"The Left"

[deltablues]

I would never stand for Parliament - the reason I went to the Bar is I basically hate people - the idea of brown nosing to people I regard as total fookwits is like hell to me.

Is your first name Athanasius?

 

[deltablues]

Agreed, it can, but as the survey released the other day shows, the demand in a uni town is about more than just having quality institutions like Uni SA and Flinders etc.

Its all about "quality of life" and with Melbourne's established massive Asian population - growing daily - and Indian, and the support services that go with that for those communities, SA has a long way to go.

I am curious to know (in a positive and not negative argumentative way) why you seem to consider that having a massive Asian and Indian population in Melbourne is an indication of "quality of life". For example, I lived in Japan for a total of 5 years (3 in Yokohama and 2 in Tokyo - altho it is all one conurbation) and the homogeneity of the Japanese social and cultural streetscape by no means lacked a good quality of life due to the absence of an Asian [non-Japanese]/Indian population. In fact, such was the quality life in such an un-PC non-multicultural society as Japan that I would retire there in a heartbeat - but hard to get a permanent visa and I am too old to be adopted by a Japanese family.

Plus the US has plenty of small university towns and small cities which Adelaide, by comparison, is well on a par with.

 

[MaddAdam]

I am curious to know (in a positive and not negative argumentative way) why you seem to consider that having a massive Asian and Indian population in Melbourne is an indication of "quality of life". For example, I lived in Japan for a total of 5 years (3 in Yokohama and 2 in Tokyo - altho it is all one conurbation) and the homogeneity of the Japanese social and cultural streetscape by no means lacked a good quality of life due to the absence of an Asian [non-Japanese]/Indian population. In fact, such was the quality life in such an un-PC non-multicultural society as Japan that I would retire there in a heartbeat - but hard to get a permanent visa and I am too old to be adopted by a Japanese family.

Plus the US has plenty of small university towns and small cities which Adelaide, by comparison, is well on a par with.

I'm saying for attracting international students its better to have already established communities there.

 

[deltablues]

I'm saying for attracting international students its better to have already established communities there.

OK, I guess I missed that.

But is attracting international students a significant metric for the success of a college/university town in Oz?

 

[Mofra]

OK, I guess I missed that.

But is attracting international students a significant metric for the success of a college/university town in Oz?

It's our 3rd largest industry and our largest "value add" industry (iron ore and coal are our biggest earners - and they're in real trouble).
I'd say our ability to attract international students isn't just important, it's vital. We should be doing everything we can to entice more students here.

 

[MaddAdam]

OK, I guess I missed that.

But is attracting international students a significant metric for the success of a college/university town in Oz?

It certainly is. Pays the bills.

 

[MaddAdam]

It's our 3rd largest industry and our largest "value add" industry (iron ore and coal are our biggest earners - and they're in real trouble).
I'd say our ability to attract international students isn't just important, it's vital. We should be doing everything we can to entice more students here.

Education is Victoria's biggest industry.

 

[deltablues]

It's our 3rd largest industry and our largest "value add" industry (iron ore and coal are our biggest earners - and they're in real trouble).
I'd say our ability to attract international students isn't just important, it's vital. We should be doing everything we can to entice more students here.

I know we are getting off topic, but I read something a while ago that in Oz the international student "industry" was a backdoor way to gain permanent residency/citizenship, with some dubious operators springing up. And from some blogs I read on-line the responses indicated that the groves of academe were looking at it not from a tertiary education aspect but more as a core business to get the high international tuition fees. Which in turn helps maintain high salaries to the Vice Chancellors etc and the on-costs of hordes of admin folk and support staff.

This never used to be the case when I was at Uni (albeit back in the days when dinosaurs trod Earth) so what has changed? For a tertiary education system to be so beholden to international students seems strange to me - it raises potential conflicts of interest re revenue versus standards and pass rates etc.

I suspect Oz does not have the wealthy donor system to the same extent like we have here in the States.

 

[MaddAdam]

I know we are getting off topic, but I read something a while ago that in Oz the international student "industry" was a backdoor way to gain permanent residency/citizenship, with some dubious operators springing up. And from some blogs I read on-line the responses indicated that the groves of academe were looking at it not from a tertiary education aspect but more as a core business to get the high international tuition fees. Which in turn helps maintain high salaries to the Vice Chancellors etc and the on-costs of hordes of admin folk and support staff.

This never used to be the case when I was at Uni (albeit back in the days when dinosaurs trod Earth) so what has changed? For a tertiary education system to be so beholden to international students seems strange to me - it raises potential conflicts of interest re revenue versus standards and pass rates etc.

