Society/Culture The Manosphere - Andrew Tate, the PUA grift, and other such nasties.

[faible]

I think (and this is from discussion with an almost incel) its this idea of loss of privilege and rights. Tate spouts off about "traditional" values and men getting what they used to have (at the expense of equality). Its very similar to Jordy Peterson and many others, Tates just made it "edgy" and "cool".

The idea that you can bang bad bitches, get money and be a "badass" is appealing to a formative brain.

Any idea of the person's background that would have meant they felt that way?

I assume all young people at certain points feel that pinch of wanting to have agency but not quite being an adult yet, not really knowing who you are in life, all the usual 'teen growing up' type feeling they're confronting, most won't turn to Tate and co.

Peterson is (or was) much more 'subtle' in how he markets it, I know at least one female who's very in to Peterson. She's also quite religious so his 'traditional Christian values' schtick seems to appeal to her.

 

[phantom13]

Any idea of the person's background that would have meant they felt that way?

I assume all young people at certain points feel that pinch of wanting to have agency but not quite being an adult yet, not really knowing who you are in life, all the usual 'teen growing up' type feeling they're confronting, most won't turn to Tate and co.

Peterson is (or was) much more 'subtle' in how he markets it, I know at least one female who's very in to Peterson. She's also quite religious so his 'traditional Christian values' schtick seems to appeal to her.

Yeh the few have all been pretty well off white middle/upper class males.

Tate has female admirers and followers too. Jordy is in his way more subtle and in other ways more over. Tate is more spouting for the individual, Peterson pushed the return of culture/society to 50s living.

Ultimately i can see how most young men can come to find his bullshit appealing. Well off young men probably see a world where their dad had a doting wife, nice big house and a mistress, constantly catered for and think "why dont i have that" and less well off young men probably see that world as an aspirational dream. Couple that with alot of boomer nostalgia and media showing that life as idyllic.

I can see how it becomes a thing with people lacking the critical thinking to understand that the other side of that for the women in those scenarios isnt exactly swell.

 

[Gralin]

the algorithms will tip people down this path real quickly

and like any grift expose enough people to it and its going to stick on a chunk of them

 

[Gralin]

add to that people in your social circles can point you to it and reinforce IRL

which makes it even more effective

I've got a mate who got decently pilled

he's was a pretty easy target for that stuff, he had some pretty shit views before anything started, good old private school stuff

add in an unhappy marriage and a lot of time home alone online and starting with some supposed self help videos on self esteem headed into a dark place quite easily

 

[Gethelred]

Any idea of the person's background that would have meant they felt that way?

I assume all young people at certain points feel that pinch of wanting to have agency but not quite being an adult yet, not really knowing who you are in life, all the usual 'teen growing up' type feeling they're confronting, most won't turn to Tate and co.

Peterson is (or was) much more 'subtle' in how he markets it, I know at least one female who's very in to Peterson. She's also quite religious so his 'traditional Christian values' schtick seems to appeal to her.

I mean, it's a power fantasy. Both of them sell a power fantasy to those most vulnerable to them, packaged in such a way as to predicate it to slightly different targets; for young teenagers to early 20's, it's Tate and his brand of 'wann be a badass?' and for anyone older it's Peterson's 'Get your room in order, be the master of yourself!'.

It's another of those 'masculinity is in crisis' things; masculinity has always - always - been in crisis, and men have always felt like their masculinity is being challenged.

I don't know if I've got a solution beyond increasing acceptance as a wider society for boy's and men's identity struggles/issues. This is a patriarchy thing, IMO; men feel they don't meet the wider society standards for masculinity, and that failure jars at them. They cannot be the image of a 1950's father; they cannot be the breadwinner or the strongest kid on the footy field or the playground; they cannot be the bully or the alpha, not in the way traditional masculinity would have it.

The problem being, traditional masculinity sells an image of perfection that no-one can reach, and all men who choose to measure themselves against it feel that lack. Expose the illusion and ask men and boys who they are and what they want, and accept what you find; do this, and you're well on your way to defanging Tate.

 

[Gough]

It's a matter of time before it all comes tumbling down for Tate. The go ahead for the Romanian trial has just been given, then whatever happens there it's back to Blighty afterwards for civil and criminal proceedings.

 

[faible]

It's a matter of time before it all comes tumbling down for Tate. The go ahead for the Romanian trial has just been given, then whatever happens there it's back to Blighty afterwards for civil and criminal proceedings.

I'm sure Russell Brand will be posting content about how persecuted Tate is.

 

[Chief]

I'm genuinely intrigued by what draws young men to Tate.

Definitely. But treating - or researching - symptoms can lead to the underlying cause.

It looks to me like any action can be attacked as not treating the root cause. Not treating the effects. Overkill. Making innocent men feel bad. Waste of resources. It's natural. Shut up about it and it will go away. Nanny state (there's one I haven't heard in a couple of years). Censorship. It isn't a problem anyway.

All the objections. People in their cosy nests don't want to do anything to endanger their position. Don't want to lead. Don't want to stick their head above the parapet.

So you get gridlock. Apathy. Thoughts and prayers.

 

[phantom13]

I mean, it's a power fantasy. Both of them sell a power fantasy to those most vulnerable to them, packaged in such a way as to predicate it to slightly different targets; for young teenagers to early 20's, it's Tate and his brand of 'wann be a badass?' and for anyone older it's Peterson's 'Get your room in order, be the master of yourself!'.

