Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

[TheMightyEagles]

Maybe not as extreme as the suggestion, but a bit of confidence can certainly help. If youre too introverted in professional services, then there's doubts about your ability to bring in clients and generate revenue.

Long story and I wouldn't recommend it as a matter of course, but I cold-emailed a partner and that became the catalyst for my first role. That partner even brought it up with me years later and said how impressive my confident approach was to him. Grad intake can involve a bit of alchemy and, within reason, doing something to be memorable and stand out from the pack can be worthwhile. But I would still err on the side of caution as law firms are generally conservative places by nature.

 

[checkraiseulite]

it's certainly an interesting article.

would seem the deakin lecturers have a taste for the controversial.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Long story and I wouldn't recommend it as a matter of course, but I cold-emailed a partner and that became the catalyst for my first role. That partner even brought it up with me years later and said how impressive my confident approach was to him. Grad intake can involve a bit of alchemy and, within reason, doing something to be memorable and stand out from the pack can be worthwhile. But I would still err on the side of caution as law firms are generally conservative places by nature.

I'm exactly the same. Cold emailed about 10 firms in the field I wanted to work in which was a specialist accounting discipline. Asked for work experience. Only got 2 bites, one an email response and the other a meeting with a partner to have a chat about that career path. When vac season rolled around 12 months later I got acceptances at both companies, and eventually a job at my preferred firm. Even though I ended up hating the place and left after 18 months, it was a great first proper job on the resume.

 

[TheMightyEagles]

sadly i've seen this type of thing work countless times, while talented but more introverted candidates aren't offered positions.

Minter Ellison used to hold drinks during their grad recruitment process for applicants to smooze with the partners. At the end of the night, the number of business cards that each applicant collected then determined whether he or she could progress to the next stage. I wasn't a fan...the environment was too artificial to really test social skills and, in any event, those skills develop at different rates for most people (especially at your early to mid 20s) and can be taught.

Research shows that most lawyers are ISTJ on the Myer-Briggs test. INTJ also occurs with 5 times greater frequency in lawyers than it does in the general population, which is unsurprising as INTJ are described as conceptual, analytical, ambitious, curious, and driven and they are the only one of the 16 types for whom an elevated IQ has been statistically correlated. FWIW my experience is introverts do better in law over the long run (which is not to say that extroverts won't or cannot succeed), unlike in banking for example. They tend to be more resilient at sitting in front of a screen alone for many hours a day doing mundane cognitive tasks. Introverts also naturally tend to build a small number of close relationships. Over the course of a transaction or case, it can lean to them building strong relationships with their client contact(s) and providing repeat instructions for the firm.

EDIT: Speaking of weird grad recruitment tests: http://goo.gl/IZNias.

 

[Donners]

For anyone looking for a job, there should be a number of positions opening up in Vic in the next month or so as people start the Bar Readers' Course.

I know a number of solicitors who are quitting their jobs, but, of more relevance to graduates, a number of Supreme Court and County Court associates are also going.

 

[checkraiseulite]

have a dad who is a partner at big firm x and used to brief the judge when they were at the bar.

otherwise be very good and/or very lucky.

 

[tigertigertiger]

So here is a question. If you start working somewhere, do three shifts, they take all your details and aren't able to tell you how much you're getting paid, or aren't able to tell you how much you're getting paid on the next shift, is this an opportunity to sue?

 

[Impunity!]

So here is a question. If you start working somewhere, do three shifts, they take all your details and aren't able to tell you how much you're getting paid, or aren't able to tell you how much you're getting paid on the next shift, is this an opportunity to sue?

I will tell you for $5,000.

 

[tigertigertiger]

I will tell you for $5,000.

Amusing individual aren't you

 

[Shoei]

So here is a question. If you start working somewhere, do three shifts, they take all your details and aren't able to tell you how much you're getting paid, or aren't able to tell you how much you're getting paid on the next shift, is this an opportunity to sue?

Why would you work without knowing how much you're getting paid?

What industry and state? you're probably covered by an award agreement.

 

[Impunity!]

Why would you work without knowing how much you're getting paid?

What industry and state? you're probably covered by an award agreement.

