The HAL Hunter thread: Updated 10/2 - Must pay some costs. Now likely to sue, lodgement likely May.

[ODNBlue]

i realise that of course, however it can mean you are entitled to no significant fault discount.

I think the players believe they were only given wada compliant substances because thats what they signed a consent for

That is only true if they had no possible way of knowing something was off. This is simply not the case in this situation. You could perhaps claim it if your coach was putting stuff in your water bottle or if something was administered to you while you were asleep. It does not cover off sportspeople who were injected hundreds of times and had opportunity after opportunity to ask questions of those who should know, ie., Doctors, ASADA. The question they should have asked was: "Can I have a detailed outline of every substance you plan to inject into me?" Then they could have taken that list to their doctor or the internet or ASADA, as per their PERSONAL responsibility. Instead, they failed in that responsibility, were active in the sidelining of their club doctor, lied to ASADA and one particularly bright spark who was having heart problems lied to his heart specialist. Their unwillingness to ask the appropriate questions does not absolve them of guilt. The fact that Hal is asking the right question now doesn't absolve them of guilt. They're guilty of drug violations and deserve their 12 months holiday.

It doesn't matter how many times you keep asking the same questions mxett... the facts remain the same.

 

[ODNBlue]

Players may not have deliberately tried to cheat, but they certainly didn't deliberately try to not cheat either...

 

[Gavstar]

#standbyhalnothird

 

[branedotorg]

according to the story the court was satisfied that the club had handed all records over to Hal

i think the judge criticised the records quality but accepted that essendon had handed everything else to the AFL. he's still chasing the records from the AFL that the court has told them to hand over.

this is extremely fishy

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

Scumbaggery of the lowest order, but not entirely unexpected. AFL stopped being a "sport" sometime before Ross Oakley's tenure as CEO and has ever since been an entertainment business.

Business rules apply - you got the deeper pockets - lawyer them out of existence.

Clearly it has been established that Hal doesn't have enough information to hurt them, thus not worthy of a Robinson like payout. All of the motherhood statements about concerns for players - looking after them in the long term, yada, yada, are sadly just window dressing for the media to print.

If Hal wants to start a crowd funding option - I for one would be happy to contribute.

Just like respect for women and dustys 5k suspended fine. Lip service from the afl.

 

[jenny61_99]

So has his case been dismissed if both parties are seeking court costs?

 

[Billyc]

So has his case been dismissed if both parties are seeking court costs?

If what I understand if correct he does not currently have a case. He is seeking preliminary discovery of documents to find out what he was given to consider whether he does have a case.

I understand the AFL and essendon are seeking their costs of complying with discovery.

 

[T2B_]

Players may not have deliberately tried to cheat, but they certainly didn't deliberately try to not cheat either...

That's right. I get the sense that they were going along with the Hird logic (delusion) of believing they were pushing the rules and they would all be hunky dory and look revolutionary, bla bla bla.

None of them would admit to it of course and they will cry innocent 'til the cows come home, but I'm glad CAS didn't go easy on them.

 

[BF Tiger]

but if Hal was a willing part of the program, and CAS have determined he was therefore a willing cheat, why didnt he know what he was receiving? That doesnt add up

He was a rookie listed player who didn't sign consent forms.

 

[Cylon7]

He was a rookie listed player who didn't sign consent forms.

Yes, and why haven't the media dissected this and asked the right questions? Is the Herald Sun even aware of the story?

 

[compact72]

If what I understand if correct he does not currently have a case. He is seeking preliminary discovery of documents to find out what he was given to consider whether he does have a case.

I understand the AFL and essendon are seeking their costs of complying with discovery.

A bit sad how they never gave it to him without going to court, and because they chose that way, they want him to pay the costs. What flogs

 

[King Elvis]

Some of the gear he was meant to be injected with can apparently have some nasty side effects. I guess he might want to know what he has to watch for.

What was the polymer they use to bind the compounds?

Something used on racehorses and the production of coated paper; not tested or approved for use on humans?

