Religion The Bible: Literal, figurative, bulldust?

[Gethelred]

To clearly delineate conversation between threads, this thread is for specifically bible talk; if you're debating biblical historicity or lack of it, if you're talking interpretation, this is the thread for you.

Standard board rules apply. Go nuts.

 

[paulige]

Why do you think there may be a 'purpose'? Other than some claim that there is.

I suppose I consider it unknowable - as I cannot definitively state there is no purpose, it is logical that there might be a purpose.

As for what the purpose may be, for there being a purpose, I’m also not sure. Or perhaps I am being purposefully non-committal

I said purpose so many times, it’s lost all meaning - nice.

Maybe the purpose is to try and debate in good faith, and to be wary we don’t become as smug as this MF looks:

 

[paulige]

The purpose is found in evolution - survival and adaptation along with procreation.

What reasons do you have to think there's more to it?

I interpreted the initial mention of “purpose” a few comments back to be in a philosophical sense, whereas I think you’re coming from a scientific perspective (one I agree with; survival of the species, effectively).

 

[evolved2]

I interpreted the initial mention of “purpose” a few comments back to be in a philosophical sense, whereas I think you’re coming from a scientific perspective (one I agree with; survival of the species, effectively).

From a philosophical perspective, I find meaning from my connection to people - especially my family and close friends, but also from being around and visiting different cultures and learning from them. Being amongst nature and feeling a connection to it provides meaning too: a simple walk along a beach, feeling the wind, water and sun on my skin provides meaning and connection.

The beauty of life and necessity of death to form a place for new life brings meaning to me also.

I gain pleasure from visiting architectural wonders that take the form of churches and temples, and also partake in ceremonial aspects to appreciate the cultural value. It's not all negative.

I don't see how the supernatural or religious elements of organised religion can possibly add meaning to my life. Faith is a facade - a wilful denial of what we know to be real. People with faith are lying to themselves - and in turn, they lie to others. I don't believe it's possible to be a person of faith and honesty - we have to pick one or the other.

 

[Leeda]

Good books...are always good for passing on....we often learn the dynamics of santomanada

 

[paulige]

From a philosophical perspective, I find meaning from my connection to people - especially my family and close friends, but also from being around and visiting different cultures and learning from them. Being amongst nature and feeling a connection to it provides meaning too: a simple walk along a beach, feeling the wind, water and sun on my skin provides meaning and connection.

The beauty of life and necessity of death to form a place for new life brings meaning to me also.

I gain pleasure from visiting architectural wonders that take the form of churches and temples, and also partake in ceremonial aspects to appreciate the cultural value. It's not all negative.

I don't see how the supernatural or religious elements of organised religion can possibly add meaning to my life. Faith is a facade - a wilful denial of what we know to be real. People with faith are lying to themselves - and in turn, they lie to others. I don't believe it's possible to be a person of faith and honesty - we have to pick one or the other.

You don’t need to - it sounds like you’ve got everything you need from the philosophical perspective alone.

I think for some people they can - for me, viewing the religious and supernatural elements in a metaphorical light, they make far more sense than any literal interpretations, which typically lead to confusion.

You are right in that when we lie to ourselves, we lie to others - and vice versa!

 

[evolved2]

You don’t need to - it sounds like you’ve got everything you need from the philosophical perspective alone.

I think for some people they can - for me, viewing the religious and supernatural elements in a metaphorical light, they make far more sense than any literal interpretations, which typically lead to confusion.

You are right in that when we lie to ourselves, we lie to others - and vice versa!

What value do you take from the bible and from religion in general - is it the moral lessons and wisdom or have you found something beyond that?

Going back to the Einstein quote regarding religion and science, I disagree with Einstein on that point. While Einstein was a brilliant scientist, that doesn't make his philosophical musings inherently wise. I'd liken it to Richard Dawkins being a brilliant biologist and a very limited theologian.

Can we say there is no god? Yes and no - that depends on how you define god and whether we accept a falsifiable god hypothesis. Given there is no objective evidence for the existence of biblegod, those who take a scientific approach to supernatural claims have no choice but to accept the null hypothesis ie atheism. I'd go a step further and say that biblegod doesn't exist because an all-knowing, all powerful deity who is everywhere has to leave a footprint of evidence somewhere - and yet, we find none.

