Analysis The Goldsack Conundrum

[sr36]

[***Mod edit: this thread was created to accommodate posts on The Sack from the 2015 pre-season thread. Is he best 22? Should he be in the leadership group? Is his defensive pressure overrated?***]

We'll see if that holds true. Jarryd Blair's charmed run with minimal impact on the offensive side of the ball in 2014 would indicate that this was previously not a focus of ours which is very frustrating.

We preached two way football in 2014, but so often the offence was neglected whilst the best teams are making an art form out of taking the game on with skill (Hawthorn), pace (Port) or both (Sydney).

Goldy has been named in the leadership team. Hopefully this means he will be playing in defence.

 

[DrDavoren]

Goldsack stats
2014 - 20 games - 10 goals - 11.2 disposals/game - 3.2 marks/game - 4.3 tackles/game
2013 - 13 games - 6 goals - 12.3 disposals/game - 3.2 marks/game - 3.4 tackles/game
Career - 124 games - 47 goals - 11.2 disposals/game - 3.3 marks/game - 3.3 tackles/game

For a player who is in the side for his "defensive pressure" I wouldn't see less than 1 tackle per quarter of a game as a terrific result. Also averaging about 0.3 goals per game across his career but if you look at the last two years he's increased that average to a whopping 0.5 goals per game! I could make many comparisons to other players at other clubs but without boring people silly with stats, I'm just wondering what exactly he is in the team for and even more importantly how he's been elevated into the leadership group! If Buckley is talking the talk re not playing "one dimensional" players surely Goldsack will be one of the first to feel his wrath with a demotion to the VFL… Or is he a protected lock in now that he's in the leadership group?

Very in depth critique , but Goldy brings much more than those stats portray.
His attack at the ball and man will always have him one of the first picked and these aren't shown on the stats.

The fact that the Hawks were circling for him last year alone should show what he offers a team little loan a team lacking for hard players as we are.

I think Goldsack may win a few over this year if allowed to cement a position and not have to play multiple roles.

 

[Anzacday]

I'm just wondering what exactly he is in the team for and even more importantly how he's been elevated into the leadership group! If Buckley is talking the talk re not playing "one dimensional" players surely Goldsack will be one of the first to feel his wrath with a demotion to the VFL… Or is he a protected lock in now that he's in the leadership group?

I would've thought the second bolded part answered the first part.
He's one of the few who can play forward, back & mid.
Think of the number of times, (last season as an example) where one of our backman was injured and he go shifted back there.
Goldy has been one of the players that has had his role changed out of necessity i.e, played as defensive forward as we didn't have anyone else.
I still have fond memories of his ability to completely shut Micky O out of a game and maybe he might go back to that?
That said, I always thought he could be tried on a wing, (again highlighting his flexibility).
Lastly, my understanding is the leadership group is nominated, (if not selected) by the players.

 

[mike123]

I would've thought the second bolded part answered the first part.
He's one of the few who can play forward, back & mid.
Think of the number of times, (last season as an example) where one of our backman was injured and he go shifted back there.
Goldy has been one of the players that has had his role changed out of necessity i.e, played as defensive forward as we didn't have anyone else.
I still have fond memories of his ability to completely shut Micky O out of a game and maybe he might go back to that?
That said, I always thought he could be tried on a wing, (again highlighting his flexibility).
Lastly, my understanding is the leadership group is nominated, (if not selected) by the players.

The thing is, it doesn't matter where Goldsack plays he's always purely defensive with pure limited offensive side which Buckley talked about getting rid of.

 

[Bard]

Perhaps they consider 'offence' as more than just kicking goals. Perhaps 'offence' includes applied aggression. Perhaps Goldsack is chosen as a leader because he's a leader of men, like Sir Nick Maxwell. Perhaps we don't yet have 22 two-way players.

Food for thought.

 

[Scodog10]

Perhaps they consider 'offence' as more than just kicking goals. Perhaps 'offence' includes applied aggression. Perhaps Goldsack is chosen as a leader because he's a leader of men, like Sir Nick Maxwell. Perhaps we don't yet have 22 two-way players.

Food for thought.

Or perhaps offence is winning the ball, using it to put others in a better position and being dangerous enough for your opponent to be on there heels so unable to peel off. None of which Goldsack does particularly well.

I wouldn't call Goldsack "aggressive" either. I've never seen him once impose himself on a game. Yeah he can be an aggressive tackler, but that's the only element to his game that isn't meh...

More food for thought maybe.

