the $64,000 question

[Crow-mo]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/ne...-sitting-pretty/2008/09/08/1220857458501.html

Mick Malthouse's handling of his young Magpies has to be acknowledged. Put his team in suits and walk them down Bourke Street, and half of them wouldn't be recognised. The coach has transformed Paul Medhurst from one of the most selfish footballers to one of the most selfless. The decision to run defender Nick Maxwell on the Crows' best midfielder Scott Thompson was a beauty. The Pies had 13 goalkickers. They spread the load in all they do.

How do you judge Adelaide coach Neil Craig? Does he do a good job getting an ordinary group of players regularly into finals. Or does the coach not have enough tricks to upset the opposition when the heat is at it's greatest? Craig's in-season record stands at 62%, his finals record is 29%.

I dunno the answer to this question, but I sure am uncomfortable with ignoring it much longer.

what's going on? discuss.

 

[Vince Van Mackay]

Alot of reasons, one of them likely a lack of players that work well under pressure.

Then there is luck.

2005:
Qualifying Final
-Roo suspended, lost by a handful of points Should of won it.

2005:
Prelim
-In Perth against soon to be bogey team, tough one to win for any team.

2006:
Prelim
- Late season injuries, missing first choice star players, and having players play underdone like Burton, the icing on the bad luck cake was Rhett Biglands doing his knee making Clarke ruck the game out, tiring and resulting in West Coast dominating the clearances in the 2nd half. Though we could have pinched that one too.

2007:
Elimination Final
A kick away from winning.
One really poor decision by Scott Thompson, who could have rushed a bloody behind and we would have won, or could have done anything other than what he did.

2008:
Elimination Final
Lost to a terrible team in a game we should have won, absolute pathetic display by majority of senior players, pathetic and no excuses, regardless of rebuilding, thats just a cop out.

In conclusion, I'm not too sure, you need alot of luck to win a Premiership, and Adelaide seem to run out of it at crucial times. At the same time the list management and gamestyle don't really lend to super performances, shit its barely entertaining.

I don't know about anyone on here, but I've hardly been entertained by the Crows this year.

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

From a bigger picture point of view (which clearly this season was), I think the real question is...are we happy with how we managed the list from this point last year (the moment we lost to Hawthorn) to this point.

If the answer is no, then Neil Craig shouldn't be our coach.

If the answer is yes, then Neil Craig is probably his own worst enemy by making the finals consistently, because realistically (even if we beat Collingwood) we aren't a genuine premiership contender - it was only a matter of time until we lost.

Craigy has turned the list over immensely since the Hawthorn game, not just out list but also our playing 22. Have we improved since that Hawthorn game? I would say no, but THEN you take into account our forward line wasn't McGregor, Welsh...it was Tippett, Moran etc who all need game time to improve.

The average age of our team is much younger than last years final, much less experienced, and hence it isn't really a case of 'we are not improving'. That is a fools perspective.

Our elim final team this year is almost a year younger, and around 40 games less experienced than last years.

Let's face it, we all thought we would finish bottom 8.

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

Interesting also to note that Collingwood were 'on average' a much bigger side than us.

 

[Vince Van Mackay]

I didn't think we would finish bottom 8 this year at any point, I just thought we would use young players more, both in games played and in gametime which quite frankly hasn't been much for the younger players. I mean people can rattle off how many debuts we've had, but thats just a cop out. Its games, gametime and responsibility in those games which are important. Oh James Sellar debuted, woopdy ****ing do.

Look I didn't think we'd win the Premiership by any stretch of the imagination, I just expected us to beat a completely shit Collingwood team in a Home Elimination Final.

 

[DaveW]

That's a crude statistic. Think about it: by design you're playing better teams in the finals, so naturally the win % is going to be lower.

Nonetheless, two wins and five losses is a disappointing balance sheet. Especially when three of those losses have been at home.

 

[Southerntakeover]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/ne...-sitting-pretty/2008/09/08/1220857458501.html



I dunno the answer to this question, but I sure am uncomfortable with ignoring it much longer.

what's going on? discuss.

The clubs demonstrated their opinion on that. Our actions in the last year (the turning over of our list) was an admission that our group wasnt good enough to win the flag.

 

[BunjiMac]

Hypothetical time.....
lets say leigh mathews was intersted in coaching another club and NC was not signed to a contract, if you were the afc board would you actively persue mathews?

I think i would.

 

[dplggr47]

The clubs demonstrated their opinion on that. Our actions in the last year (the turning over of our list) was an admission that our group wasnt good enough to win the flag.

i agree; and with list development, we'd still be at least a few years away.

