The $64000 question

[40yearBLUE]

Of all the player issues at the club, the question of Fev is IMO the most crucial. Not just the playing structure around him in the forward line and how we function after Fev but the question of team discipline and moral.

I went to the Sydney game and commented in a thread at how disappointed I was that Fev was still the same old Fev, playing the game he wanted to, chasing if he wanted to. What I didnt know was that he was arguing with Wiggins and disobeying coaching instructions.

How important is he to our future that he can disobey a coaching move during a game and not be playing in the magoos the next week?

This is an excellent article on the dilemna the club has faced and still does:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnew...1240982406755.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

I think everyone knows my feelings on team over individual and if it were my call to make we would have traded him years ago. I love his skill, and when he is on I marvel at him, but for me the team is more important than the individual and often the goals on game day mask the damage to moral and discipline.

Thoughts?

 

[diesel1]

Not sure if it's totally relevant, but while I was watching the game last night on channel 7, they have a segment "7 plays in 7 days". It showed after Fev kicked a goal and was celebrating, Cameron Cloke came to hi 5 him and you could see Fev saying "f*** off" and Cloke saying like "what the f***!

 

[blue_boys]

Not sure if it's totally relevant, but while I was watching the game last night on channel 7, they have a segment "7 plays in 7 days". It showed after Fev kicked a goal and was celebrating, Cameron Cloke came to hi 5 him and you could see Fev saying "f*** off" and Cloke saying like "what the f***!

I saw that as well... not sure what's going on there

 

[40yearBLUE]

Not sure if it's totally relevant, but while I was watching the game last night on channel 7, they have a segment "7 plays in 7 days". It showed after Fev kicked a goal and was celebrating, Cameron Cloke came to hi 5 him and you could see Fev saying "f*** off" and Cloke saying like "what the f***!

I havent seen it yet, but I am going to assume the highlight was Fevs over the shoulder snap for his 500th. With mouth guards in it is possible that Fev said "500!" and Cloke said "well done 500". Benefit of the doubt on that one I think. If it wasnt that goal then you may well be right. In the same game we saw Cloke hug Carlos in celebration of his goal, so I dont think you can question Clokes team spirit.

 

[Dramoth]

Jack Niall...

enough said, the guy is a deadset numpty...

 

[40yearBLUE]

Jack Niall...

enough said, the guy is a deadset numpty...

Did you read the article or dismiss it because of the author? If you read it, what are your thoughts on it? Dont you think the article poses the most important question the club faces? On the one hand you have a match winning talent that had won us games off his own boot. But a talent that may be eating at the underlying fibre of the club and a talent that is slowly going to wane and his trade value decreases each year, so even if you decided to trade him, the longer you hold him the less value he brings.

What are your thoughts on the article subject not the author?

 

[diesel1]

I havent seen it yet, but I am going to assume the highlight was Fevs over the shoulder snap for his 500th. With mouth guards in it is possible that Fev said "500!" and Cloke said "well done 500". Benefit of the doubt on that one I think. If it wasnt that goal then you may well be right. In the same game we saw Cloke hug Carlos in celebration of his goal, so I dont think you can question Clokes team spirit.

Lol, he didn't have a mouth gaurd in his mouth. Channel 7 highlighted it not because he kicked 500, but because of the obvious spat between the two.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Lol, he didn't have a mouth gaurd in his mouth. Channel 7 highlighted it not because he kicked 500, but because of the obviously spat between the two.

Thanks Diesel, you must be right then, and obviously if Ch7 saw it and rolled it into a highlights package for the reason of the "spat" then it must be an issue bubbling under the surface at the club. There is obviously more going on than we know about, given the stuff that went on V Sydney that we didnt know about either. I hope it isnt causing factions to be created, Fev's side vs the other side. That would be the most concerning. If you read Herds article (I think it was on Malthouse) he mentioned that internal player factions caused problems at the Dons in the mid 90's.

