The midfield

[daics cousin]

Ok pies supporters now that we have settled on who's at the club and who's not.The only way is to look forward.Is our new group of players able to provide the speed through the midfield that we have been lacking.
Let's say the follwing players are what makes up our midfield rotations.
Thomas,o'bree,swan,johnson,pendelbury,burns,leon davis.Licuria
Goldsac,d...k,reid,Nichols,davies,cox...........Holland (when he gets back)
Didak and medhurst will probably play up forward.I hope i haven't missed anyone...................................Do we have that blend of youth and experience that provides the speed we have been lacking?Your thoughts?

 

[TheClokes]

NO. Our midfield sucks.

 

[Dale Didak #134]

NO. Our midfield sucks.

Someone is positive about the future...

I think that Derek Hine should be knighted, he has really developed Collingwood into a fast, hard running team and the effects will be evident in years to come. Picture a midfield with:

• Thomas
• Pendlebury
• Egan
• Cook
• Iles
• Davies
• Davis

... you get the picture. Our now major concern is our ruck stocks. We will probably use 1 pick in next years draft and 1 in the PSD - only because we can get a ready-made ruckman (like Bryan). We could probably use our other picks on fast, inside mids.

 

[FIGJAM]

Iles and Davies are effectively rookie selections and an outside chance at best.

Davis is a Judkins selection and best suited to a HFF / FP. As is Cook.

Thomas is a gem. Pendles should prove to be good. Eags is a very outside winger. As is D|ck.

Stanners will have to improve outta sight to not be delisted at year's end (harshness noted).

Nicholls, I am a fan, but he's facing an uphill battle.

 

[JOELY]

I'm very interested to see the development of the second year players this season coming up. If a few step up and show a bit more, i think in a few years with the recent draftees we could have a really exiting crop of modern footballers to enjoy.

 

[toommy]

Iles and Davies are effectively rookie selections and an outside chance at best.

Davis is a Judkins selection and best suited to a HFF / FP. As is Cook.

Thomas is a gem. Pendles should prove to be good. Eags is a very outside winger. As is D|ck.

Stanners will have to improve outta sight to not be delisted at year's end (harshness noted).

Nicholls, I am a fan, but he's facing an uphill battle.

you have sacked stanley after one year and Iles and davies as well we are in strife with those duds on our list

 

[Coin_Toss]

Nicholls, I am a fan, but he's facing an uphill battle.

Why, because he is a rookie, that's propostrious. He wears his heart on his sleeve, he does have that touch of class about him and he is hard at it. He's all of 176cm, that is what I like about him. Give him a go before making irrational assumptions.

 

[MarkT]

The midfield, including the ruck, is our real problem. When the better sides beat us this is where they did it. When we lost grand finals this is where we lost them.

At the AGM last night a question was asked about the finals and the reply was pretty much that we examined our short falls and took action. That scares the crap out me because it is either a lie or there really is a perception that our ruck and midfield isn't dramatically below par. I might add that the tone of the response was, as usual, rude and dismissive but that’s another issue.

Look, we can shuffle the cards ad infantum but we don’t have a full deck. The fact is we are at least 2 quick skilled midfielders, that would need to slot at our best 2 or 3, off the better sides and that is ignoring the ruck. Buckley and Burns can provide cameos at best for here on in. Licuria has generally looked shot over the last couple of years. The great strength we had in 2002/3 with these 3 leading our midfield was their contested ball winning and clearance ability. Believe it or not we are worse off in the ruck now and that along with age has reduced strength to a weakness.

Holland is probably out best full time midfield option right now and he’d be second string at most clubs with winning midfields. O’Bree can get the ball at times but he rarely (I can’t think of once actually) plays a really good game when we are being beaten, his kicking is suspect and when he gets it in the open he runs a semi circle and holds up a run because he knows he lacks pace. He is symptomatic of the problems we have in moving and delivering the ball well to the forwards.