Geelong picked up most of their prized recruits (Bartel, Kelly, Steve Johnson, Gary Ablett Jr, Mackie, Lonergan) during the 2001 superdraft and 2002 draft...not to mention cashing in well in the 1999 draft (Corey, Chapman, Ling, Enright...and Mooney from a trade) and won their premiership in 2007 and most likely 2008 as well...they developed their list and were involved in a couple trades (Ottens and Mooney)
...takes years to do...plus some father/son selections (Ablett, Ablett and Blake) and great recruiting. in those years, Geelong finished 11th (1999), 12th (2001) and 9th (2002).

 

[James23]

i agree; and with list development, we'd still be at least a few years away.

Geelong picked up most of their prized recruits (Bartel, Kelly, Steve Johnson, Gary Ablett Jr, Mackie, Lonergan) during the 2001 superdraft and 2002 draft...not to mention cashing in well in the 1999 draft (Corey, Chapman, Ling, Enright...and Mooney from a trade) and won their premiership in 2007 and most likely 2008 as well...they developed their list and were involved in a couple trades (Ottens and Mooney)
...takes years to do...plus some father/son selections (Ablett, Ablett and Blake) and great recruiting. in those years, Geelong finished 11th (1999), 12th (2001) and 9th (2002).

...and Tom Hawkins and Matthew Scarlett

 

[The Crows Truth]

I didn't think we would finish bottom 8 this year at any point, I just thought we would use young players more, both in games played and in gametime which quite frankly hasn't been much for the younger players. I mean people can rattle off how many debuts we've had, but thats just a cop out. Its games, gametime and responsibility in those games which are important. Oh James Sellar debuted, woopdy ****ing do.

Look I didn't think we'd win the Premiership by any stretch of the imagination, I just expected us to beat a completely shit Collingwood team in a Home Elimination Final.

the loss on saturday was as bad as any of craigs finals losses - equalling saints in 05. we should have won it, no doubt

but lets stop this crap that some are saying re pies being a shit team. in the last 5 weeks they have won 4 games including an against the odds win in an interstate final and also wins against 2 OF THE REMAINING 6 TEAMS left in the finals race - saints and swans. oh, and the nucleus of this team also beat for the only time this year a certain team by 70-80 points............

its pure stupidity to say they are a shit. they have quality father sons and numerous top level draft picks in pendlebury, thomas and fraser etc

 

[relapse]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/ne...-sitting-pretty/2008/09/08/1220857458501.html



I dunno the answer to this question, but I sure am uncomfortable with ignoring it much longer.

what's going on? discuss.

I think your post does raise a very valid point. Maybe the talk of crowbots and not taking risks or playing without flair are valid and maybe this is what hurts us come finals time.

Some questions have to be asked about the mentality of the coaching staff and players come finals time obviously the competitive safe style of play isnt holding up come finals time. I think some of what Malthouse said could be true about the 1-0 hold the lead philosophy of the club. While in the regular season there is usually next week for those teams, but finals are do or die so those teams are not going to concede when they are five goals down and will try and come back.

 

[jenny61_99]

i agree; and with list development, we'd still be at least a few years away.

Geelong picked up most of their prized recruits (Bartel, Kelly, Steve Johnson, Gary Ablett Jr, Mackie, Lonergan) during the 2001 superdraft and 2002 draft...not to mention cashing in well in the 1999 draft (Corey, Chapman, Ling, Enright...and Mooney from a trade) and won their premiership in 2007 and most likely 2008 as well...they developed their list and were involved in a couple trades (Ottens and Mooney)
...takes years to do...plus some father/son selections (Ablett, Ablett and Blake) and great recruiting. in those years, Geelong finished 11th (1999), 12th (2001) and 9th (2002).

This is exactly what I was trying to point out in the Deconstructing Success thread. Geelongs core group of 17 players have all played 100+ games and have an average age of 26.5 and most of them stars. In contrast, our core group of 15 players that have played 100+ games include 5 guys aged 30+ (2 who have just retired, one who hasn't played for us for most of the year, and one on the long term injury list) and have an average age of 27.8. Our core group is also filled with predominantly blue collar types with very few stars.

 

[footy4ever]

This is a riddle in that the answer lies in the question, and while we know it will change for the better, 'ordinary group of players' seems to stand out a bit, even though it sticks in the craw of some posters.

 

[footy4ever]

the loss on saturday was as bad as any of craigs finals losses - equalling saints in 05. we should have won it, no doubt

but lets stop this crap that some are saying re pies being a shit team. in the last 5 weeks they have won 4 games including an against the odds win in an interstate final and also wins against 2 OF THE REMAINING 6 TEAMS left in the finals race - saints and swans. oh, and the nucleus of this team also beat for the only time this year a certain team by 70-80 points............

its pure stupidity to say they are a shit. they have quality father sons and numerous top level draft picks in pendlebury, thomas and fraser etc

Spot on.

 

[hoareyyy]

Hypothetical time.....
lets say leigh mathews was intersted in coaching another club and NC was not signed to a contract, if you were the afc board would you actively persue mathews?

I think i would.

deffinalty has proven he can do the job

 

[noddy]

If next year resembles this year then i believe Craigy will pull the plug without any encouragement from the club.

