The Case for Tasmania

[The_Wookie]

I dont think you realise the enormity of what you said. The Vic teams will fight to stay in the AFL. They dont care what might be best for a national competition.
Its called having your cake & eating it as well.

well not really. Its called having your cake, but then being told that you are no longer entitled to it by people who fought for years for the right to have no cake, but now that they have a piece would like the people who originally had it to kindly go away.

 

[Colonial]

well not really. Its called having your cake, but then being told that you are no longer entitled to it by people who fought for years for the right to have no cake, but now that they have a piece would like the people who originally had it to kindly go away.

If the VFL didnt want to expand and be national it didnt have to. Im guessing any clubs who no longer play in the AFL will play in the VFL, which is what allot of vic supporters want isnt it?

 

[The_Wookie]

If the VFL didnt want to expand and be national it didnt have to. Im guessing any clubs who no longer play in the AFL will play in the VFL, which is what allot of vic supporters want isnt it?

Thats not what the issue is. Its ok for the VFL to expand, its somewhat less so for new clubs and other leagues to demand that the AFL teams already in the league should go to make way for new ones.

Clubs who no longer play in the AFL will no longer be able to attract members, crowds will drop from the 20s and 30s...to less than 5k, clubs will not be able to attract sponsors. thousands of people will be lost to the AFL, as is documented to have happened with Fitzroy.

In order for a club to be removed from the AFL it would take a vote by the overwhelming majority of the clubs - not the Commission - the Clubs. Lets look at the maths on this -

• 10 Melbourne clubs - none will support the removal of a Victorian club unless theres absolutely no chance of recovery.
• Sydney is AFL controlled, and will vote as directed by the AFL
• Gold Coast is AFL controlled and will vote as directed by the AFL'
• GWS is AFL controlled and will vote as directed by the AFL
• Brisbane is unlikely to support the move given its history with fitzroy.

Thats 14 Victorian or AFL controlled clubs likely to not vote to remove a victorian club, you have more chance of getting the Port sub license removed than you do a North or Bulldogs or other club to be removed. No one wants a repeat of the Fitroy saga. The only way it happens is if the financial situation of a club is deemed untenable. No club is even close to this at the moment. Theres no creditors even expressing concern.

 

[madmug]

well not really. Its called having your cake, but then being told that you are no longer entitled to it by people who fought for years for the right to have no cake, but now that they have a piece would like the people who originally had it to kindly go away.

OMG. That is exactley the point. It pretends to be a national competition. That is until it comes to the blind selfishness of teams who were in the local VFL but then got a free lift to the national competition. The clubs who just cant cut it are clogging up the works. The AFL has become less of a national competition & more a means of life support & social welfare handouts to suburban clubs who cant handle where they are.
Just like the VFL was, the Vic AFL is mainly concerned with looking after poorly run melbourne suburban clubs who clearly should be back at the VFL state competition level.

 

[The_Wookie]

OMG. That is exactley the point. It pretends to be a national competition. That is until it comes to the blind selfishness of teams who were in the local VFL but then got a free lift to the national competition. The clubs who just cant cut it are clogging up the works. The AFL has become less of a national competition & more a means of life support & social welfare handouts to suburban clubs who cant handle where they are.
Just like the VFL was, the Vic AFL is mainly concerned with looking after poorly run melbourne suburban clubs who clearly should be back at the VFL state competition level.

You dont get a free lift if YOU ARE ALREADY THERE.

Time and time again we have shown that the AFL is a rebdaged VFL but no, people carry on like it sprang out of nowhere in 1990 and that the VFL clubs who had been there since at LEAST 1925 were undeserving of a place in the league they were already part of.

Talk about biting the hand that invited you.

Oh and its why Port Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney have all received massive amounts of funds during their existence. Because it propped up the Melbourne clubs. Rightyo.

