The Jesse White Question

[BruceFromBalnarring]

........or you might say advice to Horse thread.

It is clear that White is next to useless deep in the forward line. It is also clear that he makes only a reasonable second ruck.

Why is it so difficult to see the bleeding obvious? The guy is a Centre Half Forward. Play him there. He doesn't have the tricks to beat a decent Full Back one on one. He does have the athleticism to beat a Centre Half Back. And he has a bloody long kick.

Leave him at Centre Half Forward and work the rest out around that. If he's no good there, then he's no good. But I reckon he'd be unreal if just left to develop in that role.

 

[disgruntled goat]

........or you might say advice to Horse thread.

It is clear that White is next to useless deep in the forward line. It is also clear that he makes only a reasonable second ruck.

Why is it so difficult to see the bleeding obvious? The guy is a Centre Half Forward. Play him there. He doesn't have the tricks to beat a decent Full Back one on one. He does have the athleticism to beat a Centre Half Back. And he has a bloody long kick.

Leave him at Centre Half Forward and work the rest out around that. If he's no good there, then he's no good. But I reckon he'd be unreal if just left to develop in that role.

"Next to useless" is particularly harsh but I agree he's too mobile and strong to be buried deep in the forward line. He draws defenders, let him play at CHF. And I definitely agree he should be allowed to cement himself there, not be used as a back-up ruck.

 

[Swanee]

........or you might say advice to Horse thread.

It is clear that White is next to useless deep in the forward line. It is also clear that he makes only a reasonable second ruck.

Why is it so difficult to see the bleeding obvious? The guy is a Centre Half Forward. Play him there. He doesn't have the tricks to beat a decent Full Back one on one. He does have the athleticism to beat a Centre Half Back. And he has a bloody long kick.

Leave him at Centre Half Forward and work the rest out around that. If he's no good there, then he's no good. But I reckon he'd be unreal if just left to develop in that role.

Totally agree .

 

[swansfan51]

His workrate around the ground is nowhere good enough to be a centre half forward. He is in his 5th season and his career high is 14 disposals. Please feel free to compare that to any centre half forward that has ever played the game, including Jack Watts

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

His workrate around the ground is nowhere good enough to be a centre half forward. He is in his 5th season and his career high is 14 disposals. Please feel free to compare that to any centre half forward that has ever played the game, including Jack Watts

I don't think it's a question of his workrate, I think it's a question of his positioning. He simply doesn't have the footy nous to play deep in the forward line and be effective. You can't compare his stats to CHF's unless you actually play him at CHF. Very few FF's collect big disposal numbers and really, aside from tap outs, not that many ruckmen do either.

Even if it's to warm the seat for Reid in a couple of years, and/or to extend Goodes' career by a couple of years (I hate the idea of playing Goodes in that role) the bloke has shown that he is fit, he is fast, he is agile, and he can take a strong mark on a lead.

 

[CAS79]

Some want to keep White in the team because he is still developing

now others say he is there to keep the seat warm for Reid.

The difference between White and Reid is not that great that White should be keeping his seat warm. Whatever position White needs to go back to how he played that first qtr and a half he played against the bombers. When he plays like that he belongs and can shake the forward line up.

What is very noticeable is that White drifts out of the game this season after his first stint in the ruck. White has power but is the ruck stint effecting his aerobic capacity to return to effect in the game.

He has had moments as second ruck before but right now he is getting done like a dinner while playing there and does not return to fight it on the forward line. That position is hurting him and therefore hurting us.

He needs to return to a fixed position, though i can see him swinging up back this week in the absence of LRT and our need to match Carlton for height.

My only concern about leaving him at CHF is his aerobic capacity, can he see the game out playing fully in that spot or should he rotate with Reid and spend time both deep and up the ground. Possibly using one to break out of a pack there in together and leaving one, potentially confusing their direct opponent as to who's doing what.

Whatever it is he needs to find the mojo.

 

[liz]

He has had moments as second ruck before but right now he is getting done like a dinner while playing there and does not return to fight it on the forward line. That position is hurting him and therefore hurting us.

Agree completely. White's only value as a ruckman is as a safety net - ie to prevent LRT or Ted having to play in the ruck if we get injuries to our real ruckmen during a game.

The good, mobile second rucks are good because of what they offer around the ground. Whether it is fitness or footy nous, White gives us nothing around the ground when he plays in the ruck. He also gives us next to nothing at ruck contests. He might give us something as a forward (or potentially even a defender) if he is allowed to stay in that role.