Sssh! Get him to sign the engagement letter first!

 

[Anja_Nees]

A batch of graduates went through my work as seasonal clerks recently, with a few to be offered positions based on their performance.

One, upon meeting a senior member of the office (a silk) said "I'm going to have your job one day."

The intrepid graduate also tried to arrange a lunch with an even more senior practitioner upon his first meeting with them.

He may have been somewhat surprised to not be offered a position.

Don't be like that guy.

Never ceases to amaze that people like this exist and continue to get clerkships etc.

 

[Shoei]

So after 2 years at the ATO I'm moving across to the Australian Administrative Tribunal as a Tribunal Officer.

Bit of a sideways movement but I'm hoping moving to a smaller organisation will allow me to progress faster towards being a solicitor.

Anyone have any experience of becoming a solicitor this way? A recruiter recently told me government work isn't considered relevant by private firms on CVs and urged me to leave government asap, which is easier said than done.

 

[TheMightyEagles]

So after 2 years at the ATO I'm moving across to the Australian Administrative Tribunal as a Tribunal Officer.

Bit of a sideways movement but I'm hoping moving to a smaller organisation will allow me to progress faster towards being a solicitor.

Anyone have any experience of becoming a solicitor this way? A recruiter recently told me government work isn't considered relevant by private firms on CVs and urged me to leave government asap, which is easier said than done.

A friend of mine from law school did something similar although she had a couple of years' experience in a firm. Last I heard she helps out her department's legal team from time to time but not consistently. But her work-life balance is decent (flexi time is living the dream) and she enjoys it much more.

Realistically I'd agree with the recruiter that it'll be hard to take the government experience with you if you move into private practice. So you may need to initially accept a pay and lifestyle cut if you do so. Do you know which area of law interests you? Some of the smaller commercial firms in Perth offer junior solicitor roles through networking and word-of-mouth. Also if you instruct external counsel as part of your role, occasionally I hear about a partner who is impressed enough to offer a client contact a job at their firm. But question if you'd really want to go down that path, given that you've already built an impressive CV in the government. Most lawyers in private practice don't enjoy it and do something else.

Also I may be wrongly assuming that you've done College of Law and have a practising certificate. If not, that may be something to also consider (e.g. can you clock up the work experience component through discrete legal tasks in your new role?). Otherwise you'll be pigeon-holed into the graduate roles which, as you'll be aware, are ridiculously competitive.

 

[RAPPA]

So after 2 years at the ATO I'm moving across to the Australian Administrative Tribunal as a Tribunal Officer.

Bit of a sideways movement but I'm hoping moving to a smaller organisation will allow me to progress faster towards being a solicitor.

Anyone have any experience of becoming a solicitor this way? A recruiter recently told me government work isn't considered relevant by private firms on CVs and urged me to leave government asap, which is easier said than done.

I think the perception re government work really depends on whether the government agency conducts its litigation in-house or outsources. I went from in-house to a commonwealth agency that does a lot of its civil litigation work in-house so there's good experience to be gained. It is ultimately niche work in a way but 3-5 years in it provides a good platform elsewhere

 

[t_94]

Started my first full time job November 11. Been a good experience so far and I'm in a team thats very supportive of my development (no budget targets for first 6 months) which Im very thankful for.

Main issue is that I'm becoming fairly anxious about my performance. My work comes back with a fair bit of red pen

I find myself agonising over tasks, staying back and still getting a lot of corrections to my work. I am worried that I might not be up to it. Sometimes I feel flustered by what I can tell is a very reasonable workload.

I am trying to be rational and following some advice i was given that if its the first time I've done a task, then to not be too hard on myself, but if I make the same mistakes multiple times then that is the time to be concerned, however I can't shake that nervous feeling in the back of my head.


My gut feel tells me I have been a little underwhelming so far. I haven't recieved to many tasks that haven't had heaps of red pen on them. I just want to make the most of the opportunity.

Anyone have any tips for overcoming this anxitey? When should I begin to feel like things are getting a little easier? Is it normal that I'm finding things difficult at this point?