 

[Colonial]

Oh and its why Port Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney have all received massive amounts of funds during their existence. Because it propped up the Melbourne clubs. Rightyo.

no they get the handouts because its due to them plus the other interstate sides plus a few victorian clubs that we get the massive tv deal, which in turn pays our elite athletes and keeps them in the game. No tv deal no big pay cheques to our players and they go looking for other sporting outlets as teens, soccer, rugby, nrl etc

 

[speedpeck23]

no they get the handouts because its due to them plus the other interstate sides plus a few victorian clubs that we get the massive tv deal, which in turn pays our elite athletes and keeps them in the game. No tv deal no big pay cheques to our players and they go looking for other sporting outlets as teens, soccer, rugby, nrl etc

Agree, all clubs are dependant on each other. It was never so obvious as the early eighties when clubs like Collingwood , Carlton and Richmond were suddenly in massive debt because they were paying players beyond each clubs capacity. The so called power clubs of the VFL were crumbling. Hence the AFL Commission was formed to save the clubs from themselves. The structure now allows the Commission to try and maximise the income of the clubs individually and collectively in the interest of developing the game.

 

[Gibbke]

Carlton wasn't, they were fine...they, Hawthorn and Essendon were the only teams trading in the black, and surprisingly, Melbourne were way up there somewhere too...Collingwood were in serious trouble, about the same time as Port Adelaide in the SANFL launched an all out save us campaign in Adelaide...

 

[speedpeck23]

Carlton wasn't, they were fine...they, Hawthorn and Essendon were the only teams trading in the black, and surprisingly, Melbourne were way up there somewhere too...Collingwood were in serious trouble, about the same time as Port Adelaide in the SANFL launched an all out save us campaign in Adelaide...

Think you will find Carlton was on the edge......they brought back big John to get them out of trouble.got the 87 flag...and they were still on the edge.....reality finally struck about 6 years ago as we all know.

 

[The_Wookie]

Agree, all clubs are dependant on each other. It was never so obvious as the early eighties when clubs like Collingwood , Carlton and Richmond were suddenly in massive debt because they were paying players beyond each clubs capacity. The so called power clubs of the VFL were crumbling. Hence the AFL Commission was formed to save the clubs from themselves. The structure now allows the Commission to try and maximise the income of the clubs individually and collectively in the interest of developing the game.

The 80s was a mad time for all football leagues

1983 - 6 VFL clubs were practically broke - Collingwood, Geelong, St Kilda, Sydney, Footscray and Fitzroy
1983 - The WAFL went broke and was bailed out by the WA Government (resulting in the formation of the WAFC)
1985 - VFL Commission appointed
1989 - 7 SANFL clubs reported major losses

 

[theRainbowGame]

I dont think you realise the enormity of what you said. The Vic teams will fight to stay in the AFL. They dont care what might be best for a national competition.
Its called having your cake & eating it as well.

Natural death???
Give teams equal amounts of support, and wait for one to pass away. Could be what they are currently doing?

 

[theRainbowGame]

If a Victorian based (interstate ) club folded then there would be 11 less game in Victoria each year (assuming it is replaced straight away...).

If it was a Tasmanian based team you could hypothesise that the while the crowds may be smaller on average the TV audiences may actually be larger!
A tassie team would play 11 matches in Tasmania, meaning that Victorians would be required to watch on TV.
A tassie team would also help the AFL build its tourism business.
The tradition of a tassie team would also bring in a new sense of ??intrigue?? to the game!!

 

[madmug]

You dont get a free lift if YOU ARE ALREADY THERE.

Time and time again we have shown that the AFL is a rebdaged VFL but no, people carry on like it sprang out of nowhere in 1990 and that the VFL clubs who had been there since at LEAST 1925 were undeserving of a place in the league they were already part of.

Talk about biting the hand that invited you.

Oh and its why Port Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney have all received massive amounts of funds during their existence. Because it propped up the Melbourne clubs. Rightyo.

Its only Victorians who like to think they just opened up the VFL & allowed lesser beings to enter in. Off course they choose not to remember the mess the VFL was in. They choose to forget the sales pitch of the new AFL being a new national competition. They choose to forget how much they have needed the newer clubs in order to get the massive media deals that wouldnt have been possible for the VFL, thus saving many Victorian clubs very existance.
All an inconvenient truth.

