The Harley baggers??????

[Geelong_Sicko]

Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

I backed martyk up a few days ago - he's entitled to his opinion as I said, but reading subsequent posts have me scratching my head as to why he dislikes el capitano so much. He may be deliberately winding folk up, or he may well be a peanut, a muppet, or whatever.

Harls did well today. Solid. Good game, skipper!

 

[Baby Duck]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Sitting at the game today I was actually wondering about what sort of response martyk will have to Harley's very solid game today. I thought he was terrific, really stood up when we needed it and took some fantastic marks.

 

[JUBJUB]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

but isn't this the player that only looks good because he has Scarlett by his side ?
A very good game by Harley

P.S Harley 100% effiency rate with disposal,Hunt 63% [couldn't hit a target all day]

 

[sarah.13]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

but isn't this the player that only looks good because he has Scarlett by his side ?
A very good game by Harley

P.S Harley 100% effiency rate with disposal,Hunt 63% [couldn't hit a target all day]

Not too much to whinge about this week so dare say won't be hearing much from Martyk.
Unless he wants to praise Hunts impeccable disposal and decision making!

 

[The Casey Cat]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

I backed martyk up a few days ago - he's entitled to his opinion as I said, but reading subsequent posts have me scratching my head as to why he dislikes el capitano so much. He may be deliberately winding folk up, or he may well be a peanut, a muppet, or whatever.

Harls did well today. Solid. Good game, skipper!

Great game from the captain today.

 

[darren forssman]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

thought his game was average but not deserving of a marty barrage. took a couple strong marks, but when the ball hit the ground he really struggles to pick it up cleanly like he used to.

if motlop got better quicker delivery it could of well been a different tune.

 

[Vegas.]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

thought his game was average but not deserving of a marty barrage. took a couple strong marks, but when the ball hit the ground he really struggles to pick it up cleanly like he used to.

if motlop got better quicker delivery it could of well been a different tune.

Yeh, agreed. There was a few 'old man Harley' moments, but without his mate Scarlett there, he was still a force in the air.

 

[The Casey Cat]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

thought his game was average but not deserving of a marty barrage. took a couple strong marks, but when the ball hit the ground he really struggles to pick it up cleanly like he used to.

if motlop got better quicker delivery it could of well been a different tune.

Probably right but Motlop has dominated more celebrated defenders than Tom Harley before. He is an absolute pain in the ass to play and I'd take his output today any time.

You're right about some fumbles but I reckon I saw Milburn fumble just as much as Tom did so no one's perfect.

 

[FoxC]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Not too much to whinge about this week so dare say won't be hearing much from Martyk.
Unless he wants to praise Hunts impeccable disposal and decision making!

He's been redcarded so I dare say you're right.

 

[Flex]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

but isn't this the player that only looks good because he has Scarlett by his side ?
A very good game by Harley

P.S Harley 100% effiency rate with disposal,Hunt 63% [couldn't hit a target all day]

Supercoach scores (derived from Champion data) for Sundays game:

Harley - 42 (typically a not so good scorer / normally lowest of the team)
Hunt - 91 (typically a great scorer / for amount of touches)

Not to play favourites, but I think you'll find Harley tends to go the easy option with his disposal (very short or sideways), while Hunt will go straight down the line to hit a lead. Hunt made some blunders but also took a couple of great contested grabs and should have gotten a goal. 3 weeks out of the action takes its toll, most players take a game or 2 to get back into the swing.

Great win... best performance since Round 2!!

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Supercoach scores (derived from Champion data) for Sundays game:

Harley - 42 (typically a not so good scorer / normally lowest of the team)
Hunt - 91 (typically a great scorer / for amount of touches)

Not to play favourites, but I think you'll find Harley tends to go the easy option with his disposal (very short or sideways), while Hunt will go straight down the line to hit a lead. Hunt made some blunders but also took a couple of great contested grabs and should have gotten a goal. 3 weeks out of the action takes its toll, most players take a game or 2 to get back into the swing.

Great win... best performance since Round 2!!

I actually rate Josh Hunt pretty highly - he gets unfairly blackguarded for the 'duck the head' incident. I re-watched our anzac day match against Freo and Hunt was an absolute rock down back for us that night.

Harls may go the easy option, but I pump my fist in the air whenever the opposition bombs it into its forward fifty, only to have Tommy Harley take a massive grab and repel the attack once more. I could be wrong, but I keep hearing he's number 1 for marks from an opposition kick - I'm not surprised!

Viva el capitano!

 

[Cohzee]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

I actually rate Josh Hunt pretty highly - he gets unfairly blackguarded for the 'duck the head' incident. I re-watched our anzac day match against Freo and Hunt was an absolute rock down back for us that night.

Harls may go the easy option, but I pump my fist in the air whenever the opposition bombs it into its forward fifty, only to have Tommy Harley take a massive grab and repel the attack once more. I could be wrong, but I keep hearing he's number 1 for marks from an opposition kick - I'm not surprised!

Viva el capitano!

Couldn't agree more. I love seeing him take those contested marks.