I suspect Oz does not have the wealthy donor system to the same extent like we have here in the States.

Pretty much everything you say is correct in degrees, but none of it I'd disagree with.

 

[Mofra]

I know we are getting off topic, but I read something a while ago that in Oz the international student "industry" was a backdoor way to gain permanent residency/citizenship, with some dubious operators springing up. And from some blogs I read on-line the responses indicated that the groves of academe were looking at it not from a tertiary education aspect but more as a core business to get the high international tuition fees. Which in turn helps maintain high salaries to the Vice Chancellors etc and the on-costs of hordes of admin folk and support staff.

This never used to be the case when I was at Uni (albeit back in the days when dinosaurs trod Earth) so what has changed? For a tertiary education system to be so beholden to international students seems strange to me - it raises potential conflicts of interest re revenue versus standards and pass rates etc.

I suspect Oz does not have the wealthy donor system to the same extent like we have here in the States.

It really comes down to "private learning institutions" (who are pretty good at doling out scholarships if your surname rhymes with "Babbott" shortly after gaining favour legislatively) and the lack of oversight on the sector - there's a reason the sector wants to remain largely out of reach of regulators.

Universities in Australia are basically using international students to subsidise domestic student tuition given the huge gulf in fees paid (finishing my post grad last year I had ~30% international students on my course, paying 3-4x the fees for each unit). I doubt our tertiary education system could survive with a sudden and drastic downturn in international student enrolments.

 

[deltablues]

It really comes down to "private learning institutions" (who are pretty good at doling out scholarships if your surname rhymes with "Babbott" shortly after gaining favour legislatively) and the lack of oversight on the sector - there's a reason the sector wants to remain largely out of reach of regulators.

Universities in Australia are basically using international students to subsidise domestic student tuition given the huge gulf in fees paid (finishing my post grad last year I had ~30% international students on my course, paying 3-4x the fees for each unit). I doubt our tertiary education system could survive with a sudden and drastic downturn in international student enrolments.

Did you find that the quality of your courses were impacted due to language/cultural differences? For example, in the Law (which is my background) many lectures back then were conducted in a Socratic manner, which could be fairly brutal if you come from a non-Western culture where questioning/debating your lecturer/sensei was a cultural faux pas.

I recall that once I was an external visiting lecturer for a half-subject compulsory topic for final year students in Architecture (lecturing on legal aspects of practicing architecture) where at that time about 10 percent of the class were Chinese. Their grasp of spoken English and especially written English (I set and marked the exams) was dire. I mentioned this to the Dean who suggested that I make some "allowances". If they failed they washed out.

I considered this challenge and in the end I resolved it this way: if they were Law students I would fail them, as written and spoken skills (which the uncharitable might say is learning how to bullshit) in the Law are paramount. But in Architecture not so much, so I marked them on that basis - as long as they got my concepts then I would struggle through their answers.

But it's a very slippery slope...

Another example - when I was working in a Gulf country many years ago a few of the young local Arab lawyers in the company were attending a reasonably well-known UK university, doing their Masters. They returned to complete their theses and asked me to check their work. I did so, and apart from some heavy-duty plagiarization without references, their written English was almost impenetrable (which is not unusual for English-speaking Arabs as they have major issues with English syntax) and I started to re-write large sections of their uh, efforts. But in the end I stopped as it was like pulling at a loose yarn from an old sweater - where do you stop? So I made a few changes, they flew back to London, and later in the year returned as LL.Ms.

Money talks. Education walks.

 

[MaddAdam]

Did you find that the quality of your courses were impacted due to language/cultural differences? For example, in the Law (which is my background) many lectures back then were conducted in a Socratic manner, which could be fairly brutal if you come from a non-Western culture where questioning/debating your lecturer/sensei was a cultural faux pas.

The cultural differences don't stop there. I know UniMelb now has specialist classes in "bedside manner" to reflect the fact that many medicine students are from Asian backgrounds and while they might have nailed the book learnin' they have not been sufficiently "socialised" to o deal with the various patients they'll get.

 

[Mofra]

Did you find that the quality of your courses were impacted due to language/cultural differences? For example, in the Law (which is my background) many lectures back then were conducted in a Socratic manner, which could be fairly brutal if you come from a non-Western culture where questioning/debating your lecturer/sensei was a cultural faux pas.

I recall that once I was an external visiting lecturer for a half-subject compulsory topic for final year students in Architecture (lecturing on legal aspects of practicing architecture) where at that time about 10 percent of the class were Chinese. Their grasp of spoken English and especially written English (I set and marked the exams) was dire. I mentioned this to the Dean who suggested that I make some "allowances". If they failed they washed out.