 

[The_Wookie]

Its only Victorians who like to think they just opened up the VFL & allowed lesser beings to enter in. Off course they choose not to remember the mess the VFL was in. They choose to forget the sales pitch of the new AFL being a new national competition. They choose to forget how much they have needed the newer clubs in order to get the massive media deals that wouldnt have been possible for the VFL, thus saving many Victorian clubs very existance.
All an inconvenient truth.

Read the AFL website for its own history and get yourself educated.

As to the non victorians "saving" the VFL - Sure when West Coast and Brisbane came in some clubs were in financial strife, but it cant have been that bad by 1990 or Port wouldnt have been able to get the license fee negotiated down to 1.5 million. 1987 was also the year that TV rights jumped from just over 10 million (2.7 million a year) to more than 30 million (6 million a year), and the league never looked back after that.

In 1989 the SANFL were damn near destitute and 7 clubs were broke. They didnt save the AFL - it took them years to pay their license fee on an installment plan - 4 million wasnt even the size of the annual tv rights by then. By the time Freo came in, the league was making 17 million a year just from TV.

Lets not try to overstate things too much shall we?

 

[Colonial]

Read the AFL website for its own history and get yourself educated.

As to the non victorians "saving" the VFL - Sure when West Coast and Brisbane came in some clubs were in financial strife, but it cant have been that bad by 1990 or Port wouldnt have been able to get the license fee negotiated down to 1.5 million. 1987 was also the year that TV rights jumped from just over 10 million (2.7 million a year) to more than 30 million (6 million a year), and the league never looked back after that.

In 1989 the SANFL were damn near destitute and 7 clubs were broke. They didnt save the AFL - it took them years to pay their license fee on an installment plan - 4 million wasnt even the size of the annual tv rights by then. By the time Freo came in, the league was making 17 million a year just from TV.

Lets not try to overstate things too much shall we?

I reiterate, no interstate clubs no big tv deal, they would spend it on other competitions that have moved national. Then all these great athletes who are playing our great game would go somewhere else because thats whats on tv and thats what would pay them the most $$$. Then I guess the VFL could go on surviving on sausage sandwhichs and choock raffles.

 

[The_Wookie]

I reiterate, no interstate clubs no big tv deal, they would spend it on other competitions that have moved national. Then all these great athletes who are playing our great game would go somewhere else because thats whats on tv and thats what would pay them the most $$$. Then I guess the VFL could go on surviving on sausage sandwhichs and choock raffles.

Heres what would have happened, the SANFL was almost broke in 1989, and would be gone now. The WAFL would be a shell of itself. The combined income of the WA and SA leagues in 1988 was 12 million. The VFL was on nearly 40 million. That didnt include the club incomes. The AFL had enough money by 1993 to bailout and buy back the Sydney and Brisbane licenses from private ownership.

You dont get it. Even without SA teams by 1990 the league was national. All these great athletes would be playing wherever the VFL chose to establish its clubs. One of the reasons cited by the WAFC for joining the VFL in 1987 was the fear that VFL expansion into WA was inevitable. Either Mohammed came to the Mountain or the Mountain was coming to Mohammed as it were.

 

[Colonial]

Heres what would have happened, the SANFL was almost broke in 1989, and would be gone now. The WAFL would be a shell of itself. The combined income of the WA and SA leagues in 1988 was 12 million. The VFL was on nearly 40 million. That didnt include the club incomes. The AFL had enough money by 1993 to bailout and buy back the Sydney and Brisbane licenses from private ownership.

You dont get it. Even without SA teams by 1990 the league was national. All these great athletes would be playing wherever the VFL chose to establish its clubs. One of the reasons cited by the WAFC for joining the VFL in 1987 was the fear that VFL expansion into WA was inevitable. Either Mohammed came to the Mountain or the Mountain was coming to Mohammed as it were.

Ummm I do get it, as I stated without national no $$$, no star players, by national I mean any club outside the Melbourne stronghold. You honestly dont think the media would spend a billion dollars on a vic only comp do you?? Wether the VFL could buy other state leagues or not is neither here nor there. The fact is they would not of been able to spend the dollars they now do to players and upgrade stadiums if they did not have the extra 8 interstate clubs.