We are solely reliant on completely unproven midfielders making rapid and dramatic improvement just to hold our ground and the odds that most of them will do that are remote. This is evident from the draft stats and when they were taken. If the average life a=of a player is less than 4 years then that tells you most players never make it to become regular senior players let alone very good ones.

As far as the up and comers go, Swan looks the goods. H. Shaw looks like he might make a good midfielder but at this point hasn’t actually done it in the midfield. Neither are blistering but they can run and they have hearts. Thomas looks a great prospect and Pendlebury looks to have a lot of promise but also to have a fair bit of development ahead of him. They are second year players though. Johnson has played some good and some indifferent footy in the midfield. At his best he is good but he is yet to play an entire season with consistency. Didak will have to overcome a knee but he has loads of class. That said he still hasn’t proven he is a top end mid. At this point I’d say he is a very good player to have in the midfield mix but not a midfielder you build a midfield around. That’s ok because he also has great value as a forward. After that we have a bunch of kids who may or may not make it at all let alone be the sort of top end talent we need to add to our midfield.

Heading into the first half dozen games this year I would say that in all likelihood we will have one of the poorer midfields in the AFL. O’Bree, Johnson, Swan and Shaw followed by 2 second year players is at least as far away from Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Embley and co as is 7th from 1st. We seem to stack up ok against Sydney who have a much more workmanlike midfield. I put that down to their game plan revolving around shut down and clearance from stoppages while we don’t have the guns for them to focus on shutting down. I don’t think they play their game against us so we can dictate terms to an extent. Whether they would be the case in finals remains to be seen. After Sydney we have been our run and out gunned by the midfields of the other contenders.

We have to face facts. Footy has become midfield dominated and we have a poor midfield. That will define our season. How half a dozen young midfielders develop and the 2007 draft will define the next 5 years.

 

[MarkT]

Why, because he is a rookie, that's propostrious.

Even if that was the only reason it wouldn’t be preposterous. The percentage of rookies that make it is small. Off the top I think we have 4 on our list – Lockyer, Davies, O’Brien and Toovey. That is 1 senior player that is much maligned, 1 fringe player that gets mixed reviews, 1 player that has played a bit of senior football and looks to have some potential and 1 that has not yet been tested at senior level. Outside of the players actually on our list Mal Michael was a great rookie elevation and Betheras was handy but nevertheless delisted. There may be a few more players that escape me at the moment but the success rate of the rookie listed player is significantly less that the already low success rate of the main draft.

That’s not to say the guy can’t play, shouldn’t be given a chance or should be written off but the reality is the odds are stacked against him because he was rookied. That he was rookied means he was overlooked in the draft at least once and generally there would be reasons for that. For every Aaron Davey and Dean Cox there are dozens of never heard of players and David Fannings.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We seem to stack up ok against Sydney who have a much more workmanlike midfield.

We have to face facts. Footy has become midfield dominated and we have a poor midfield. That will define our season. How half a dozen young midfielders develop and the 2007 draft will define the next 5 years.

Anybody see a contradiction in these two comments? We match up well against a team that was a kick away from successive flags, yet we have a poor midfield. How does that work?

The real truth is that we have a good, adequate midfield - -midranking or better - with plenty of potential. We have a big list players in the potential rotation, with for a start Pendlebury, Swan H Shaw Thomas and Egan providing plenty of talent to work with for the future. The senior rotation includes O'Bree Didak Johnson Holland R Shaw, as well as veterans Burns Buckley and Licuria. Thats a good rotation, assisted by the likes of Davies Iles Stanley Nicholls Davis Lockyer and this years draftees.

Our youth is more classy and less "working class" than our senior group, so we have a good mix of grunt and talent. The legspeed we've lacked in the past should become less of an issue over the next two seasons.

We obviously dont have a midfield to match West Coast, although in a way there's is a tad overrated. Take out Judd and Cousins and they are no better than anybody else. Its not as if they have more depth in the midfield than other teams, its just that their best three players are sensational, and they are fed by a gun ruck.