Given that we have at least two pretty decent ruckmen languishing in our reserves, I am very surprised with the tack Longmire has taken so far this year.

In terms of FF vs CHF, White looks far more like a FF to me than a CHF. He has explosive power (albeit he doesn't really know how to use it properly - yet) rather than endurance, can crash packs when he forgets (or doesn't bother) to lead, and is quite clever off the ground at times.

 

[Membling]

Just curious has he hit the magical 50 games mark yet? I'm a fan of White's but can see hime being traded next year if he doesn't start to click shortly

 

[AG]

In terms of FF vs CHF, White looks far more like a FF to me than a CHF. He has explosive power (albeit he doesn't really know how to use it properly - yet) rather than endurance, can crash packs when he forgets (or doesn't bother) to lead, and is quite clever off the ground at times.

Agree.

Positioning/reading the play and clean marking are his biggest weaknesses imo and they are absolutely crucial for playing CHF. CHF straightens up the play and that's where Goodes is underrated in his forward role because he is excellent at being a hit up forward. White would create more problems if he went missing at CHF rather than FF. Reid appears to be the more natural CHF, because he is a great contested mark and has no problems leading to the right positions.

Last week the whole team was woeful so it was hard for White to get going but in the two games prior he had his moments at FF and that's all he has to do to keep his spot. Get his 2 goals each week and provide a target around the goal square. Also replicating a lot of his efforts from the EF against Carlton last year would be handy. It would be good if he had a bit of Mumford's aggression at the ball.

 

[Syd]

In terms of FF vs CHF, White looks far more like a FF to me than a CHF. He has explosive power (albeit he doesn't really know how to use it properly - yet) rather than endurance, can crash packs when he forgets (or doesn't bother) to lead, and is quite clever off the ground at times.

This ^^

Leave Reid to settle into CHF, float Pyke\Mumford forward as 3rd talls when resting, throw Goodes and O'Keefe in as cameos and let McGlynn and Moore have a field day at the bottom of the packs.

 

[magic.merkin]

Just curious has he hit the magical 50 games mark yet? I'm a fan of White's but can see hime being traded next year if he doesn't start to click shortly

Nup 44.

I'm sick of defending him on here. It's not totally him, it's his positioning by the coaches. FF for mine is where he can only make it as a forward. Doubtful down back will work out for him.

He avg's 1.5 goals in 2011, with 75% game time, how much of that is spent forward?

Remember he kicked 3 against WCE, as well as his best kick, marks HB's stats for the year. Then he played in the wet (not a tall mans comfort zone, see Reid's stats as well). If it was a dry game he may well have kept that confidence up and turned the corner... or not. who know's...

Bring in Pyke, rest him forward. Jesse at FF, Reid CHF & Goodes wherever needed.

But for gawd's sakes play him forward and leave him there unless emergency calls. Send him to the2's if need be to get some leading forward confidence. If he can't make a fist of it by seasons end then have a good hard look at his future (yes he is signed until End of 2012)

 

[The King!]

i think whites going ok, just wish he had bradshaw along side him, that would help white and reid out as well.

if white were to go to the ressies id like to see Johnson come in and see if the kid can play, Pyke doing a bit of a chop out and playing forward would be a waste of space, prefer seaby to pyke.

 

[SM]

Mike "Waste of space" Pyke has been kicking bags in the Reserves, more than Seaby has been doing. Do a bit of research before slamming a player who has shown more improvement over his career than any other player in the AFL.

 

[BruceFromBalnarring]

No question Pyke is a much better option than Seaby. He's better now, and with heaps of upside.

 

[The King!]

Mike "Waste of space" Pyke has been kicking bags in the Reserves, more than Seaby has been doing. Do a bit of research before slamming a player who has shown more improvement over his career than any other player in the AFL.

bags, he kicked 4 goals yeah, the rest were in practice games so what? White kicked like 22 goals in 4 games in the ressies in 2009, has that translated to the same in the afl? no.


the reserves are that far away from senior level its not funny. Seaby has shown a lot more in AFL footy than pyke has, yeah he has shown a lot of improvement, thats because he couldnt play in the first place.

Ill be happily proven wrong, but so far when he plays in the seniors its just cringe worthy. I hope he comes in kicks 10 and makes me look a fool.

Yes i havent seen the reserves which makes it bloody hard, so hopefully he has developed a lot, but it would need to be a lot as he was more of a liability than a help when he played. He gets cut a lot of slack with some fans because he is learning the game and it seems to cloud their views.

 

[barry fu]

Nup 44.