Sad but dems the breaks.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

That's a crude statistic. Think about it: by design you're playing better teams in the finals, so naturally the win % is going to be lower.

True. Also, 7 of the 8 teams are guaranteed to end their campaign with a loss.

What is troubling though is that we've lost several finals to teams that ranked below us during the minor round. And in four finals series we have not beaten a single team placed above us.

Going in to finals series now it almost feels as though history is repeating. Is our group battle-scarred? Do they know how to win a final? Alec Stewart, Michael Atherton, Darren Gough, Graham Thorpe, Nasser Hussain, Andy Caddick... all these guys had to make way before the Poms could finally taste any success in the Ashes.

 

[xamol]

Really Nod, its hard to see if there will be any improvement. Moran and Tippet will need to step up in a big way. You cant expect much from Goodwin, McLeod and Edwards, so other must/need to improve.
I would imagine Dangerfield would a good "in", but a few really need to take the next step now.

 

[KingsCrow]

Thing is it was a 50/50 game.


Ignore the final margin, that only occured because we had some pea hearted players who literally gave up in the remaining minutes.




If Adelaide had won (and we easily could have dispite playing so shit) then it would be Malthouse who would have been flogged to death.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

I think your post does raise a very valid point. Maybe the talk of crowbots and not taking risks or playing without flair are valid and maybe this is what hurts us come finals time.

Some questions have to be asked about the mentality of the coaching staff and players come finals time obviously the competitive safe style of play isnt holding up come finals time. I think some of what Malthouse said could be true about the 1-0 hold the lead philosophy of the club. While in the regular season there is usually next week for those teams, but finals are do or die so those teams are not going to concede when they are five goals down and will try and come back.

I think Neil Craig is still haunted by ghosts of thumpings past. Did getting hammered by 146 points in his first year as coach, leave more scars then we thought. His natural instinct is to go defensive, even when we have momentum - ie Macca/Burton/Bode starting on the bench in the second half against WC in the 2006 PF/ Stevens moved down back on the weekend.

 

[Vince Van Mackay]

the loss on saturday was as bad as any of craigs finals losses - equalling saints in 05. we should have won it, no doubt

but lets stop this crap that some are saying re pies being a shit team. in the last 5 weeks they have won 4 games including an against the odds win in an interstate final and also wins against 2 OF THE REMAINING 6 TEAMS left in the finals race - saints and swans. oh, and the nucleus of this team also beat for the only time this year a certain team by 70-80 points............

its pure stupidity to say they are a shit. they have quality father sons and numerous top level draft picks in pendlebury, thomas and fraser etc

They.are.shit

 

[PAFC04]

the loss on saturday was as bad as any of craigs finals losses - equalling saints in 05. we should have won it, no doubt

but lets stop this crap that some are saying re pies being a shit team. in the last 5 weeks they have won 4 games including an against the odds win in an interstate final and also wins against 2 OF THE REMAINING 6 TEAMS left in the finals race - saints and swans. oh, and the nucleus of this team also beat for the only time this year a certain team by 70-80 points............

its pure stupidity to say they are a shit. they have quality father sons and numerous top level draft picks in pendlebury, thomas and fraser etc

Great Post..........at last some one who has given credit to Collingwood.

Neil Craig, as good as he his and what he generated from his players is fantastic. He needs more time, (if you have the patience) to learn from finals mistakes.

You also have to consider he has had to contend with injuries. Burton, Porps was the major factor in the end that Neil Craig didn't have.

There is a lot of talk that teams have to bottom out to be a genuine contender, but if you have a coach like Neil Craig bottoming out is not required. However, a good high draft pick does help a lot, and the trend is some what showing that is it taking affect.

But I think time is not on your side because of the ages of the main back bone of your team.

If it was a 50/50 game, then it all comes down to coaches, who has had the better finals results on their careers, because the game was won there.

 

[thebirdman 24]

Neil Craig should be fitness coach, still associated with pre-game preperation and whatnot, but when it comes to the senior position, i wouldn't pass up on Leigh Matthews. He is someone who i believe could do alot of good for the club as senior coach. Something like 3 premierships as coach 3 as player, and i dont believe with our tactics and gameplan under Neil Craig that we will experience that soon.

but hey what say do i have we've signed neil on for another 3 (or whatever it is) years and made him very comfortable. If we were going to do anything, we should've given him a 1 year to keep him on his toes.

 

[tribey]

2005:
Qualifying Final
-Roo suspended, lost by a handful of points Should of won it.

- Bock out with a back strain.
- Completely shat the bed by moving Ken McGregor - who was absolutely on fire as the only forward worth a damn - down back at the start of the second quarter to double-team Nick Riewoldt, who had looked threatening on Hentschel but hadn't actually caught fire.

Handed St. Kilda the initiative and didn't get it back until the last quarter.