No Oppo Supporters The Melt Thread

[ydraw]

Amazing how some where screaming for the youngsters to play last year even though we where top dog. Well they have got their wish this season with the youngsters and look where we are now.

So you don't think any of our youngsters are better than Suban, De Boer or Mzungu?

 

[UFO Tatsu]

Don't tell me to get a grip. Don't be so sensitive perhaps... We shouldn't accept mediocrity... unless you are apart of the lot that applauded Mayne's goal after the siren after we lost to Carlton this season. Pathetic.

Whether this is a 1 year rebuild or longer for Freo remains to be seen. I am not convinced after the width and depth of the clubs collapse.

No one should be safe- player or coach. All I am saying is another season like this ... if it's like this same time next year then he should go. We should DEMAND better.

The list managment is iffy at best with D. Pearce being resigned for 2 years.

Get a grip

 

[malpaso]

So you don't think any of our youngsters are better than Suban, De Boer or Mzungu?

A lot goes over your head doesn't it? Salim is saying that by playing youngsters there will be short term pain and losses. Last year we were top of the table. Do the math.

 

[Square Peg]

Are Hawthorn blooding heaps of new players this year, to address those deficiencies?
Nope. Bet your arse they aren't.

Nice rant, pity it is not backed up by facts. In addition to the players you mentioned the hawks have debuted three more this year - Burton, Hardwick and Heatherley. So that's seven debutants. In addition, before this year Sicily had played 3 games, O'Brien 4 games so they are basically novices.
Compare the 2016 round 1 teams to the 2012 losing finals teams of Hawthorn and Fremantle respectively. They had 12 guys playing this year that played in 2012, we had 15. They've won three flags since and turned their list over more than we have.

 

[salim malik]

So you don't think any of our youngsters are better than Suban, De Boer or Mzungu?

I don't think that at all. Just saying not only you but a host of posters have been pushing for the youngsters all of last and this season. Last season was a top of the ladder finish playing the group you mentioned. This season a heap of the youngsters have been played and you can see the results. Injuries have been a major factor but when you're in the mix for a cup experience has always been the determining factor.

 

[Proud SJW]

Nice rant, pity it is not backed up by facts. In addition to the players you mentioned the hawks have debuted three more this year - Burton, Hardwick and Heatherley. So that's seven debutants. In addition, before this year Sicily had played 3 games, O'Brien 4 games so they are basically novices.
Compare the 2016 round 1 teams to the 2012 losing finals teams of Hawthorn and Fremantle respectively. They had 12 guys playing this year that played in 2012, we had 15. They've won three flags since and turned their list over more than we have.

Ok, so I missed three. To make up for it, I'll put the one-game guys back in from 2015, making it 24 and, oh, look, we're ahead again.

With regard to the "novices", I'll see your Sicily and O'Brien and call with Taberner and Hannath, who had each played several games in 2013/2014 but were basically novices in 2015. I can do this all day, if you like.

As for the 12 versus 15 thing, taking the number of players who've played this year and comparing it to who played a few years ago is misleading. Which players? Have they put in regular games? Did you include Sandi and Fyfe in that 15 of yours? Johnson? They played this season. De Boers, C Pearce and Gu have played a couple of games each too, did you include them? Were any of them regular features in the team though?
Nope.
Using figures like that says pretty much jack shit. Full comparison, or GTFO.


And lastly, what the hell are you arguing for?

You come up with three players I missed, which adds three games I didn't count for the Hawks, and you're saying this somehow invalidates the entire argument that the Hawks are pretty much the same as us (and a lot of other teams in the comp) when it comes to playing young players in successful years? If you've managed to find five, and another ten games, you might have had a point. But finding three one-gamers to bring the number up to about even doesn't do that, I'm afraid. Kudos on doing as much research as you did, though, that's actually quite admirable. I'm not even going to double check.

Phht. **** all these twits who keep banging on about us not playing youth. They're just parotting the same clueless, biased media who've been saying the same thing for years.

 

[ydraw]

I don't think that at all. Just saying not only you but a host of posters have been pushing for the youngsters all of last and this season..

That's because we had 3-4 players who were not of AFL standard while talented youngsters wasted time in the magoos.

Rating experience over skill is a big part of the reason for the failure of our game plan and why we very rarely win games when our opposition kick over 100 points.