I considered this challenge and in the end I resolved it this way: if they were Law students I would fail them, as written and spoken skills (which the uncharitable might say is learning how to bullshit) in the Law are paramount. But in Architecture not so much, so I marked them on that basis - as long as they got my concepts then I would struggle through their answers.

There were some language issues and specialist support services were made free of charge for people with English as a second language, I don't believe there was much (if any) change to quality or method of teaching for cultural issues or comprehension issues though - a research presentation was part of the capstone project for the course (only local students competing it in my final semester) and that was a recent change due to the nationalization of post-grad requirements so is set to stay. One other management course and an elective unit necessitated group presentations for part of the grade and no allowances were made for these either.

It's actually pretty brutal - one classmate was repeating an economics unit and if he failed it again, he'd be expelled then lose his student visa so there was quite a lot riding on three assessments - his whole future in Australia. That's before you consider the financial cost to international students of repeating a unit which could mean an extra few years of student debt once they enter the workforce.

Anecdotally, Melbourne University just a couple of years ago established mid-semester English classes for their undergrad law students due to the failure rates, much of which was due to basic English expression. RMIT considered something similar a year or two ago so language issues are not just an international student problem, especially with the rise of txt spk and autocorrect.

 

[deltablues]

It's actually pretty brutal - one classmate was repeating an economics unit and if he failed it again, he'd be expelled then lose his student visa so there was quite a lot riding on three assessments - his whole future in Australia. That's before you consider the financial cost to international students of repeating a unit which could mean an extra few years of student debt once they enter the workforce.

Anecdotally, Melbourne University just a couple of years ago established mid-semester English classes for their undergrad law students due to the failure rates, much of which was due to basic English expression. RMIT considered something similar a year or two ago so language issues are not just an international student problem, especially with the rise of txt spk and autocorrect.

1. It can be brutal but if you take into account their fees then you introduce double standards, even if only subliminally.

2. I think it is difficult to have a proper grasp of educated written English unless you read and write a lot - especially read. It sets up recognition patterns. Plus of course Latin should be made compulsory - you learn English grammar that way (as well as a gateway to German and the Romance languages). So call me old-fashioned...

 

[Chief]

The cultural differences don't stop there. I know UniMelb now has specialist classes in "bedside manner" to reflect the fact that many medicine students are from Asian backgrounds and while they might have nailed the book learnin' they have not been sufficiently "socialised" to o deal with the various patients they'll get.

I was sure there was an Asian version of House. All I found was:

 

[Chief]

Anecdotally, Melbourne University just a couple of years ago established mid-semester English classes for their undergrad law students due to the failure rates, much of which was due to basic English expression. RMIT considered something similar a year or two ago so language issues are not just an international student problem, especially with the rise of txt spk and autocorrect.

Ah, the old English for Engineers course, 1990's. Good times, good times.

 

[Present Not Past]

This a term thrown about like confetti in Australia, and I've come to the conclusion that many who hurl it about have no clue what they mean by it. I think there is a very strong case for an argument of minds/ideology over future economic direction, but to many, "the left", often accompanied by an synonym of crazy seems to be a catch all term coined by conservatives in the media, and enthusiastically adopted by their acolytes to mean anybody opposing this government, and it's policies.
So what does left wing mean to you? Is it Maoism, socialism, communism, Marxism, it's never exactly been a united movement, which is why I find this sweeping generalisation odd.

It's actually very simple. The "Left" has always been anti-conservatism or anti-establishment, whether that's anti-establishment/conservatism capitalism, communism, socialism or Marxism.
The Labor Party in my opinion lost it's way in Australian politics when it decided to chase the middle ground in favour of populism over it's grass roots support of anti-conservatist politics. Now for example it's impossible for it to whip up a ground swell of support like it did in 1972 or 1983 because it has completely lost it's identity.

 

[The Speaker]

It's actually very simple. The "Left" has always been anti-conservatism or anti-establishment, whether that's anti-establishment/conservatism capitalism, communism, socialism or Marxism.
The Labor Party in my opinion lost it's way in Australian politics when it decided to chase the middle ground in favour of populism over it's grass roots support of anti-conservatist politics. Now for example it's impossible for it to whip up a ground swell of support like it did in 1972 or 1983 because it has completely lost it's identity.

What happens when the 'left' becomes the establishment?

 

[smokingjacket]

It's actually very simple. The "Left" has always been anti-conservatism or anti-establishment, whether that's anti-establishment/conservatism capitalism, communism, socialism or Marxism.
The Labor Party in my opinion lost it's way in Australian politics when it decided to chase the middle ground in favour of populism over it's grass roots support of anti-conservatist politics. Now for example it's impossible for it to whip up a ground swell of support like it did in 1972 or 1983 because it has completely lost it's identity.