Having said that, I am not overly concerned by this, as you have 22 individuals that dont have to like each other, they just have to work together, and for each other for a common goal. It obvioulsy helps that they like each other but is not critical, so long as they are professional enough to put the differences aside for the team.

If true though, it also highlights the emotional immaturity that Fev often displays. How hard would it be to just go through the motions of the hi 5 and say nothing in the interest of team harmony and unity, but those with weak internal discipline find that hard to do I guess.

The question of Fev is a really tough one. A drawcard and deadset gun on the one hand, and immature prima donna on the other.

 

[Murph_The_Smurf]

Thanks Diesel, you must be right then, and obviously if Ch7 saw it and rolled it into a highlights package for the reason of the "spat" then it must be an issue bubbling under the surface at the club. There is obviously more going on than we know about, given the stuff that went on V Sydney that we didnt know about either. I hope it isnt causing factions to be created, Fev's side vs the other side. That would be the most concerning. If you read Herds article (I think it was on Malthouse) he mentioned that internal player factions caused problems at the Dons in the mid 90's.

Having said that, I am not overly concerned by this, as you have 22 individuals that dont have to like each other, they just have to work together, and for each other for a common goal. It obvioulsy helps that they like each other but is not critical, so long as they are professional enough to put the differences aside for the team.

If true though, it also highlights the emotional immaturity that Fev often displays. How hard would it be to just go through the motions of the hi 5 and say nothing in the interest of team harmony and unity, but those with weak internal discipline find that hard to do I guess.

The question of Fev is a really tough one. A drawcard and deadset gun on the one hand, and immature prima donna on the other.

Just for the record Lance Whitnall hated fevs guts aswell , still does.

 

[blues4flag]

I havent seen it yet, but I am going to assume the highlight was Fevs over the shoulder snap for his 500th. With mouth guards in it is possible that Fev said "500!" and Cloke said "well done 500". Benefit of the doubt on that one I think. If it wasnt that goal then you may well be right. In the same game we saw Cloke hug Carlos in celebration of his goal, so I dont think you can question Clokes team spirit.

Definitely a snub. Fev moved away from Cloke as he told him to **** off. Look on Cloke's face told the story.

On the article, I thought it was overly harsh. In depth and a lot of detail but it failed to acknowledge that Fev has shown this year he can be a part of a more team oriented forward line. Can anyone remember the last time we was sitting second for goals at the club after two rounds, let alone after five?

Can't go into more detail cause I've got to run but Betts 16, Fev 15, Murphy 9 after five rounds is an even as I can remember.

 

[blueblooded]

That is a great article, the Peter Pan analogy is 100% Fev, my insider in the footy department reckons he is the biggest kid he has ever met, always mucking around, chooses when he can be bothered and when he can't on the track, doesn't take life to seriously. He has an infectious personality, that can be both good and bad, there is always life around the place but the lack of consistency in his application on the track could rub off on some of the younger guys. In saying that most of our younger guys don't follow his lead when it comes to work ethic, they follow Judd not suprisingly, Gibbs, Kruez and Murph etc are 100% focused on getting the best out of their bodies like the great man and thats a good sign considering they've got Fev who is a massive influence around the locker room.

I've come to accept Fev for what he is, enigmatic and unique, he is the last of the old style footballers, he plays up, loves the limelight, doesnt think to clearly, but when he says "get out of my way I'm kicking a bag full" nine times out of ten he kicks a bag and steals the show. Great to watch, he is almost like a sub plot in a game, with Judd you know what you're going to get with Fev you never know..

After the whole Dick Pratt thing i think Fev will become more consistent this year, he has always been consistent in kicking goals but i think he'll be a more consistent and focused team player. From all reports he had a pretty interesting relationship with Dick, he is a real clubman Fev and the importance of what Dick has done for the club and the way he loved it will not be lost on any of the players especially Fev who knows more than anyone how bad things got at one stage there. Fev is a pretty loyal and emotional type of guy and I think more than anyone on the list he'll use Dick as a motivating factor to achieve the ultimate team success not only this year but for the rest of his carreer. Sometimes it takes things like this to happen in a football club to make players like Fev realise that the club is bigger than the individual and that the club means alot to alot of people.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Definitely a snub. Fev moved away from Cloke as he told him to **** off. Look on Cloke's face told the story.