 

[ydraw]

You come up with three players I missed, which adds three games I didn't count for the Hawks, and you're saying this somehow invalidates the entire argument that the Hawks are pretty much the same as us (and a lot of other teams in the comp) when it comes to playing young players in successful years?

The difference is the Hawks never had 4-5 extremely ordinary players who were playing week after week at the expense of younger, better players.

Probably the worst player in the Hawks team last year was Puopolo and he was still pretty handy.

The Hawks don't have any Subans, De Boers, Mzungus who are keeping kids out of their team. For the last 3 seasons, we did.

 

[salim malik]

That's because we had 3-4 players who were not of AFL standard while talented youngsters wasted time in the magoos.

Rating experience over skill is a big part of the reason for the failure of our game plan and why we very rarely win games when our opposition kick over 100 points.

Your selective quoting of posts does not help your opinions.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

Anyone we blooded would have been better than guys like Suban or DeBoer. They are list cloggers and both played about 100 more AFL games than they deserved.

Let's not forget we threw away a GF in 2013 by playing De Boer over Lachie Neale because our coach prefers people who can tackle over actual good footballers.

I'm with Salim that last paragraph is completely wrong.

 

[Square Peg]

You come up with three players I missed, which adds three games I didn't count for the Hawks, and you're saying this somehow invalidates the entire argument.

Yep, since you argued that they have only debuted four players this year, when they have debuted seven, I'd say your argument is shaky, and that's being kind.

 

[Proud SJW]

Yep, since you argued that they have only debuted four players this year, when they have debuted seven, I'd say your argument is shaky, and that's being kind.

Right. so the argument in an essence being that the Hawks and other teams sitting on top of the table blood as few players as we do is in doubt because I missed three who would have made the numbers even.
Actually, no, we're ahead in games played, and equal on actual numbers of debutants.

You can be "kind" all you like, you're still wrong in disputing it.

 

[malpaso]

The Hawks don't have any Subans, De Boers, Mzungus who are keeping kids out of their team. For the last 3 seasons, we did.

Which makes our coaching staff pretty damn good right?

 

[Mudd]

We finished top of the ladder last season. We were 9-0 at the start of the season.
So why the **** would you stuff around with a working combination in a season in which you had a decent shot at a premiership? No one does that. No one. Not even the club with three very recent premierships already behind them.

It absolutely beggars belief that some people still think we should have thrown away that chance in 2015 to blood more new players who may or may not have worked out in their first seasons.

working combination?

ray charles could have seen that we were always going to fail in september last year.

It made me sick last year reading people on here saying "we are just taking the pedal off" after quarter time.

Some of you deluded flogs need to watch other games of AFL throughout the week and not just Freo.

 

[Square Peg]

Right. so the argument in an essence being that the Hawks and other teams sitting on top of the table blood as few players as we do is in doubt because I missed three who would have made the numbers even.
Actually, no, we're ahead in games played, and equal on actual numbers of debutants.

You can be "kind" all you like, you're still wrong in disputing it.

Mate, they've debuted seven players. You said:
"Are Hawthorn blooding heaps of new players this year, to address those deficiencies?
Nope. Bet your arse they aren't."

If you want a rational argument about whether we did or did not **** up in 2015, which is what this is ultimately about, you'll be taken more seriously if you points are mired in reality

 

[Proud SJW]

Mate, they've debuted seven players.

So, same as us in 2015, then? Which was, you know, my point?

If you want a rational argument about whether we did or did not **** up in 2015, which is what this is ultimately about, you'll be taken more seriously if you points are mired in reality

No, this is not what this is "ultimately about" because I haven't said a damned thing about the quality of the respective teams other than to say Hawthorn are subject to similar doubts this year as we were in 2015 after finishing (to this point) on top of the ladder. Less so because they have a history of being able to win through even when they didn't look like they were playing well, which is slightly differ... oh, hang on, no, it's not different to us in 2015 at all, is it?
I'm talking about the list strategy, which is more or less identical.


The argument about whether or not we ****ed up in 2015 is a completely different one, which you're entitled to rabbit on about all you like, but if you're going to, then don't quote me in doing so.

 

[salim malik]

working combination?

ray charles could have seen that we were always going to fail in september last year.

It made me sick last year reading people on here saying "we are just taking the pedal off" after quarter time.

Some of you deluded flogs need to watch other games of AFL throughout the week and not just Freo.