Party of power vs party of protest argument

 

[smokingjacket]

What happens when the 'left' becomes the establishment?

Do you mean historically or now? Because the most recent leftist Western government just got beaten with a stick by the EU.

 

[The Speaker]

Do you mean historically or now? Because the most recent leftist Western government just got beaten with a stick by the EU.

Well this is (one of) the problem with the term(s). Some would argue that the EU, by its very nature, is liberal and 'leftist'.

If common policies amongst governments today were only believed amongst the anti-establishment, mostly young 'left' fifty years ago, does that mean that the 'left' are the establishment today?

 

[smokingjacket]

Well this is (one of) the problem with the term(s). Some would argue that the EU, by its very nature, is liberal and 'leftist'.

If common policies amongst governments today were only believed amongst the anti-establishment, mostly young 'left' fifty years ago, does that mean that the 'left' are the establishment today?

Leftist: I say Chavez, you say Di Natale
You say Labour, I say Syriza

To the tune of...

Agreed, the EU is a re-distributive organisation based upon the philosophy of some of the finest European left intellectuals. Is it a social-democratic organisation still? Or has the crisis given rise to harder financialisation types. Or just European power politics with Russia lurking in the half spaces?

Today's societies social policies have come far but capital remains supreme and glorious. More dominant than ever but with an eye over the post-capitalism precipice. Would it be fair to say the work done with racism is just a continuation of the work of the rational as science has gleaned further our similarity? It's an odd sort of thing to deal with, because we've less community, but approached a level of top down decency to our fellows.

 

[Mofra]

Agreed, the EU is a re-distributive organisation based upon the philosophy of some of the finest European left intellectuals. Is it a social-democratic organisation still? Or has the crisis given rise to harder financialisation types. Or just European power politics with Russia lurking in the half spaces?

Today's societies social policies have come far but capital remains supreme and glorious. More dominant than ever but with an eye over the post-capitalism precipice. Would it be fair to say the work done with racism is just a continuation of the work of the rational as science has gleaned further our similarity? It's an odd sort of thing to deal with, because we've less community, but approached a level of top down decency to our fellows.

Yet the most powerful leader in the EU is centre-right, desperately trying to keep Greece within the EU confines as keeping the weaker economies using the Euro keeps the currency artificially low for the German manufacturing sector, increasing their global competitiveness.
The social democracies at bit players in the EU, while the rise of far right parties (e.g. Golden Dawn in Greece, Jobbik in Hungary) as invariably occurs at any time of economic turmoil makes it hard to argue that the EU provides a centre-left influence over its member states. The dissolution of Syriza's power within months of being elected shows the supposed influence of 'the left' in the EU is not as strong as it seems.

 

[Aed0s]

I call the Left 'leftists' since they typically self-identify as being to the left of the centre. I have friends on the left who self-identify themselves politically as "on the left" in their own words. There are different political leanings and distinctions which can be clearly defined with regard to individual freedom, the economy etc... Political maps clearly illustrate that the ALP/Greens constitute what we would otherwise call the Left with the latter being a remarkable feature of what is more commonly known as the Loony Left.

However, there are always exceptions to the rule and you'll often find individuals who hold contradictory views and demonstrating almost schizophrenia-like symptoms in their political leanings.

Seems slightly hypocritical that mainstream leftists are scared of being labelled leftists by non-leftists especially when they're the first to attack the LNP or anyone to the right of them as 'right-wing conservatives' with the obvious intention of attributing to them a negative implication (creepy!).

Anyhow, if your intention is to try and dismantle the left-ring conventions, well you're in tough luck. If anything it seems as if the left-right divide will continue as long as ideological differences in society remain. Feel free to ignore it though, if it makes you feel any better.

 

[Aed0s]

The dissolution of Syriza's power within months of being elected shows the supposed influence of 'the left' in the EU is not as strong as it seems.

Pretty sure this was because of empty promises of the Tsipras' government following the referendum outcome. So when Greeks realised that SYRIZA fu**** them over and made their so-called 'democracy' look like a circus parade their legitimacy went through the window. Anyhow, I reckon that Greek politics should be examined independently from European politics now since the centrists have collapsed and radicalisation on both sides of the playing field have become norm - something which often happens in times of economic depression.

But yes, Golden Dawn and Jobbik are two emerging far-right parties in Europe at the moment. Their emergence seems to be the one of, if not the coolest trend in EU politics at the moment. This is not to say that the overarching influence of Germany, England and France will erode any time soon.