The only other thing I would say on Goldsack and his tackling is that I believe he ranks very highly in CD's tackles in space stat. Anyone can wrack up tackles in the contest if they aren't front running, but chase down tackles can provide value.

FWIW he isn't in my best 22 as a defender and isn't a lock as a forward until he shows he can average a goal a game which is the minimum standard for forwards in the best teams. Unfortunately the guy's a bottom 4-6 player in a good team and he's now in our leadership group says a bit about where we're at, IMO.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

Goldsack's another culprit though. Defensive pressure is great, but it's useless without scoreboard pressure which he unfortunately just can't provide consistently enough.

Macaffer in that role would be so much more valuable because he can provide a lead up option as a foil to the talls (think the old Tarrant 100m lead style), he can hit the scoreboard and you know he can do the business defensively. I think he's pigeon holed as a tagger now though unfortunately.

Your post was going okay until the above. Do you really think Macaffer could play a lead up role after coming off his second knee reconstruction? Tarrant was quick off the mark and would always get separation on his opponent. Macaffer has never been quick and after two knee recos, I tend to think he will be even slower. Also, his best goal tally for a season is 16 in 2010.

Goldsack has his flaws, however, when he played purely as a forward in 2012, he kicked 30 goals and was effective both defensively and offensively. The last two years he has played both forward and back and missed games in 2013 due to injury.

More than happy for Goldy to be in the leadership group, as he sets the standard in work ethic.

 

[Vicky Park]

If Buckley is talking the talk re not playing "one dimensional" players surely Goldsack will be one of the first to feel his wrath with a demotion to the VFL… Or is he a protected lock in now that he's in the leadership group?

IIRC both Keeffe and Young were dropped to the VFL in 2014, while in the leadership group. Admittedly not for long. But it is no absolute guarantee of senior selection every week.

 

[TradeDraft]

IIRC both Keeffe and Young were dropped to the VFL in 2014, while in the leadership group. Admittedly not for long. But it is no absolute guarantee of senior selection every week.

Keeffe was not even in the Best 22 at start of last year. Started in the VFL

 

[Scodog10]

Your post was going okay until the above. Do you really think Macaffer could play a lead up role after coming off his second knee reconstruction? Tarrant was quick off the mark and would always get separation on his opponent. Macaffer has never been quick and after two knee recos, I tend to think he will be even slower. Also, his best goal tally for a season is 16 in 2010.

Goldsack has his flaws, however, when he played purely as a forward in 2012, he kicked 30 goals and was effective both defensively and offensively. The last two years he has played both forward and back and missed games in 2013 due to injury.

More than happy for Goldy to be in the leadership group, as he sets the standard in work ethic.

Not immediately because I don't expect Macaffer to play much of any role until at least July and if I'm being brutally honest that knee injury has the potential to be the beginning of the end of his career. However that being said, IMO, that is the role he has the best chance of making it back in.

It's where he played his best footy in 2010 and he has one thing that Goldsack will never have which are forward smarts. Goldsack is a see ball get ball footballer who struggles to find the ball...

It's a frustrating conversation though because PK (that other mid sized forward option) is at least as poor defensively as Goldsack is offensively, but PK won't get a look in ahead of Goldsack by virtue of the fact that ones in the leadership group and the other isn't!

 

[TradeDraft]

Not immediately because I don't expect Macaffer to play much of any role until at least July and if I'm being brutally honest that knee injury has the potential to be the beginning of the end of his career. However that being said, IMO, that is the role he has the best chance of making it back in.

It's where he played his best footy in 2010 and he has one thing that Goldsack will never have which are forward smarts. Goldsack is a see ball get ball footballer who struggles to find the ball...

It's a frustrating conversation though because PK (that other mid sized forward option) is at least as poor defensively as Goldsack is offensively, but PK won't get a look in ahead of Goldsack by virtue of the fact that ones in the leadership group and the other isn't!

De Goey can play as a Medium Forward

 

[Ricky90]

It's a frustrating conversation though because PK (that other mid sized forward option) is at least as poor defensively as Goldsack is offensively, but PK won't get a look in ahead of Goldsack by virtue of the fact that ones in the leadership group and the other isn't!

I hear you, man. But don't rule out PK just yet. I'm holding out hope that they'll use Goldsack as needed (in game) this season. I'm with you that he's on the fringes of the team, which makes his appointment in the leadership group baffling. He's getting a gig in the team though, week in week out, we know this. But for him to be picked ahead of other guys who are better players positionally is an injustice. So if he's used in game as a utility first then PK might get the chance he deserves. Doubt it will happen though.