Bulldust, Broken leg to Fyfe,injuries ,Luke out and a crucial turnover cost the game. The deluded flogs where the lot who think all games can be won by big margins. Have a look at the results of the top sides this season. Hawthorn have struggled in a lot of their games are on top and are not copping the criticism that Fremantle did. Intelligent footy followers know who the deluded flogs are.

 

[Proud SJW]

working combination?

Yeah. We finished minor premiers. Gave ourselves the best shot at a flag we possibly could.

ray charles could have seen that we were always going to fail in september last year.

Yeah, right, so we should have accepted it as a given that even though we were on top of the ladder, we weren't going to get a flag so we should have sacrificed that in favour of playing the kids and gotten it over with.

Jesus ****ing christ, and I repeat - THAT is accepting mediocrity.

It made me sick last year reading people on here saying "we are just taking the pedal off" after quarter time.
Some of you deluded flogs need to watch other games of AFL throughout the week and not just Freo.

I don't remember being one of them, maybe early in the season but by mid season it was obvious that was merely an indication of how good we were.
don't know why you're quoting me in saying this.

 

[sportsmaniac89]

I can only assume that the argument is about whether we ****ed up our list management strategy in 2015, I'd almost argue that since 2013 we've got it wrong in some respects.

The different between the top teams and us is their ability to stay up for longer.

The reason for this in my view; their ability to top up to fill a need and their ability to create a natural progression for their youth.

Since 2013 we've certainly not topped up to fill a need and as for our progression of youth, the reason that 2016 has turned out the way it has is two-fold. Firstly our injury toll has been horrendous but in turn we've had to progress our youth in some sort of rush as opposed to a natural progression.

What should have been happening in my view is after the 2013 GF, we should have identified the players that perhaps aren't up to standard and slowly phased them out...the fact remains that we did not do this. As a consequence, you see what's happened this year as a result.

This season when looked at hand on heart has had a lot of problems but besides the most obvious one (injuries), the biggest failings have been with the list management (Bond and Lloyd) and the coaching (Lyon). With the greatest of respect our win at all costs mantra which, while admirable, has left us exposed in some respects. The most important thing now is to rebound from this and Bond and Lloyd need to get it right this off-season or they could find themselves very quickly out of a job.

 

[Proud SJW]

Bulldust, Broken leg to Fyfe,injuries ,Luke out and a crucial turnover cost the game. The deluded flogs where the lot who think all games can be won by big margins. Have a look at the results of the top sides this season. Hawthorn have struggled in a lot of their games are on top and are not copping the criticism that Fremantle did. Intelligent footy followers know who the deluded flogs are.

Not to mention the "good work with the Ballantyne situation".

 

[Mudd]

Jesus ******* christ, and I repeat - THAT is accepting mediocrity.

.

Incorrect, it is acknowledging mediocrity.

 

[Proud SJW]

Incorrect, it is acknowledging mediocrity.

Semantics.
Ok, fine, in 2015 you'd have dropped us down from minor premiers to mid-table and in so doing killed off any outside hope we had of our first premiership, to play more kids in the hope we were better the next year. In the full knowledge we were facing some key retirements in 2016 as well.
Got it.

Personally, I'll go for the chance of a flag, like everyone else who has actually managed to win one.

 

[Mudd]

Bulldust, Broken leg to Fyfe,injuries ,Luke out and a crucial turnover cost the game. The deluded flogs where the lot who think all games can be won by big margins. Have a look at the results of the top sides this season. Hawthorn have struggled in a lot of their games are on top and are not copping the criticism that Fremantle did. Intelligent footy followers know who the deluded flogs are.

Hawthorn have won the last 3 flags, they have runs on the board. Of course they aren't copping the criticism that we did, wake up!

 

[Proud SJW]

Hawthorn have won the last 3 flags, they have runs on the board. Of course they aren't copping the criticism that we did, wake up!

So media bias is ok with you too?

 

[Mudd]

Semantics.
Ok, fine, in 2015 you'd have dropped us down from minor premiers to mid-table and in so doing killed off any outside hope we had of our first premiership, to play more kids in the hope we were better the next year. In the full knowledge we were facing some key retirements in 2016 as well.
Got it.

Personally, I'll go for the chance of a flag, like everyone else who has actually managed to win one.

zZz We've been over this before, how would dropping the likes of Suban, Mzungu or Deboer last year dropped us down to mid table?

That's all we were asking for last year.

Oh and don't try and pretend that game at the end of last year where we rested 3/4 of the team counts as us playing youth.