 

[Boxhead_31]

but if Hal was a willing part of the program, and CAS have determined he was therefore a willing cheat, why didnt he know what he was receiving? That doesnt add up

From reading the Age article, on his consent form Thymosin wasn't listed and as such he wasn't charged with its use

 

[blackshadow]

The reason they can't tell him is that there were more powerful drugs than TB4 injected into the players. The AFL and Essendon are aware of this and do not want to have this made public. It would destroy the EFC.

Giddy up!

 

[Crankyhawk]

would love that to happen. However, I dare say he'd just keep lying

This is where my torture option is relevant.

 

[threesixpio]

but if Hal was a willing part of the program, and CAS have determined he was therefore a willing cheat, why didnt he know what he was receiving? That doesnt add up

Hal wasn't charged as you know. What has sunk the players re arguing being "duped" were the consents

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

What was the polymer they use to bind the compounds?

Something used on racehorses and the production of coated paper; not tested or approved for use on humans?

And today we have 5 people seriously ill from a licenced, supervised medical trial in France but dank just did pretty much as he pleased with unproven compounds.

Why is the afl not helping Hal as per their policy?

 

[Satan]

And today we have 5 people seriously ill from a licenced, supervised medical trial in France but dank just did pretty much as he pleased with unproven compounds.

Why is the afl not helping Hal as per their policy?

Is tb4 the best of the worst stuff given?

 

[blackshadow]

I'd love to see see a journo corner Paul Marsh and ask what the AFLPA is doing to assist Hal and if they will assist him in having the AFL and Essendon withdraw their demands for costs to obtain the requested documents.

 

[LanceRomance]

If what I understand if correct he does not currently have a case. He is seeking preliminary discovery of documents to find out what he was given to consider whether he does have a case.

I understand the AFL and essendon are seeking their costs of complying with discovery.

he should crowd source the funding. reckon there will be plenty of people who want to give the afl and Essendon the finger.

 

[stfan]

if Hal was part of the program, yet to this day doesnt know what he was injected with, why did CAS accuse the players of knowing what they were using?

May I suggest you have a read of Section 159 of the CAS Judgement. That will give you a fair idea.

Then have also perhaps take a peak too at the AFL Anti Doping Code.

Did all the EFC players follow AFL Anti Doping Code (Clearly note the first point in bold below shows that they did not. Why not? Oh and that is MUST by the way MUST...not "recommended", not if they feel like it, but MUST ):

7.4 Before the commencement of the AFL Competition in each year each Player must advise his Club Medical Officer in writing of all substances and medications he is taking or using or has taken or used since the last Match in which the Player participated in the previous year. The Player mustpromptly advise his Club Medical Officer in writing of all substances and medications he subsequently takes or uses during the AFL Competition in that year. Each Club Medical Officer must maintain and keep a written record in respect of each Player of all substances and medications so advised to him. Such records will be the property of the Club.

11. ANTI DOPING RULE VIOLATIONS The following constitute Anti Doping Rule Violations, provided however, that each of the Anti Doping Rule Violations set out in Clauses 11.1, 11.2, 11.6 and 11.8 shall be deemed not to be Anti Doping Rule Violations by a Person if the Person has previously obtained a Therapeutic Use Exemption from an AFL or Club Medical Officer or a Recognised Medical Authority in accordance with this Code.

An Anti Doping Rule Violation occurs even if the Player does not know the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is prohibited under this Code. The onus is on the Player to check all substances and methods.
11.2 Use or Attempted Use by a Player of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method.9 (a) It is each Player’s personal duty to ensure that no Prohibited Substance enters his body. Accordingly, it is not necessary that intent, fault, negligence or knowing Use on the Player’s part be demonstrated in order to establish an Anti Doping Rule Violation for Use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method. (b) The success or failure of the Use or Attempted Use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is not material. It is sufficient that the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method was Usedor Attempted to be Used for an Anti Doping Rule Violation to be committed.