In any case, I think PK should be ahead of Moore at this stage. And a lot of people around these parts think Moore will play a fair sized chunk of next season. I don't see it.

 

[jackcass]

Perhaps they consider 'offence' as more than just kicking goals. Perhaps 'offence' includes applied aggression. Perhaps Goldsack is chosen as a leader because he's a leader of men, like Sir Nick Maxwell. Perhaps we don't yet have 22 two-way players.

Food for thought.

Yep, and perhaps the coaching staff and selectors know what each individual player contributes to the whole performance and select them based on that.

I think this year could be a huge one for developing players staking claims for senior spots ala Langdon in 2014, and that may well see a few players squeezed out of the senior team. Players like Young, Blair, Goldsack, and Armstrong need to take their chances or they'll end up playing VFL. I don't see that as a problem.

 

[Scodog10]

De Goey can play as a Medium Forward

He's 18 if he gets game time ahead of Goldsack, PK and a fit Macaffer we're bottom 4-6 in 2015. No doubt he'll be better than all of them (and perhaps by a margin) within 3 years, but let's allow him to develop at VFL level for a bit first.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Goldsack stats
2014 - 20 games - 10 goals - 11.2 disposals/game - 3.2 marks/game - 4.3 tackles/game
2013 - 13 games - 6 goals - 12.3 disposals/game - 3.2 marks/game - 3.4 tackles/game
Career - 124 games - 47 goals - 11.2 disposals/game - 3.3 marks/game - 3.3 tackles/game

For a player who is in the side for his "defensive pressure" I wouldn't see less than 1 tackle per quarter of a game as a terrific result. Also averaging about 0.3 goals per game across his career but if you look at the last two years he's increased that average to a whopping 0.5 goals per game! I could make many comparisons to other players at other clubs but without boring people silly with stats, I'm just wondering what exactly he is in the team for and even more importantly how he's been elevated into the leadership group! If Buckley is talking the talk re not playing "one dimensional" players surely Goldsack will be one of the first to feel his wrath with a demotion to the VFL… Or is he a protected lock in now that he's in the leadership group?

To be fair Goldsack has played back almost as much as forward over the last two seasons. So I'm sure he's been averaging more goals if you take out his games in the back half. You could also say that because he plays both ends of the ground that he is quite versatile.

 

[TradeDraft]

He's 18 if he gets game time ahead of Goldsack, PK and a fit Macaffer we're bottom 4-6 in 2015. No doubt he'll be better than all of them (and perhaps by a margin) within 3 years, but let's allow him to develop at VFL level for a bit first.

I would not put it past De Goey at Seaon end he could be better the PK and Caff would not be 100% fit next year

 

[Prestige Presti]

Goldsack stats
2014 - 20 games - 10 goals - 11.2 disposals/game - 3.2 marks/game - 4.3 tackles/game
2013 - 13 games - 6 goals - 12.3 disposals/game - 3.2 marks/game - 3.4 tackles/game
Career - 124 games - 47 goals - 11.2 disposals/game - 3.3 marks/game - 3.3 tackles/game

For a player who is in the side for his "defensive pressure" I wouldn't see less than 1 tackle per quarter of a game as a terrific result. Also averaging about 0.3 goals per game across his career but if you look at the last two years he's increased that average to a whopping 0.5 goals per game! I could make many comparisons to other players at other clubs but without boring people silly with stats, I'm just wondering what exactly he is in the team for and even more importantly how he's been elevated into the leadership group! If Buckley is talking the talk re not playing "one dimensional" players surely Goldsack will be one of the first to feel his wrath with a demotion to the VFL… Or is he a protected lock in now that he's in the leadership group?

If you want to know give this article a read.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ds-secret-weapon/story-fni5f6hd-1226900104191

and a few lines...

"Goldsack has forced 28 turnovers in six rounds through his own pressure, with the Pies scoring seven goals 11 behinds from those turnovers."

Buckley - “Against North Melbourne (in Round 5) I was keen to acknowledge him in the coaches votes but we had other guys with greater influence, but we don’t underestimate his influence at all.

“(He can) kick his one or two (goals) and set up a couple each week, but to be putting real pressure on the opposition and be the start of our team defensive at the front line is something Tyson really prides himself on.”

Champion Data’s new pressure points index ranks players on tackles, chases, near-tackles and corralling — basically the degree of physical pressure applied to the opposition.