It's another of those 'masculinity is in crisis' things; masculinity has always - always - been in crisis, and men have always felt like their masculinity is being challenged.

I don't know if I've got a solution beyond increasing acceptance as a wider society for boy's and men's identity struggles/issues. This is a patriarchy thing, IMO; men feel they don't meet the wider society standards for masculinity, and that failure jars at them. They cannot be the image of a 1950's father; they cannot be the breadwinner or the strongest kid on the footy field or the playground; they cannot be the bully or the alpha, not in the way traditional masculinity would have it.

The problem being, traditional masculinity sells an image of perfection that no-one can reach, and all men who choose to measure themselves against it feel that lack. Expose the illusion and ask men and boys who they are and what they want, and accept what you find; do this, and you're well on your way to defanging Tate.

Well said, particularly the last para. Its important to remember that for the most part traditional and toxic masculinity is actually pushed by men, most women dont support it in spite of Tate and co trying to sell you thats its what women want.

 

[the_interloper]

Any idea of the person's background that would have meant they felt that way?

I assume all young people at certain points feel that pinch of wanting to have agency but not quite being an adult yet, not really knowing who you are in life, all the usual 'teen growing up' type feeling they're confronting, most won't turn to Tate and co.

Peterson is (or was) much more 'subtle' in how he markets it, I know at least one female who's very in to Peterson. She's also quite religious so his 'traditional Christian values' schtick seems to appeal to her.

I'll bet you they're into the rap music!

 

[Chief]

I'll bet you they're into the rap music!

And probably Dungeons & Dragons.

 

[phantom13]

I'll bet you they're into the rap music!

Nope

And probably Dungeons & Dragons.

Close, Warcraft. World of Warcraft? The online game.

Honestly I was quite shocked, seemingly progressive pretty well educated clever guy but I guess it’s to the point, the reach of this shit can be pretty wide and it’s silly to suggest it’s just the mouth breathers.

 

[Gethelred]

And probably Dungeons & Dragons.

Are you telling me I've been... corrupted?

 

[Chief]

Are you telling me I've been... corrupted?

You may have fought the Gulthias Tree, is all I'm saying.

 

[Gethelred]

You may have fought the Gulthias Tree, is all I'm saying.

 

[Cmarsh]

It's needed here, if you look at the research.

The authors say is a quicker study to get findings in public and needs more research which is what a federal response would help schools and parents with.

It's not that the schools are bystanders poking their noses in. They are affected directly. Too many teachers - mainly female - are having to deal with this awful behaviour without adequate support. Too many female students (and likely other minorities and LGBT kids) don't feel safe at school as a direct result of Tate and other grifters warping kids worldview.

If you're annoyed about resources spent on this, go for the source. Join the voices asking that this content be blocked on social media. Demand that these people have their accounts revoked under the platform's existing terms of use.

And who else do we ban from the internet?

 

[Gralin]

Well said, particularly the last para. Its important to remember that for the most part traditional and toxic masculinity is actually pushed by men, most women dont support it in spite of Tate and co trying to sell you thats its what women want.

Plenty of women reinforce patriarchal standards either consciously or unconsciously

They've been raised in the same system

I remember a few years ago I bought some new t-shirts all of them with artwork on them.

One had this image on it


And my partner said that's not very manly

Just reflex level response from someone who wasn't happy with themselves for saying that

 

[phantom13]

Plenty of women reinforce patriarchal standards either consciously or unconsciously

They've been raised in the same system

I remember a few years ago I bought some new t-shirts all of them with artwork on them.

One had this image on it
View attachment 1989091

And my partner said that's not very manly

Just reflex level response from someone who wasn't happy with themselves for saying that

Did say most not all.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Plenty of women reinforce patriarchal standards either consciously or unconsciously

They've been raised in the same system

I remember a few years ago I bought some new t-shirts all of them with artwork on them.

One had this image on it
View attachment 1989091

And my partner said that's not very manly

Just reflex level response from someone who wasn't happy with themselves for saying that

Bunnake!

 

[Gralin]

Did say most not all.

My point is that even people that would like change can end up reinforcing bad stuff because it's really pervasive

Like we're swimming against the tide and Tate is swimming with it in a lot or respects

 

[Engimal v3]

I'm genuinely intrigued by what draws young men to Tate.

His intellect.

 

[Chief]

His intellect.

I suppose shouting "I'm bored" when you're unable to come up with a reply to a difficult question is about teenage boy level. "That's gay" being another. Could only arise from the razor sharp mind of a manchild like Tate.

 

[the_interloper]

I suppose shouting "I'm bored" when you're unable to come up with a reply to a difficult question is about teenage boy level. "That's gay" being another. Could only arise from the razor sharp mind of a manchild like Tate.

I had a look at his Twitter the other week. Every 4 posts seems to be calling something gay that isn't gay, it's a bold strategy, let's see if it pays off for him!

 

[Gough]

I had a look at his Twitter the other week. Every 4 posts seems to be calling something gay that isn't gay, it's a bold strategy, let's see if it pays off for him!

When you claim to hold the key to the universe you need slightly better debating skills than the average ten year old.

 

[faible]

I had a look at his Twitter the other week. Every 4 posts seems to be calling something gay that isn't gay, it's a bold strategy, let's see if it pays off for him!

Didn't he say eating was gay recently?