Theoretically, the atheist who ponders life, our place in it, philosophy, truth and wisdom - that type of person - should have much in common with Christians who supposedly are on their own search for truth and meaning. In practice, I find most Christians aren't so much in search of truth, rather they claim to have found it. Some go a step further and claim to know the truth, which to me is clear evidence of self-deception. Someone who has found the truth isn't concerned about it being prodded and poked and evaluated to the nth degree, yet Christians tend to run for cover or hide behind cliches such as 'god works in mysterious ways' or 'I have faith'.

I like the bible verse Mt 5:41 - "If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles". Stopping at 'I have faith' is the one mile while stepping behind the curtain to see what the bible truly is - that is the the extra mile. That's really why Christians haven't been able to keep up with non-theists on this thread. We know more about the bible than they do!

The search for truth is a journey, not a destination.

 

[Total Power]

What value do you take from the bible and from religion in general - is it the moral lessons and wisdom or have you found something beyond that?

Going back to the Einstein quote regarding religion and science, I disagree with Einstein on that point. While Einstein was a brilliant scientist, that doesn't make his philosophical musings inherently wise. I'd liken it to Richard Dawkins being a brilliant biologist and a very limited theologian.

Can we say there is no god? Yes and no - that depends on how you define god and whether we accept a falsifiable god hypothesis. Given there is no objective evidence for the existence of biblegod, those who take a scientific approach to supernatural claims have no choice but to accept the null hypothesis ie atheism. I'd go a step further and say that biblegod doesn't exist because an all-knowing, all powerful deity who is everywhere has to leave a footprint of evidence somewhere - and yet, we find none.

Theoretically, the atheist who ponders life, our place in it, philosophy, truth and wisdom - that type of person - should have much in common with Christians who supposedly are on their own search for truth and meaning. In practice, I find most Christians aren't so much in search of truth, rather they claim to have found it. Some go a step further and claim to know the truth, which to me is clear evidence of self-deception. Someone who has found the truth isn't concerned about it being prodded and poked and evaluated to the nth degree, yet Christians tend to run for cover or hide behind cliches such as 'god works in mysterious ways' or 'I have faith'.

I like the bible verse Mt 5:41 - "If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles". Stopping at 'I have faith' is the one mile while stepping behind the curtain to see what the bible truly is - that is the the extra mile. That's really why Christians haven't been able to keep up with non-theists on this thread. We know more about the bible than they do!

The search for truth is a journey, not a destination.

Best post i have read in a long time. We are all in this journey, but some people don't realise this cause they have arrived at their destination already (Christians/Muslims/Atheists alike). Be rigorous in your search, while we are all biased acknowledge your bias and keep it in mind. Be open to all possibilities and I think you will be on a good path.

 

[paulige]

What value do you take from the bible and from religion in general - is it the moral lessons and wisdom or have you found something beyond that?

Going back to the Einstein quote regarding religion and science, I disagree with Einstein on that point. While Einstein was a brilliant scientist, that doesn't make his philosophical musings inherently wise. I'd liken it to Richard Dawkins being a brilliant biologist and a very limited theologian.

Can we say there is no god? Yes and no - that depends on how you define god and whether we accept a falsifiable god hypothesis. Given there is no objective evidence for the existence of biblegod, those who take a scientific approach to supernatural claims have no choice but to accept the null hypothesis ie atheism. I'd go a step further and say that biblegod doesn't exist because an all-knowing, all powerful deity who is everywhere has to leave a footprint of evidence somewhere - and yet, we find none.

Theoretically, the atheist who ponders life, our place in it, philosophy, truth and wisdom - that type of person - should have much in common with Christians who supposedly are on their own search for truth and meaning. In practice, I find most Christians aren't so much in search of truth, rather they claim to have found it. Some go a step further and claim to know the truth, which to me is clear evidence of self-deception. Someone who has found the truth isn't concerned about it being prodded and poked and evaluated to the nth degree, yet Christians tend to run for cover or hide behind cliches such as 'god works in mysterious ways' or 'I have faith'.

I like the bible verse Mt 5:41 - "If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles". Stopping at 'I have faith' is the one mile while stepping behind the curtain to see what the bible truly is - that is the the extra mile. That's really why Christians haven't been able to keep up with non-theists on this thread. We know more about the bible than they do!

The search for truth is a journey, not a destination.

Immaculate!