Of medium and tall forwards, Goldsack is ranked first ahead of Docker Mayne, Geelong’s Jordan Murdoch, Melbourne’s Chris Dawes, GWS tall Adam Tomlinson and Richmond’s Ben Griffiths."


So basically not only do his actions prevent a successful counter attack, but he's so effective at what he does, we more often then not score off his hard work and pressure (and if we could kick straight, we could have capitalized more), unfortunately half way through the year due to injuries he had to return to the backline (where he completely smashed Josh Kennedy) , but when he's up forward he does some serious damage.

And this is only from the first six rounds (between round 5 and his injury in round 12, he stepped up his game further and recorded a massive 44 tackles in that time) , he scored 10 goals in half a year as a forward (24 goals his record as a first year forward) and provided many more scoring shots, and apparently he's the best for his height in the game at doing that, i would certainly not call that one dimensional.

He's one of the toughest, flexible, most well respected blokes at the club and that's why he's in the leadership group.

 

[PTpie]

If you want to know give this article a read.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ds-secret-weapon/story-fni5f6hd-1226900104191

and a few lines...

"Goldsack has forced 28 turnovers in six rounds through his own pressure, with the Pies scoring seven goals 11 behinds from those turnovers."

Buckley - “Against North Melbourne (in Round 5) I was keen to acknowledge him in the coaches votes but we had other guys with greater influence, but we don’t underestimate his influence at all.

“(He can) kick his one or two (goals) and set up a couple each week, but to be putting real pressure on the opposition and be the start of our team defensive at the front line is something Tyson really prides himself on.”

Champion Data’s new pressure points index ranks players on tackles, chases, near-tackles and corralling — basically the degree of physical pressure applied to the opposition.

Of medium and tall forwards, Goldsack is ranked first ahead of Docker Mayne, Geelong’s Jordan Murdoch, Melbourne’s Chris Dawes, GWS tall Adam Tomlinson and Richmond’s Ben Griffiths."


So basically not only does his actions prevent a successful counter attack, but he's so effective at what he does, we more often then not we score off his hard work and pressure (and if we could kick straight, we could have capitalized more), unfortunately half way through the year due to injuries he had to return to the backline (where he completely smashed Josh Kennedy) , but when he's up forward he does some serious damage.

And this is only from the first six rounds, he scored 10 goals in half a year as a forward (24 goals his record as a first year forward) and provided many more scoring shots, and apparently he's the best for his height in the game at doing that, i would certainly not call that one dimensional.

He's one of the toughest, flexible, most well respected blokes at the club and that's why he's in the leadership group.

You will never get them to understand. They have formed an opinion and will stick to it no matter what evidence is provided.

From the stats sheet we are provided by champion data and the AFL, the numbers aren't flattering. Internally and to many in footy including other clubs and coaches, players like Goldsack are extremely valuable. The things they do on and off the field are far beyond what we "see" from our side of the fence.

I'd be more than happy tho have Tyson in any team I played or coached.

 

[sr36]

You will never get them to understand. They have formed an opinion and will stick to it no matter what evidence is provided.

From the stats sheet we are provided by champion data and the AFL, the numbers aren't flattering. Internally and to many in footy including other clubs and coaches, players like Goldsack are extremely valuable. The things they do on and off the field are far beyond what we "see" from our side of the fence.

I'd be more than happy tho have Tyson in any team I played or coached.

There was a game last year that solidified my attitude towards our defensive forward structures. It was a come from behind win in the first half of the year. I can't remember who we were playing, but in the last quarter we had Swan, Elliott and Fasolo up forward and they were swarming. Their ability to read the play, get to the fall of the ball and be dangerous applied a damn sight more pressure on the defenders and locked the ball in more effectively than the valiant chasing, harrassing and corralling of Blair of Goldsack. Frankly those two spend a heap of time chasing, harrassing and corralling, because they don't read the play very well and don't have the instincts or abilities to put genuine pressure on defenders.

 

[Apex36]

If you want to know give this article a read.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ds-secret-weapon/story-fni5f6hd-1226900104191

and a few lines...

"Goldsack has forced 28 turnovers in six rounds through his own pressure, with the Pies scoring seven goals 11 behinds from those turnovers."

Buckley - “Against North Melbourne (in Round 5) I was keen to acknowledge him in the coaches votes but we had other guys with greater influence, but we don’t underestimate his influence at all.