All feedback welcome.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Started my first full time job November 11. Been a good experience so far and I'm in a team thats very supportive of my development (no budget targets for first 6 months) which Im very thankful for.

Main issue is that I'm becoming fairly anxious about my performance. My work comes back with a fair bit of red pen

I find myself agonising over tasks, staying back and still getting a lot of corrections to my work. I am worried that I might not be up to it. Sometimes I feel flustered by what I can tell is a very reasonable workload.

I am trying to be rational and following some advice i was given that if its the first time I've done a task, then to not be too hard on myself, but if I make the same mistakes multiple times then that is the time to be concerned, however I can't shake that nervous feeling in the back of my head.


My gut feel tells me I have been a little underwhelming so far. I haven't recieved to many tasks that haven't had heaps of red pen on them. I just want to make the most of the opportunity.

Anyone have any tips for overcoming this anxitey? When should I begin to feel like things are getting a little easier? Is it normal that I'm finding things difficult at this point?

All feedback welcome.

What area are you working in? Where is the red pen coming from? Partner or SA level?

It’s completely natural to have a lot of corrections in your first few years of practice - let alone first six months. I have known partners to correct unnecessary shit just to make a point so don’t get too downhearted. Also keep in mind that midlevel lawyers charge for reviewing grads’ work and need to justify those entries with changes that may not be strictly necessary.

Learn what the person who signs off on your work wants and keep that in mind from the outset. Ask for feedback at regular intervals from the appropriate people.

As someone who has worked with a few grads - I much prefer someone who has a go. Be resilient.

 

[t_94]

What area are you working in? Where is the red pen coming from? Partner or SA level?

It’s completely natural to have a lot of corrections in your first few years of practice - let alone first six months. I have known partners to correct unnecessary shit just to make a point so don’t get too downhearted. Also keep in mind that midlevel lawyers charge for reviewing grads’ work and need to justify those entries with changes that may not be strictly necessary.

Learn what the person who signs off on your work wants and keep that in mind from the outset. Ask for feedback at regular intervals from the appropriate people.

As someone who has worked with a few grads - I much prefer someone who has a go. Be resilient.

Thanks for the response . I'm in worker's compensation. The feedback is mostly partner based at this stage.

Guess I just have to grind it out and hopefully improve along the way.

 

[checkraiseulite]

yep. a bigger worry at the grad/first year lawyer level is no one giving you any work at all.

that is when you should be concerned.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Thanks for the response . I'm in worker's compensation. The feedback is mostly partner based at this stage.

Guess I just have to grind it out and hopefully improve along the way.

If you're not getting feedback, they're not training you properly

Take it in your stride, particularly if it's coming from Partners. As previous poster said - if you aren't getting any work, then be worried.

 

[Power Raid]

Started my first full time job November 11. Been a good experience so far and I'm in a team thats very supportive of my development (no budget targets for first 6 months) which Im very thankful for.

Main issue is that I'm becoming fairly anxious about my performance. My work comes back with a fair bit of red pen

I find myself agonising over tasks, staying back and still getting a lot of corrections to my work. I am worried that I might not be up to it. Sometimes I feel flustered by what I can tell is a very reasonable workload.

I am trying to be rational and following some advice i was given that if its the first time I've done a task, then to not be too hard on myself, but if I make the same mistakes multiple times then that is the time to be concerned, however I can't shake that nervous feeling in the back of my head.


My gut feel tells me I have been a little underwhelming so far. I haven't recieved to many tasks that haven't had heaps of red pen on them. I just want to make the most of the opportunity.

Anyone have any tips for overcoming this anxitey? When should I begin to feel like things are getting a little easier? Is it normal that I'm finding things difficult at this point?

All feedback welcome.

I felt that way early in my career and couldn't help but feel disappointed in myself. A break through moment for me was when I was having my work reviewed by one of the notoriously grumpy partners. He said "what is this shit?" and to that I responded "what shit is that?".

Without looking up, he continued his review and I realised at that moment, he was just verbalising his thoughts as he tried to understand what was happening to a business from the file and reports presented. In short he wasn't ever grumpy with the employees (including me) rather he was just so experienced, nothing was new and as a result he was just grumpy.