 

[Boston tiger]

What value do you take from the bible and from religion in general - is it the moral lessons and wisdom or have you found something beyond that?

Going back to the Einstein quote regarding religion and science, I disagree with Einstein on that point. While Einstein was a brilliant scientist, that doesn't make his philosophical musings inherently wise. I'd liken it to Richard Dawkins being a brilliant biologist and a very limited theologian.

Can we say there is no god? Yes and no - that depends on how you define god and whether we accept a falsifiable god hypothesis. Given there is no objective evidence for the existence of biblegod, those who take a scientific approach to supernatural claims have no choice but to accept the null hypothesis ie atheism. I'd go a step further and say that biblegod doesn't exist because an all-knowing, all powerful deity who is everywhere has to leave a footprint of evidence somewhere - and yet, we find none.

Theoretically, the atheist who ponders life, our place in it, philosophy, truth and wisdom - that type of person - should have much in common with Christians who supposedly are on their own search for truth and meaning. In practice, I find most Christians aren't so much in search of truth, rather they claim to have found it. Some go a step further and claim to know the truth, which to me is clear evidence of self-deception. Someone who has found the truth isn't concerned about it being prodded and poked and evaluated to the nth degree, yet Christians tend to run for cover or hide behind cliches such as 'god works in mysterious ways' or 'I have faith'.

I like the bible verse Mt 5:41 - "If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles". Stopping at 'I have faith' is the one mile while stepping behind the curtain to see what the bible truly is - that is the the extra mile. That's really why Christians haven't been able to keep up with non-theists on this thread. We know more about the bible than they do!

The search for truth is a journey, not a destination.

You could be surrounded by footprints and not see them. Take a step back grasshopper.

 

[Total Power]

You could be surrounded by footprints and not see them. Take a step back grasshopper.

Another nothing post from a serial nothing poster.

What would those footprints be? how is evolution compatible with Original Sin?

Intelligent Design is a hopelessly stupid argument that most people have abandoned including many Christians. I will be waiting for your 'footprints' then.

 

[paulige]

What would those footprints be?

It’s a metaphor - can you draw any meaning from it?

 

[Total Power]

It’s a metaphor - can you draw any meaning from it?

He didn't mean it like that, check his previous posts. He thinks Intelligent design is the proof of creation, nature is created etc etc.

Secondly, can you explain what you mean by metaphor in this case? what would footprints of god be to you?

Thirdly he argues for HIS god, of course..the only real god. Which is where i kinda lose interest in talking to such people.

 

[paulige]

He didn't mean it like that, check his previous posts. He thinks Intelligent design is the proof of creation, nature is created etc etc.

Secondly, can you explain what you mean by metaphor in this case? what would footprints of god be to you?

Thirdly he argues for HIS god, of course..the only real god. Which is where i kinda lose interest in talking to such people.

The grasshopper could be standing in the very footprints of something greater than itself (man, if you like) and be none the wiser, until it looks at things from, seemingly, impossibly further back.

That’s what I got from it, anyway - I haven’t read anything else from him.

 

[Total Power]

The grasshopper could be standing in the very footprints of something greater than itself (man, if you like) and be none the wiser, until it looks at things from, seemingly, impossibly further back.

That’s what I got from it, anyway - I haven’t read anything else from him.

Sure, the planet is bigger than us, the galaxy is bigger than the solar system, the universe is greater than all. It's not really the footprints of God. If he is referring to the universe as God, we are all stardust, i have no issues with that. However you need to understand the poster above is a Catholic, he is referring to creationism and intelligent design. We have only been here for a 100,000 years and the planet existed for 4 billion years. We are literally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things for this planet, let alone the galaxy or the universe.

 

[paulige]

Sure, the planet is bigger than us, the galaxy is bigger than the solar system, the universe is greater than all. It's not really the footprints of God. If he is referring to the universe as God, we are all stardust, i have no issues with that. However you need to understand the poster above is a Catholic, he is referring to creationism and intelligent design. We have only been here for a 100,000 years and the planet existed for 4 billion years. We are literally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things for this planet, let alone the galaxy or the universe.