I'm sick of defending him on here. It's not totally him, it's his positioning by the coaches. FF for mine is where he can only make it as a forward. Doubtful down back will work out for him.

He avg's 1.5 goals in 2011, with 75% game time, how much of that is spent forward?

Remember he kicked 3 against WCE, as well as his best kick, marks HB's stats for the year. Then he played in the wet (not a tall mans comfort zone, see Reid's stats as well). If it was a dry game he may well have kept that confidence up and turned the corner... or not. who know's...

Bring in Pyke, rest him forward. Jesse at FF, Reid CHF & Goodes wherever needed.

But for gawd's sakes play him forward and leave him there unless emergency calls. Send him to the2's if need be to get some leading forward confidence. If he can't make a fist of it by seasons end then have a good hard look at his future (yes he is signed until End of 2012)

Agreed.
He is a FF fullstop. Not a ruck, nor a Ryder.
Leave him in the box for better or for worse and lets find out, not fv<k about.

 

[J_Moore]

Yes i havent seen the reserves which makes it bloody hard, so hopefully he has developed a lot, but it would need to be a lot as he was more of a liability than a help when he played.

This might have been true in '09, but he was totally serviceable for most of last year, and pretty handy in the back end of the season. Not the greatest player the game's ever seen or anything, but he did a decent enough job for the role.

 

[magic.merkin]

Pyke doing a bit of a chop out and playing forward would be a waste of space, prefer seaby to pyke.

So you haven't watched any ressies games, have you read the reports? Pyke has been doing great all over the ground for a big guy. And is reading the ball quite well. Overall it seems he has shown more than Seaby in every facet of their roles.

He aint a walk up starter week in week out, but I feel he has deserved a call up.

If he is so cringe worthy, then I love to cringe. Elim final last year, what should have been 2 goal assists as well as inside 50's...
[YOUTUBE]NY1MNQ3EX5Y[/YOUTUBE]

 

[The King!]

i was thinking about this thread- thats sad, yes i did go off like a toss in outer having a beer, so i apologise for that.

I have read the reserves reports but not seen the games so yes does make it hard.

When pyke started he was rubbish but yes he did improve last year and was a good second ruck, my concern is that he was a second ruck and that role doesnt exist now. If he comes in he needs to offer us more around the ground, now you all say he has done that in the reserves, but do a few practice games in our ressies and one or two roster games mean you are ready to do that on the big stage?

yes he has had his moments last year, but i think because of where he came from as supporters theres more excitement and hype for anything he does compared to players who have been playing footy for longer.


I also think White sometimes gets a raw deal as well, his chop out ruck work has been ok and his forward play is developing. Since he came back v the blues as a forward he has kicked about 43 or 44 goals get his 1.5 goals a game basically its not too bad surely?

He was going well this year til the cats game and yes he was poor but the other 3 games were good, should he be chucked aside now? i think he deserves another go.

 

[liz]

i was thinking about this thread- thats sad, yes i did go off like a toss in outer having a beer, so i apologise for that.

I have read the reserves reports but not seen the games so yes does make it hard.

When pyke started he was rubbish but yes he did improve last year and was a good second ruck, my concern is that he was a second ruck and that role doesnt exist now. If he comes in he needs to offer us more around the ground, now you all say he has done that in the reserves, but do a few practice games in our ressies and one or two roster games mean you are ready to do that on the big stage?

yes he has had his moments last year, but i think because of where he came from as supporters theres more excitement and hype for anything he does compared to players who have been playing footy for longer.


I also think White sometimes gets a raw deal as well, his chop out ruck work has been ok and his forward play is developing. Since he came back v the blues as a forward he has kicked about 43 or 44 goals get his 1.5 goals a game basically its not too bad surely?

He was going well this year til the cats game and yes he was poor but the other 3 games were good, should he be chucked aside now? i think he deserves another go.

Of course Pyke was ordinary to start with. Most players are when they first take up a new sport. But I really think his performances now can be - and are - judged against absolute standards, not just "OK for a Canadian". If someone watching the last two home reserves games had been told that one of our rucks had been playing the game for more than a decade and the other was a rugby import, I really don't think anyone could have picked which was which.

Jesse's ruckwork is mediocre and he gives us nothing around the ground as a mobile ruckman. We have a facet of the game where we could have a strength relative to all but a handful of clubs, but using Jesse as the back-up seems to be accepting mediocrity in this department.

Yes, he is developing as a forward and one day he might get to be a good one. So why not allow him to develop properly in that role (whether in seniors or reserves) rather than mix him around between two roles he is not yet particularly good at?