I wish Hunt had kicked for goal like he kicks out from goal. We were willing him to pick a spectator and try and kick it to them. I think that was the highest I have ever seen Hunt kick a ball.

 

[gwAllan]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Couldn't agree more. I love seeing him take those contested marks.

I wish Hunt had kicked for goal like he kicks out from goal. We were willing him to pick a spectator and try and kick it to them. I think that was the highest I have ever seen Hunt kick a ball.

Kick had a fair wobble to it. I don't reckon he hit it right.

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Supercoach scores (derived from Champion data) for Sundays game:

Harley - 42 (typically a not so good scorer / normally lowest of the team)
Hunt - 91 (typically a great scorer / for amount of touches)

Not to play favourites, but I think you'll find Harley tends to go the easy option with his disposal (very short or sideways), while Hunt will go straight down the line to hit a lead. Hunt made some blunders but also took a couple of great contested grabs and should have gotten a goal. 3 weeks out of the action takes its toll, most players take a game or 2 to get back into the swing.

Great win... best performance since Round 2!!

Firstly, Supercoach scores are an extremely poor way to rate a player's contribution to a team. Joel Bowden as a KPP defender was a Supercoach legend for a number of years, which says a lot for the validity of those ratings.

Secondly, Harley's short kicks may be perceived as an "easy option" but in reality I think they are important to our game plan. We run the ball out of the backline ridiculously well, and it is all built on sharing the ball. We share the ball and try and either get it into the hands of the blokes who can carry and run (Wojak, Scarlo, Enright, midfielders helping out in the backline) OR get it into the hands of the blokes who can use the ball well by foot (Hunt, Scarlo, Mackie - although not so much this year, midfielders helping out in the backline). Harley does not fall into either of these categories (his main contribution is in the air or as more of a pure defender) so it makes no sense, and is contrary to our game plan, for him to be bombing the ball out of defence. So he uses the ball short on most occasions.

I am sure that he would love to try a 50m pass every now and then, but as always he chooses to do the team thing and give it to a bloke better qualified to do this than himself.

A selfless player and leader is Tom - which probably is a big reason why he scores so poorly in flawed fantasy rating systems.

 

[sarah.13]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

^^^^

Totally agree, Tactically he plays on the lesser forwards (not always) so he can be 3rd man up against the better forwards being the best spoiler and pack mark in the team. Spoils are not a stat as such but are as important to a team ethic as anything else.
As you stated above,the little handballs and chip kicks are to allow the runners and more constructive kicks to create the play. He also clears a path for these sort of players. These things don't create stats but are of immence importance to the game plan. It's about time that some people realize his contribution to the team.

 

[Cattery]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Not into Supercoach or Champion Data myself, so a question, going by those stats posted are they saying statistically Hunt played twice as good a game as Harley on Sunday?

If that's the case what's the point of bothering with them.

 

[Flex]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

I am sure that he would love to try a 50m pass every now and then, but as always he chooses to do the team thing and give it to a bloke better qualified to do this than himself.

To be honest, I don't think Harley can actually kick 50m. Seriously. He would have the least penetrating kick in our side. Always goes very high when going long, which I hate to say makes life terribly hard for leading targets. This is possibly why he goes the easier option and let someone like a Hunt do the kicking.

Defenders / Midfielders kicking low, direct and hard to forwards result in goals... simple as that.

Additionally, Supercoach is derived from Champion data... basically the data all coaches etc use. It is possibly the most accurate way of determining a player effectiveness. Dream Team scores are garbage as they do not punish players enough for errors... Supercoach awards players well for effectiveness and punishes harshly for errors / clangers.
Spoils are taken into account. Harley just doesn't score well.... there are other players who play his role who do. Brian Lake is one I recall.

Joel Bowden is very effective with disposal, hence his high scoring. What happens after he hits a target is I guess where it all goes wrong.

 

[Flex]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Not into Supercoach or Champion Data myself, so a question, going by those stats posted are they saying statistically Hunt played twice as good a game as Harley on Sunday?

If that's the case what's the point of bothering with them.

Twice as good? I guess thats a question of your own perspective.

Twice as effective as a player on the day is more like reality.

 

[Cattery]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Twice as good? I guess thats a question of your own perspective.

Twice as effective as a player on the day is more like reality.

Fair enough, but then how does that tally with your statement above ....... "It is possibly the most accurate way of determining a player effectiveness".... If Hunt was twice as effective as Harley on Sunday then I was watching a different game.

 

[Flex]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Fair enough, but then how does that tally with your statement above ....... "It is possibly the most accurate way of determining a player effectiveness".... If Hunt was twice as effective as Harley on Sunday then I was watching a different game.

Well thats your opinion... thats OK.. now for the facts:

Hunt had 19 touches, Harley 12. This of course helps Hunt to score higher. The reason Hunt still scored more than double Harley is:
Harley had 0 tackles, Hunt had 4
Harley gave away 2 free kicks, 0 for.
Hunt gave away 1 free kick, 1 for.
Hunt had an inside 50, Harley 0.
+ Hunts kicks were probably longer / score better.
Hunt started slow and messed up a couple early from memory, but got better. Usually a good scorer.

This may make it a bit clearer for those who find it a little hard to get your head around.