I know it's hard but don't take in personally and simply learn from the red pen. This is your opportunity to learn and be shaped into a professional.

 

[Power Raid]

yep. a bigger worry at the grad/first year lawyer level is no one giving you any work at all.

that is when you should be concerned.

100%

the next event is being managed out.

for anyone who finds themselves in this situation is to walk the floor speaking to the managers and partners offering assistance. simple things to get noticed positively is to approach work with a bit of fun. putting up christmas decorations on your desk, an easter egg bowl on your desk, a football scarf etc are all "fun" opportunities to enable a relaxed conversation to start. Once people get to know you and like you, they will want you on their jobs.

being a good worker is 30% of a good career. being likeable and having contacts is the rest.

.......and sitting there doing nothing, being embarrassed, is not an option.

 

[Caesar]

 

[checkraiseulite]

how’s everyone adjusting to working from home? Aware there is a general thread on this but interested to hear lawyers’ perspectives.

I think legal practice won’t be the same even if this blows over. Firms will realise the cost/liability savings that can be achieved by having a workforce that is largely work from home. Courts will also realise the efficiency of remote hearings (think how much time is wasted at directions hearings/winding up and TFM cattle calls waiting to be called on - and the amount of lawyers/barristers that have made a career of these appearances and the sitting around that goes hand in hand with them) and in my view will keep in place a lot of the measures implemented in this time.

also what’s the general consensus as to job security, work that is going to flow out of this? What is your firm doing? Stand-downs/paycuts/redundancies?

Interested to hear any and all perspectives.

 

[getthefooty]

how’s everyone adjusting to working from home? Aware there is a general thread on this but interested to hear lawyers’ perspectives.

I think legal practice won’t be the same even if this blows over. Firms will realise the cost/liability savings that can be achieved by having a workforce that is largely work from home. Courts will also realise the efficiency of remote hearings (think how much time is wasted at directions hearings/winding up and TFM cattle calls waiting to be called on - and the amount of lawyers/barristers that have made a career of these appearances and the sitting around that goes hand in hand with them) and in my view will keep in place a lot of the measures implemented in this time.

also what’s the general consensus as to job security, work that is going to flow out of this? What is your firm doing? Stand-downs/paycuts/redundancies?

Interested to hear any and all perspectives.

I'm a junior M&A lawyer at a fairly big mid tier firm that prior to this was pretty poorly set up IT wise. Didn't even have our own laptops. As a result of this virus we've implemented infrastructure in a couple of weeks that was supposedly 18 months away.

It's only the dinosaurs who are preventing a more remote workforce. There is no real reason why you need a physical presence in the office - although I must admit my phone time and emails have gone up considerably which is probably not a good thing. I think an office is probably necessary because you need it to build a culture and to bounce off people and for client meetings etc, but is it worth renting on floor 708 on prime real estate in the city? I'm not sure.

I'm hoping at the very least it will make the dinosaurs more tech savvy/make them realise you don't necessarily need to be in the office to put in a big shift.

Personally I'm finding it much harder to detach myself from work. There's no ince ntive of "let's get this done so I can go home" so I'm just waking up, working, then going to sleep, and probably working at a slightly less efficient rate than I would be at work. There's also the added complication of having nowhere else to go, so I just sit at my computer and work.

I'm not in back end law but anything that speeds up the court process is a massive win. Let's face it - commercial litigation is a farce. There's a legion of borderline fraudsters who pray on adjournments and vacations.

As to my job security - it's all a bit up in the air at the moment. I'm very busy right now because clients/partners are trying to rush deals through, but it's the months to come that hold the great unknown. I think lawyers are generally better placed - certainly everyone in restructuring/insolvency should be fine, and we can also get involved in deals off the back of that. Employment lawyers are busy too (at least currently). There's also advisory work on the virus itself. There may be a period where we are scraping and scrounging a bit, but I'm hoping we'll emerge better off than most. Our firm is also well placed in the market in that top tier clients might try and cut costs and go to a place like us.

I'm not too worried, it's the pricy lawyers who aren't pulling their weight and maybe admin staff that will cop it the most I reckon. You can outsource your entire back office to the Philippines these days.