12.2 Players, Clubs, Officers and Officials must notify the AFL General Manager - Football Operations of all facts and circumstances where the Player, Club, Officer or Official believes there is or may be an Anti Doping Rule Violation or other breach of this Code

12.7 Each Player, Club, Officer and Official must upon the request of the AFL General Manager - Football Operation or the AFL Medical Officer:
(a) fully co-operate with any investigation;
(b) fully and truthfully answer any question asked for the purpose of such investigation

The EFC players clear did not adhere to the code and where in breech of it as I have highlighted above. Many believe that they breeched other arts of it to (ie as per the CASA Judgement). However as players were injected and as the code above was not followed we know without a doubt that every player at the EFC who was injected was also a willing participant in a club wide breech of the code.

That the EFC demonstrably allowed it players to be in breech of the clauses above of a supplements program that it was conducting is astounding if one believes that the EFC was not cheating.

Perhaps you should reflect of why the EFC and all its players at the time were in breech of the code. If you can explain a legitmate reason for this breech I would love to here it.


PS: Right at the start of the Code in a highlighted box so no player, or reader, can miss it is the statement that ignorance is no defense for not adhering to the code.

 

[ZabsBlues]

Good idea - perhaps crowd funding for Hal as well? That would stick it right up em

. I struggle with coin, but to me this would be worthy. I would definitely put some coin in.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I find the AFLPA performance has been woeful.
Quite happy that they look out for player welfare of the guilty players but what about the other hundreds of footballers they also represent who abided by the rules. The defence of the 34 belittles the honest effort of the rest.
Why are they deriding WADA and talking negatively about a group who actually are looking after player welfare, they should be happy with the result ( sad that the event happened in the first place) .
This result sends the correct message to the industry as a whole.
In lieu of protecting Jobes Brownlow why are they not advocating for Mitchell and Cotchin to get there's.
I hope they AFLPA react just as strongly for Hal Hunter as they did for the guilty players.
They should be outraged that that the AFL and Essendon have requested to pursue costs against a victim of the doping program.
Some have questioned the quality of Hal Hunter and his motives. Tough luck that does not matter, put up the medical records detailing what the injections were or pay the cost to a young man who was injected with unknown substances , therefore not knowing what might be the possible outcomes.
Yes , I said medical records but you say a doctor can only write them, how when he was kept out of the loop.
Hird stated that he reprorted to Hamilton, then there is no need at all for him to be involved with the day to day decision making of Robinson and Reid. The messages speak volumes of Hirds involvement. His, not my area of responsibility defence is farcical.

 

[blackshadow]

I find the AFLPA performance has been woeful.
Quite happy that they look out for player welfare of the guilty players but what about the other hundreds of footballers they also represent who abided by the rules. The defence of the 34 belittles the honest effort of the rest.
Why are they deriding WADA and talking negatively about a group who actually are looking after player welfare, they should be happy with the result ( sad that the event happened in the first place) .
This result sends the correct message to the industry as a whole.
In lieu of protecting Jobes Brownlow why are they not advocating for Mitchell and Cotchin to get there's.
I hope they AFLPA react just as strongly for Hal Hunter as they did for the guilty players.
They should be outraged that that the AFL and Essendon have requested to pursue costs against a victim of the doping program.
Some have questioned the quality of Hal Hunter and his motives. Tough luck that does not matter, put up the medical records detailing what the injections were or pay the cost to a young man who was injected with unknown substances , therefore not knowing what might be the possible outcomes.
Yes , I said medical records but you say a doctor can only write them, how when he was kept out of the loop.
Hird stated that he reprorted to Hamilton, then there is no need at all for him to be involved with the day to day decision making of Robinson and Reid. The messages speak volumes of Hirds involvement. His, not my area of responsibility defence is farcical.

I hope the AFLPA cop some serious media scrutiny over this.

 

[Slartibartfast]

The media seem to be sitting on there hands. I don't get it. They are there for the kicking but they all are is just looking on.
Don't know if the rest of the story is so big this has not warranted chasing.
I am sure there must be lots of players frowning at Marsh's comments.
Would like to think otherwise but maybe they have been reminded where there funding comes from!
If the AFL heavied Mcdevitt, the AFLPA would be a soft target.