 

[sarah.13]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Well thats your opinion... thats OK.. now for the facts:

Hunt had 19 touches, Harley 12. This of course helps Hunt to score higher. The reason Hunt still scored more than double Harley is:
Harley had 0 tackles, Hunt had 4
Harley gave away 2 free kicks, 0 for.
Hunt gave away 1 free kick, 1 for.
Hunt had an inside 50, Harley 0.
+ Hunts kicks were probably longer / score better.
Hunt started slow and messed up a couple early from memory, but got better. Usually a good scorer.

This may make it a bit clearer for those who find it a little hard to get your head around.

Apples and Oranges, both play different roles and their effectiveness cannot be compared by stats alone.
Taylor had only 9 poss,Westoff had 1 kick. Is that effective? If you use your argument the answer is NO! When in reality we know the answer is YES!

 

[Flex]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Apples and Oranges, both play different roles and their effectiveness cannot be compared by stats alone.
Taylor had only 9 poss,Westoff had 1 kick. Is that effective? If you use your argument the answer is NO! When in reality we know the answer is YES!

Don't think I'm putting Harley down here mate... just giving you the facts.

Your point is valid, so would the point that Westhoff got such a limited opportunity due to Ports midfield having such an off day.. that Taylor's job of keeping out of the game was essentially fairly easy.
In other words you are also comparing apples with oranges, aren't you?

For the record, Taylor scored 75 from only 9 disposals. No frees against, 3 tackles and quality disposal... this again doesn't do much at all for Harley's case does it? Taylor / Harley are easily compared as in the same team with similar roles. I didn't think it was any secret that Harley's disposal is.. well.. pretty dam average... guess I was wrong.

 

[Cattery]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

Well thats your opinion... thats OK.. now for the facts:

Hunt had 19 touches, Harley 12. This of course helps Hunt to score higher. The reason Hunt still scored more than double Harley is:
Harley had 0 tackles, Hunt had 4
Harley gave away 2 free kicks, 0 for.
Hunt gave away 1 free kick, 1 for.
Hunt had an inside 50, Harley 0.
+ Hunts kicks were probably longer / score better.
Hunt started slow and messed up a couple early from memory, but got better. Usually a good scorer.

This may make it a bit clearer for those who find it a little hard to get your head around.

Mate you can keep quoting "facts" till you're blue in the face, I'll just do what I've been doing since starting to follow the footy many, many years ago, and that's watch the game and make my own determination.

If having one inside fifty, conceding one less free or laying a few more tackles [ no mention if they were even effective or not ] is largely the reason one player gets a 100% higher efficiency rating then another then I wouldn't waste my time reading them, let alone quoting them to support my argument.

Think I've got my head around that.

I didn't think it was any secret that Harley's disposal is.. well.. pretty dam average... guess I was wrong.

Well if we're talking about Sundays game, which I assume we are, according to the stats [ which you seem to place a lot of faith in ] Harley rated 100% efficiency with his disposals ..... so yeah, I guess you are wrong.

 

[Generalissimo]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

With Scarlett and Egan out, against Port Sniperlaide's tall forward line, Harley had to play extremely well. And he did. I don't think he was beaten once in the air, his disposal was spot on and he kept the rest of the defence working as a cohesive unit. Not bad for a bloke who, apparently, depends on Matty Scarlett to look good. What an absolute crock of shit that opinion is.

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Tom Harley lays some shots across the bow of the SS Martyk...

To be honest, I don't think Harley can actually kick 50m. Seriously. He would have the least penetrating kick in our side. Always goes very high when going long, which I hate to say makes life terribly hard for leading targets. This is possibly why he goes the easier option and let someone like a Hunt do the kicking.

Defenders / Midfielders kicking low, direct and hard to forwards result in goals... simple as that.

Additionally, Supercoach is derived from Champion data... basically the data all coaches etc use. It is possibly the most accurate way of determining a player effectiveness. Dream Team scores are garbage as they do not punish players enough for errors... Supercoach awards players well for effectiveness and punishes harshly for errors / clangers.
Spoils are taken into account. Harley just doesn't score well.... there are other players who play his role who do. Brian Lake is one I recall.

Joel Bowden is very effective with disposal, hence his high scoring. What happens after he hits a target is I guess where it all goes wrong.

Your first statement re: Harley's ability to kick 50m, illustrates exactly my point about Harley being selfless. As I said previously, I am sure that Tom would love to have a crack at the 50m glory pass, but chooses to give it to a bloke more qualified to do this than himself. A big part of being successful is identifying one's limitations and working within them.

And your point re: Supercoach, well I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. The coaches may use these stats to some degree, but they can't rely on them too much. Because if they did rely on them, and Harley was such a poor scorer from these stats (and, thus on your argument an exceptionally ineffective player), then on what rationale does he get a game every week?

By giving Tom a game every week, and even more to the point by making him captain, Bomba is essentially saying that Supercoach/Champion Data scores don't mean jack. It seems to me that he is using his own eyes and make judgements on what he sees a player do, rather than relying on a statistically based rating system that favours certain types of players over others. I like to judge players on this basis as well......