On the article, I thought it was overly harsh. In depth and a lot of detail but it failed to acknowledge that Fev has shown this year he can be a part of a more team oriented forward line. Can anyone remember the last time we was sitting second for goals at the club after two rounds, let alone after five?

Can't go into more detail cause I've got to run but Betts 16, Fev 15, Murphy 9 after five rounds is an even as I can remember.

2 points, first as I still have not seen it I cant really comment, but what would make this all the more baffling is that earlier in the game Fev won a hard ball get on the flank and kicked over his shoulder to an umanned Cloke in the square and Cloke goaled and you could see the joy on both their faces as they celebrated together and clearly no animosity between them at that stage mid second quarter. Fevs 500th was early 3rd quarter so you would have to think something must have happened at half time for the attitute between them to change so much.

Second point, the article points out that Fev has not changed his petulant ways as evidenced against the Swans, and if anything may be worsening given that it seems (and we cant just assume because a journo says it happened it did) that he is disobeying team orders. That Fev is no longer the dominant forward is not about Fev, it is about how we structure up and who we deliver through. I am not saying Fev does not play a team role, he does, he just does not do it consistently. I dont think there is any debate about that.

The question is, is Fevs personal output enough to cover over his other short comings. I think it is, but I am increasingly wondering if we should have traded him or if we should still trade him. I love the guy, he is without doubt the best FF in the competition at the moment, but I wonder if longer term he is best for our club. If on the other hand he truly were to change his ways (we have heard him say he will on a number of occasions but nothing seems to have changed much yet) then I would be stoked for him and the team.

 

[mediumsizered]

Not sure if it's totally relevant, but while I was watching the game last night on channel 7, they have a segment "7 plays in 7 days". It showed after Fev kicked a goal and was celebrating, Cameron Cloke came to hi 5 him and you could see Fev saying "f*** off" and Cloke saying like "what the f***!

I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong, but I seem to remember Fev's snub of Cloke happening at 3 quarter time & the commentators called it as being the result of Cloke 'bombing' a long kick at goal instead of going short to Fev. A little bit of editing on Channel 7's part, maybe?

 

[Azul]

For all his faults, he's our only decent tall forward.

Brad Fisher's career seems over , Waite is elsewhere. Kennedy is gone, Edwards and Hartlett haven't broken through.

Wiggins, minus the conversion, and Betts at the moment are our best forwards but hardly key position material. Cloke happens to be in the right place at the right time but wouldn't get a game in most AFL sides. Setanta's time is up but it's testimony to our dire forward structure that the club are willing to give him one last chance - as a forward/ruck rather than a backman.

The expectation is that Caleb Tiller will grow a few cms and fill the void. What if he doesn't grow?

Our only hope, it seems is if Jacobs and Warnock can mature as ruckmen leaving Hampson and Kreuzer as permanent CHF/FF options.

It all comes back to recruitment. In the past 3 drafts we've drafted/traded 3 ruckman and only 1 'tall' in Austin. Concerning the supposed surplus of 190+cm talls on our list, most of Edwards, Hartlett, O'hailpin, Cloke, Bannister and Fisher are strong chances to be delisted at the end of the year, magnifying the problem.

So, regarding Fev, I think the best thing that could happen for him and the club today would be if he was to whack someone. A few weeks off would let his heel heal, refresh his mind plagued by personal issues and give Hampson a chance to develop at FF in his absence.

He may, of course, come out and kick 7 goals today. But he's clearly not been performing as we'd like. Playing injured for the rest of the season mightn't be the best outcome.