 

[Krazy Kris]

So uh, whens the fat greek leaving?

 

[Slattery_20]

I reiterate, no interstate clubs no big tv deal, they would spend it on other competitions that have moved national. Then all these great athletes who are playing our great game would go somewhere else because thats whats on tv and thats what would pay them the most $$$. Then I guess the VFL could go on surviving on sausage sandwhichs and choock raffles.

The networks would've paid for whatever they thought would rate more.
Which would've been footy. Whether VFL, VFA, SANFL or WAFL.
People like footy. People don't really give a crap about what the comp's called.

 

[Colonial]

The networks would've paid for whatever they thought would rate more.
Which would've been footy. Whether VFL, VFA, SANFL or WAFL.
People like footy. People don't really give a crap about what the comp's called.

So the VFL with only victorian clubs would of gotten the same money?? Please tell me your glasses arent that rose coloured. The reason the AFL gets the biggest dollars in sport is because it has a presence in all areas of the country, well the most anyway.

 

[Slattery_20]

No. There was only 6 games a week, and the standard of play was nowhere near what it is today.
The reason the AFL gets the most money, is because it's the best competition.
National is part of that, but not the whole picture.


No-one was watching a nationalised basketball or baseball league or hockey league, over a one-state footy league.

And please stop putting words into people's mouths.

 

[Colonial]

No. There was only 6 games a week, and the standard of play was nowhere near what it is today.
The reason the AFL gets the most money, is because it's the best competition.
National is part of that, but not the whole picture.


No-one was watching a nationalised basketball or baseball league or hockey league, over a one-state footy league.

And please stop putting words into people's mouths.

Whose putting words into your mouth?? Im replying to your comment. True national is part of it (a major part), so is the fact its the best competition in the world, and our national game.

 

[Gibbke]

Ok...can you guys take a second to actually READ each other's posts, and realise that Wookie is talking about the formation of the AFL, GG is talking about the current arrangment...

You're both right. The VFL pretty much instigated the national comp, in the sort term saving some clubs and in the long term giving itself a better chance of survival as a comp, which was a mutually beneficial deal for everyone (at least at the top level of footy) whether you're cynical about the VFL's motives or not. The league now is worth over a billion dollars because of its national appeal, which necessitates the current number of interstaters...everyone who's in it is benefitting (Fitzroy and Tassie aren't in it!), despite some changeover pains along the way...

 

[madmug]

Ok...can you guys take a second to actually READ each other's posts, and realise that Wookie is talking about the formation of the AFL, GG is talking about the current arrangment...

You're both right. The VFL pretty much instigated the national comp, in the sort term saving some clubs and in the long term giving itself a better chance of survival as a comp, which was a mutually beneficial deal for everyone (at least at the top level of footy) whether you're cynical about the VFL's motives or not. The league now is worth over a billion dollars because of its national appeal, which necessitates the current number of interstaters...everyone who's in it is benefitting (Fitzroy and Tassie aren't in it!), despite some changeover pains along the way...

Who cares who wins the point. Just look at the title of the thread FFS.
The issue is how much of a national competition is it when it includes so many clubs that just represent melbourne suburbs & do almost nothing to improve the 'national' credentials of the competition.
Clearly the AFL has too much protected ex VFL deadwood that has to sell game or demand 'handouts' like social welfare payments.
I am convinced that Tasmania could do better than some of those suburban hangers on.
Let them go back to the VFL.

 

[theRainbowGame]

Who cares who wins the point. Just look at the title of the thread FFS.
The issue is how much of a national competition is it when it includes so many clubs that just represent melbourne suburbs & do almost nothing to improve the 'national' credentials of the competition.
Clearly the AFL has too much protected ex VFL deadwood that has to sell game or demand 'handouts' like social welfare payments.
I am convinced that Tasmania could do better than some of those suburban hangers on.
Let them go back to the VFL.

Next TV deal (if there is one), the AFL should investigate how much one less Vic team, and one Tassie team would affect the rights. Does anyone have links to the average TV audience for each team?