you named. I'd say quite clearly in fact. And then what about the next six players? Their comparative ability matters too. I think we actually have basically the same opinion of Buckley as a coach, and I would also lament our non drafted acquisitions over that period. But to say that we had a comparable list and could have been Hawthorn if we didnt have a spud coach is taking it a bit far

 

[jdpie]

I can't see McEvoy, Sheils, Puopolo, Suckling and Duryea being Dynastic either.


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Bit tough on Big Boy and Shiels. Outstanding role players.

 

[mike123]

Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Burgoyne, Rioli, and Roughhead were ahead in ability and output from 2012 - 2015 over the group you named. I'd say quite clearly in fact. And then what about the next six players? Their comparative ability matters too. I think we actually have basically the same opinion of Buckley as a coach, and I would also lament our non drafted acquisitions over that period. But to say that we had a comparable list and could have been Hawthorn if we didnt have a spud coach is taking it a bit far

No I said if we didn't have a spud coach and made better list management decisions.


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[mike123]

Bit tough on Big Boy and Shiels. Outstanding role players.

You were harsh on our blokes too, H didn't get an AA for nothing and Wellers played in another grand final since leaving.


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[Carringbush2010]

I can't see Dawes, Wellingham, Blair, Toovey, Caff, Dasiy (injured) and H being dynastic

You can't see it, others including myself can - but we'll never know as it was never given the chance. So whatever anyone says what might've happened can only be taken as speculation

 

[ppoiter]

No I said if we didn't have a spud coach and made better list management decisions.


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Fine whatever, of course we would have been better off with a better coach and better list management, but we weren't beating Hawthorn.

 

[jackcass]

This is kind of where my previous post was alluding to.

We need to completely strip it back and concentrate on analyse the main function of Bucks job which is coaching.

If we can satisfy ourselves that Buckley can coach this team, he actually has a viable game plan which is tailored to the players strength. Then the stuff about player injuries, list management decisions isn't as important because we know we have a good coach that can adapt to these situations.

No example better than Hawthorn. We can see this season that after a horror start, injuries and the recruitment of Ty Vickery, Al Clarkson is slowly turning around the form of Hawthorn whereby they are finishing the season strong. That is the value of having an very good coach. You never hear him making excuses that we are too young. We are missing Mitchell and Lewis etc etc.

Clarkson was doing some flipping and flopping earlier in the year and while they're performing at the moment I can't see them amounting to much in 2017 and there's further pain ahead due to the residual aging warriors.

I think footy success is largely about the squad, the chemistry of the playing group, group motivation, a huge dose of luck and a pinch of coaching thrown in for good measure. Hawthorn for example, nearly anyone could have coached them to a couple of their last 3 flags. Clarkson's claim to fame is getting them up in 2008, not their 3-peat although a 3-peat will always look good on a resume.

I don't think there is a lot between coaches other than the more critical aspects cited above of squad, chemistry, and motivation. Footy is still largely a see ball, get ball, move it forward, score sort of a game. There have been very few real innovations over the year that have fundamentally changed the game, merely adaptations of those few innovations. Faster ball movement, the cluster, the press, the spread, maximising the interchange. Where coaches come into their own is how they facilitate and enhance the more critical aspects cited and a healthy dollop of luck.

IMO what happens game day is largely pre-scripted and style of play as a team dictated again by the squad you have rather than any coaching genius. You occasionally see a move that dramatically alters the course of a game but they're rare and generally reliant upon having certain types in your team. Think swing men like Harry Taylor and Ben Reid.

Success is cyclic and there is no avoiding that. We're in a down cycle, shit happens. Timing of that is unfortunate as it coincided with a cluster of years of compromised drafts, expansion of clubs and therefore a dilution of the talent pool, some unlucky high pick outcomes with Scharenberg and Freeman, and a horrendous run of injuries over multiple years. I've said more than once I doubt any coach would have done better over the last 3 years. This year has been disappointing in terms of results but there has been a quantifiable improvement in our performances in nearly every on-field except sadly our work inside 50 and the reality is if that'd shown the same level of improvement as other aspects then the tone of the discussion on this and other boards would be much different.

 

[mike123]

Fine whatever, of course we would have been better off with a better coach and better list management, but we weren't beating Hawthorn.

That's just a cop out.


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