Please draft some 193+cm talent this November!

 

[40yearBLUE]

I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that I think Fev missing that last goal is the best thing that could have happened to both him and the club.

He kicks the goal and we win and all is forgiven for another few weeks.

He misses and takes it to heart, applies himself over the coming weeks and months and we win more than we might otherwise have had.

Impossible to prove, but I just have a feeling watching him after the game, it may do more good than harm.

 

[Smell The Glove]

I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that I think Fev missing that last goal is the best thing that could have happened to both him and the club.

He kicks the goal and we win and all is forgiven for another few weeks.

He misses and takes it to heart, applies himself over the coming weeks and months and we win more than we might otherwise have had.

Impossible to prove, but I just have a feeling watching him after the game, it may do more good than harm.

The flip side is that Fev's belief that the teams fortunes revolve around him might actually increase as a result of his eight goals and miss.

But I hope you are right, I really do.

 

[40yearBLUE]

The flip side is that Fev's belief that the teams fortunes revolve around him might actually increase as a result of his eight goals and miss.

But I hope you are right, I really do.

Yes good point, but I think that would have been more the case had we won. He looked fairly shattered after the game, but that said, emotional players like Fev are only as shattered as their next high, so I dont think he will dwell on it negatively. I just hope the teams shrinks get into him and emphasize team team team. Todays was a great team effort, a few players were very down but the rest stepped up the load and we almost got home.

I am very happy with the effort today. I have no issue with the mistakes or the players who made them, they are a natural result of the having pressure applied, and you learn to deal with pressure by playing under pressure. We will emerge a much better team as a result.

 

[Dramoth]

30YB...

I read the article. Some of what he has said has merit. Fev at times has been a thorn in the side of the club with his antics. Niall also did a bit of legwork in tracking down Parkin and Bruce Mathieson and getting their stories.

Fev is disruptive however and some of his antics have led some of his fellow players into situations where the club doesnt want them. However, I think that he is a bit less prone to having his little spats out of the field where it hurts the club.

I watched the start of the third quarter where Fev kicks his 500th and he goes running up to Cloke and high 5's him with a big smile on his face.

I dont know about him being hated by certain people past and present at the club, but Dermott Brereton wasnt the favorite son of the Dawks like everyone says. One of my cousins used to play for them and has a story about him that would have tendency to make people hate him...

People have a tendency to love or hate people based on that persons actions and nothing anyone can do will ever change that.

The $64,000 will only be answered when we play in a grand final with or without Fev in the team.

For the moment, it is looking likely that we will play one with him in the team...

 

[blues4flag]

Might have missed that goal but I ****ing love the man after his game today. Absolute champion and will finish his career at this footy club, as it should be.

 

[40yearBLUE]

30YB...

I read the article. Some of what he has said has merit. Fev at times has been a thorn in the side of the club with his antics. Niall also did a bit of legwork in tracking down Parkin and Bruce Mathieson and getting their stories.

Fev is disruptive however and some of his antics have led some of his fellow players into situations where the club doesnt want them. However, I think that he is a bit less prone to having his little spats out of the field where it hurts the club.

I watched the start of the third quarter where Fev kicks his 500th and he goes running up to Cloke and high 5's him with a big smile on his face.

I dont know about him being hated by certain people past and present at the club, but Dermott Brereton wasnt the favorite son of the Dawks like everyone says. One of my cousins used to play for them and has a story about him that would have tendency to make people hate him...

People have a tendency to love or hate people based on that persons actions and nothing anyone can do will ever change that.

The $64,000 will only be answered when we play in a grand final with or without Fev in the team.

For the moment, it is looking likely that we will play one with him in the team...

I have not seen the incident yet, will watch the you tube vids tonight. I am sceptical but have to take the word of those that saw the 7 highlight package. Fev and Cloke look to be on good terms and it is not little spats that concern me.