 

[The King!]

Of course Pyke was ordinary to start with. Most players are when they first take up a new sport. But I really think his performances now can be - and are - judged against absolute standards, not just "OK for a Canadian". If someone watching the last two home reserves games had been told that one of our rucks had been playing the game for more than a decade and the other was a rugby import, I really don't think anyone could have picked which was which.

Jesse's ruckwork is mediocre and he gives us nothing around the ground as a mobile ruckman. We have a facet of the game where we could have a strength relative to all but a handful of clubs, but using Jesse as the back-up seems to be accepting mediocrity in this department.

Yes, he is developing as a forward and one day he might get to be a good one. So why not allow him to develop properly in that role (whether in seniors or reserves) rather than mix him around between two roles he is not yet particularly good at?

yes true re white, but with a limited bench can we have a forward line with white reid and say pyke in it at times? will that work?


I hope pykes ruck work is as good as reserves watchers say, but he isnt coming in to play first ruck or even as a pure 2nd ruck, he will need to offer something else, my concern with Pyke is more in what he will give to the side at senior level when mumford is in the ruck, which he will be at least 60, if not 70% of the time.

 

[SM]

bags, he kicked 4 goals yeah, the rest were in practice games so what? White kicked like 22 goals in 4 games in the ressies in 2009, has that translated to the same in the afl? no.

So you go from saying Pyke hasn't shown enough to he has shown enough but it doesn't matter. Right.

the reserves are that far away from senior level its not funny. Seaby has shown a lot more in AFL footy than pyke has, yeah he has shown a lot of improvement, thats because he couldnt play in the first place.

You kidding, Spudby has barely shown anything at AFL level, and Pyke showed far more last year than Spudby did.

Ill be happily proven wrong, but so far when he plays in the seniors its just cringe worthy. I hope he comes in kicks 10 and makes me look a fool.

Don't worry, you already look like a fool.

Yes i havent seen the reserves which makes it bloody hard, so hopefully he has developed a lot, but it would need to be a lot as he was more of a liability than a help when he played. He gets cut a lot of slack with some fans because he is learning the game and it seems to cloud their views.

Just that first sentence was enough. If you haven't seen much of the Ressies don't comment about a player's form who's been playing in the Ressies.

 

[The King!]

Spudly? Wowie you should get a job on fox sports. Think seamy has still out performed Pyle over the journey, and I don't think it's unreasonable to question reserves form when the standard is rubbish and it's only been going 2 to 3 weeks. When did I go from saying pyke showed enough to saying he had but it didn't matter? I said white kicked heaps of goals in the reserves got promoted and it didnt translate to senior form. Just saying if pyke is bagging goals in the reserves doesnt mean he will in the seniors.


Didn't know I wasn't allowed an opinion

 

[SM]

Spudly? Wowie you should get a job on fox sports. Think seamy has still out performed Pyle over the journey, and I don't think it's unreasonable to question reserves form when the standard is rubbish and it's only been going 2 to 3 weeks. When did I go from saying pyke showed enough to saying he had but it didn't matter? I said white kicked heaps of goals in the reserves got promoted and it didnt translate to senior form. Just saying if pyke is bagging goals in the reserves doesnt mean he will in the seniors.

*Spudby *Seaby *Pyke. Nice attempt though. You could probably provide me with a reference at Fox since you already seem to work there.

You said Pyke hasn't showed anything demanding call up, and I said he had and you said his form was irrelevant.

Didn't know I wasn't allowed an opinion

Difference between an informed, interesting, debate-provoking opinion and drivel and yours certainly wasn't the former. It was more remeniscent of a drunken, slurring footy fan hurling abuse at the water boy for not getting the water out quick enough.

 

[BIGBEZ]

Spudly? Wowie you should get a job on fox sports. Think seamy has still out performed Pyle over the journey, and I don't think it's unreasonable to question reserves form when the standard is rubbish and it's only been going 2 to 3 weeks. When did I go from saying pyke showed enough to saying he had but it didn't matter? I said white kicked heaps of goals in the reserves got promoted and it didnt translate to senior form. Just saying if pyke is bagging goals in the reserves doesnt mean he will in the seniors.


Didn't know I wasn't allowed an opinion

Im guilty of calling Seaby a spud but Im just being silly, he's not a spud but I just really want Pyke to do well.. Reading into Horses comments he seems to have Seaby ahead of Pyke, i.e its always Seaby and Pyke, not Pyke and Seaby, maybe Im reading way into much into it...