You’ll find no argument to any of that here. As I said, for mine, it’s just a metaphor - we make of it what we choose. Also, you can be as irrelevant as you want, don’t throw me in the same basket, though…

“All language is but a poor translation.” - Franz Kafka

 

[Total Power]

You’ll find no argument to any of that here. As I said, for mine, it’s just a metaphor - we make of it what we choose. Also, you can be as irrelevant as you want, don’t throw me in the same basket, though…

“All language is but a poor translation.” - Franz Kafka

Sure i think you are different than most posters in this thread, you do have balance in your arguments without favouring/taking a side. That's the way forward. I am not opposed to someone bigger than us or metaphors, i am against childish arguments of babysitting personal God which most religious adherents in this thread try to tell us.

 

[paulige]

Sure i think you are different than most posters in this thread, you do have balance in your arguments without favouring/taking a side. That's the way forward. I am not opposed to someone bigger than us or metaphors, i am against childish arguments of babysitting personal God which most religious adherents in this thread try to tell us.

I can’t speak for them, but I consider that they’re trying to describe something they simply don’t have the language to describe. They just use whatever words or metaphors are available to them. In which case, you can’t blame them - allowing any frustration will only disturb your own peace.

“Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world." -Schopenhauer

 

[Total Power]

I can’t speak for them, but I consider that they’re trying to describe something they simply don’t have the language to describe. They just use whatever words or metaphors are available to them. In which case, you can’t blame them - allowing any frustration will only disturb your own peace.

“Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world." -Schopenhauer

Sure you can say mankind have done this since the birth of civilisation, trying to explain the unknowable in their own way. But these metaphors they use are used to control people/lives/cultures. It then becomes personal. Consider the concept of sin, they try to indoctrinate a child saying they are going to hell if they don't accept they are sinners and seek refuge in Jesus.
That is child abuse and it's not longer a harmless thing.

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text.

- Albert Einstein

 

[paulige]

Sure you can say mankind have done this since the birth of civilisation, trying to explain the unknowable in their own way. But these metaphors they use are used to control people/lives/cultures. It then becomes personal. Consider the concept of sin, they try to indoctrinate a child saying they are going to hell if they don't accept they are sinners and seek refuge in Jesus.
That is child abuse and it's not longer a harmless thing.

Don’t allow it to.

"If someone succeeds in provoking you, realise that your mind is complicit in the provocation." - Epictetus


The Einstein quote has come up already in this thread - I don’t disagree with it.

 

[Total Power]

Don’t allow it to.

"If someone succeeds in provoking you, realise that your mind is complicit in the provocation." - Epictetus


The Einstein quote has come up already in this thread - I don’t disagree with it.

I don't get provoked by these childish responses however they have shaped the world that way though, where blasphemy rules prevailed (and still prevail in many countries). You cannot question their beliefs, yet god has given us intelligence to question things. I'm only motivated to be engaged with the issue when religious believers attempt to impose their unfounded superstitions on others (not talking about me here).

 

[evolved2]

Total Power Ken Hinkley turned water into wine today.

 

[Total Power]

Total Power Ken Hinkley turned water into wine today.

Zak Butters and JHF. 17 touches 5 clearances in the final quarter. Just a poor mans Scott in all aspects. Playing 1 quarter of footy might cut it in H&A, but teams will chop us up in the finals. Watch us shit the bed again.

 

[paulige]

I don't get provoked by these childish responses however they have shaped the world that way though, where blasphemy rules prevailed (and still prevail in many countries). You cannot question their beliefs, yet god has given us intelligence to question things. I'm only motivated to be engaged with the issue when religious believers attempt to impose their unfounded superstitions on others (not talking about me here).

Fair enough - I thought your use of “it then becomes personal” was referring to your self.

Though to be fair, on this page alone, you have referred to someone as a “serial nothing poster” with a “hopelessly stupid argument” - might just be my view, but I feel some level of provocation.

 

[Total Power]

Fair enough - I thought your use of “it then becomes personal” was referring to your self.

Though to be fair, on this page alone, you have referred to someone as a “serial nothing poster” with a “hopelessly stupid argument” - might just be my view, but I feel some level of provocation.

You should check his posting history. Doesn't contribute anything to a discussion and often gets personal. Not just that, if you try a constructive and theological discussion with this poster, he never replies, except a one liner, like above. I challenged him to a discussion about Trinity in the last page, he left by saying 'Trinity is pretty simple'. Nothing more than that. Similarly when i asked him questions about evolution he won't reply. Hence nothing poster is the one who makes loaded statements (typically a one liner) without backing it up.