Today, he was clearly focused. I love him when he is, whether he gets a bag or not. I hate seeing him when he is frustrated and does not do the little things that turn situations around and inspire team mates to do more. The contrast between today and the Sydney game could not be more stark.

I am always a bit stumped by the emotions of players like Fev that play with their heart on their sleeve. I would have thought that a career flicks by in the twinkling of an eye and that each game out there is something to be enjoyed so frustration for me is hard to see, I would be stoked with every minute of game time, as players like Wiggins seem to be.

Look I am really torn on this one. I dont want the "characters" squashed out of the game for homogonised corporate wasp values that abhore the individual and admire conformity. But, there is something to say for other values such as teamwork, discipline and the work ethic.

I cant see us trading him now. I think that moment has now passed forever and I agree he will be in our side until he retires in about 5 years time. And I agree in that time we will win at least one flag.

 

[Audrey_Horne]

It was definitely a "f**k off" from Fev and he kinda brushes past Cloke's hand. And then what looks like a "f**k you" from Cloke.

 

[Quid]

30 Yr Blue.... YOU ARE A NOB, with way too much time on your hands.

Why would you bag a club champion?

Poor thread!

 

[djudd]

We have 2 guns of the comp in our team juddy/fev

Wow we would of done a lot better today without Fev


not!

 

[40yearBLUE]

30 Yr Blue.... YOU ARE A NOB, with way too much time on your hands.

Why would you bag a club champion?

Poor thread!

2 things, first is a matter of fact, Fev has never won our best and fairest. So he is not a club champion. Is he a champion player yes, and he plays for us but he is yet to win the honor of club champion. And there is a good reason why. Whilst he is on the end of the goals he kicks, he is part of the team that gets the ball to him.

I didnt invent the issue we are discussing, many good loyal Carlton people have debated this issue for years and it reared its ugly head again 2 weeks ago and was brought to light in a newspaper article today.

Go have a look around, pull up my hundreds of posts in defense of every player against negative posters. The thing you might find if you do a little research is that I dont like or dislike any player in our team, players come and go, I dont get caught up on any of them. I love the club and post things that go to the support I have for it. Occasionally (well in fact 4 - 5 players per season) players need to be delisted or traded (so therefore some players wont be on our list next year that are this year) for the future betterment of the club.

I dont beleive we should trade Fev now, not unless the offer was so good that we couldnt refuse. So Fev ought to be with us for about another 5 seasons and I think in that time we will have won at least 1 flag so ergo I believe he will be a premiership player for us.

It is on the record at the club that Fev has been up for trade at times, he even negotiated with Sydney last year (or the year before my memory fades a bit) so he could well have been a Swan now, would you be so precious about this discussion if he was a Swan now? And last year or the year before again I cant remember exactly, we had to drop him for a week because of his ill discipline on the field. There are not new issues. I didnt invent them, they are there for all to see.

And Ratts has made it clear that if we remain Fev centric we have 2 massive issues as a team, first we wont take that final step to elite level now, and once he is gone we would then have an even bigger issue. We have to canvas options and when players display the good and bad that Fev does at times, we have to rationally anylise them to see what we can learn from them.

The second thing is how about thinking about the personal abuse, and debate the issue.

So mate you might want to have another think about your mock outrage and read what has been said. So far this has been a rational and thought provoking thread without the need to see who has the biggest penis.

 

[40yearBLUE]

We have 2 guns of the comp in our team juddy/fev

Wow we would of done a lot better today without Fev


not!

Are you another fooled by the glitter of fools gold? This thread is not about whether we would have been better today without Fev. Your post is typical of the short term thinkers that post on here based on pure base emotion without thinking what the longer term consequences are. As it happens I am not saying we would be better off without him, now, but this question about his character and temperament is one that so far wont go away. Long term if we dont learn to win without Fev kicking 8 we are not going to win enough games to make the finals let alone win one. Have a look at the games we have been able to win, and in each we had 8 or 9 or 10 goal kickers, not realiant on just 1.