“(He can) kick his one or two (goals) and set up a couple each week, but to be putting real pressure on the opposition and be the start of our team defensive at the front line is something Tyson really prides himself on.”

Champion Data’s new pressure points index ranks players on tackles, chases, near-tackles and corralling — basically the degree of physical pressure applied to the opposition.

Of medium and tall forwards, Goldsack is ranked first ahead of Docker Mayne, Geelong’s Jordan Murdoch, Melbourne’s Chris Dawes, GWS tall Adam Tomlinson and Richmond’s Ben Griffiths."


So basically not only do his actions prevent a successful counter attack, but he's so effective at what he does, we more often then not score off his hard work and pressure (and if we could kick straight, we could have capitalized more), unfortunately half way through the year due to injuries he had to return to the backline (where he completely smashed Josh Kennedy) , but when he's up forward he does some serious damage.

And this is only from the first six rounds (between round 5 and his injury in round 12, he stepped up his game further and recorded a massive 44 tackles in that time) , he scored 10 goals in half a year as a forward (24 goals his record as a first year forward) and provided many more scoring shots, and apparently he's the best for his height in the game at doing that, i would certainly not call that one dimensional.

He's one of the toughest, flexible, most well respected blokes at the club and that's why he's in the leadership group.

Excellent post. Goldy's flexibility in particular is something that should certainly be highlighted. The pure fact that he can play forward, and as both a small or tall defender in a pinch is an incredible asset to have on the team.

Yes, he is more defensive than offensive, but he is capable of playing on just about any part of the ground to a good standard, regardless of his preparation. It amuses me that one of our most flexible utilities can be labelled as 'one dimensional'.

I'm glad you mentioned Kennedy, because that game was a perfect example of how important Goldy is.

Bucks: "Hey Tyson, I know you've been training and playing forward all year, but I need you to go towel up Kennedy for us."

Goldy: "No wucking furries Bucks!" (Proceeds to destroy the Weagles number 1 forward)

 

[DaVe86]

He will play wherever he is asked to, but by his own admission on sen earlier this week he prefers it as a forward.

We were 8-3 last season with him up forward so it was working.

You would hope players like Karnezis will put pressure in his spot, but i think Bucks will always find a spot for goldy because he does a job wherever asked.

I dont mind a forward line with him in it, as long as he is the only defensive player. Last year we had Blair and he offering nothing offensively, whilst white, witts and grundy were also offering little on the scoreboard.

Im happy with goldy there, as long as the other 5 guys are scoring threats.

 

[Collingwood42]

He will play wherever he is asked to, but by his own admission on sen earlier this week he prefers it as a forward.

We were 8-3 last season with him up forward so it was working.

You would hope players like Karnezis will put pressure in his spot, but i think Bucks will always find a spot for goldy because he does a job wherever asked.

I dont mind a forward line with him in it, as long as he is the only defensive player. Last year we had Blair and he offering nothing offensively, whilst white, witts and grundy were also offering little on the scoreboard.

Im happy with goldy there, as long as the other 5 guys are scoring threats.

Yeah I think you're pretty spot on there.

Goldsacks greatest attribute is that tackling pressure, as well as perceived pressure on opposition defences, that can make them rush decisions, and turn the ball over.

There's more to just possessions and goals, and his stats indicate that most of the time when he forces a turnover, we will score.

As Dave86 said above, we can't have too many defensive forwards playing, but I think 1 is good, and takes that 7th forward position.

It comes down to a choice between Blair and Goldsack for me, with Goldsack clearly winning in defensive pressure, plus the addition of his height, and the added bow of being able to play down back if required.

Broomy Cloke Elliott
Fasolo Moore/Grundy White
Goldsack

 

[BEEG]

Most good teams have 1 or 2 blokes like Goldsack because they pressure tackle create opportunities people will bag the Blair's and Sacks because they just look at stats

Problem is we are not a good team atm if we were these 2 would be praised

Sack down back and Blair up Forward

 

[Apex36]

Most good teams have 1 or 2 blokes like Goldsack because they pressure tackle create opportunities people will bag the Blair's and Sacks because they just look at stats

Problem is we are not a good team atm if we were these 2 would be praised

Sack down back and Blair up Forward

Would prefer Sack forward, Blair in the twos, and Kennedy playing as a crumber in his place.

 

[rustyg70]

Would prefer Sack forward, Blair in the twos, and Kennedy playing as a crumber in his place.

My exact thoughts also.
Blair has been bog standard for the last couple of years.