We might not yet match West Coast but potentially we are as good as anybody else.

 

[MarkT]

Anybody see a contradiction in these two comments?

Perhaps. I tend to think some teams just match well on others because one’s strength counters another’s or exposes a weakness.

We might not yet match West Coast but potentially we are as good as anybody else.

Look, that can’t be true. We have had a very solid backline over a number of years. IMO our backs are underrated outside of Collingwood. Our forward line is pretty good. Back and forward we at least match WCE and probably anyone else. In the ruck/midfield we fall down badly. Put 2 of Judd, Kerr and Cousins into our lineup and we’d smash WCE even with the ruck differential. Given the midfield we have we need a top end ruck to give us a fighting chance. Since 2003 there really have been flags for the taking. That is what frustrates me.

 

[Jabso]

Maxwell is a rookie you missed MarkT.

Also Cox and Toovey were promoted but have not played a game yet.

 

[MarkT]

Yep. Maxwell looks handy at worst and quite possibly a lot better. Point stands. The rookie list is hit and hope. I think it is getting better mind you in terms of how clubs use it and the results they get from it.

 

[prO]

The stats indicate that we are an ordinary clearance side - Ranked 13th in the AFL. Having said that, Malthouse has implemented a strategy that saw us as one of the best offensive sides in the league. That was - set the play from the half back line and kick long into the 50. We ranked 1st in Long Kicks... which also compensated for our lack of speed in the midfield. We also ranked 1st for Inside 50's .

My point is quite simple... Theres more than one way to play football. You can whinge and whine about the deficiencies of our midfield... all that will demonstrate is you have absolutely no idea about football. The best thing we can do ( which we HAVE done ) is use the players that we DO have, in a way which leads us in the right direction.

 

[toommy]

Perhaps. I tend to think some teams just match well on others because one’s strength counters another’s or exposes a weakness.Look, that can’t be true. We have had a very solid backline over a number of years. IMO our backs are underrated outside of Collingwood. Our forward line is pretty good. Back and forward we at least match WCE and probably anyone else. In the ruck/midfield we fall down badly. Put 2 of Judd, Kerr and Cousins into our lineup and we’d smash WCE even with the ruck differential. Given the midfield we have we need a top end ruck to give us a fighting chance. Since 2003 there really have been flags for the taking. That is what frustrates me.

all we would need is judd the others dont perform as well when he is not there

 

[Dundalis]

Rubbish. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Embley, Braun, Fletcher, Nicoski, Jones, Stenglein, Selwood, Rosa.

IMO you take out Judd, Kerr and Cousins, and it is still a better midfield than what we have. We like to overrate our own, while underrating the players on other teams, whom aren't the standouts.

Adelaide, West Coast, Bulldogs, Demons, Saints all have a better midfield when they are all fit. If you are looking at youngsters, since we seem to think that it is inevitable that our young mids will step into the hole to make our midfield one of the best, Freo, Hawthorn, Richmond, Geelong IMO all have more gifted young midfield talent within their ranks.

We perhaps have a better combination of midfielders than some of the teams above, but fact remains that for me we are very short on natural talent. Even Thomas and Pendlebury look to me so far to be very good midfield prospects rather than standout ones.

 

[joefootylover]

I reckon our midfeild has plenty of potential;

Davis.....................in the forward pocket, rotating through the middle
Didak Buckley.............on the half forward flanks
Egan Swan Thomas..........the wings and centreman, plenty of toe
Fraser/Bryan..............your athletic skilful ruck with your crash and bash chop out
Heath.....................creative, aggressive
Pendles...................keeping his feet, firing the handpas out from traffic
Lonie Johnson.............sweeping up from half back
Rhyce.....................small backman, tagger, rotate up the ground

Thats looks pretty good to me, plus;

DEPTH (The old guard, no more than 3 to play in the same side):
O'Bree
Holland
Burns
Licuria
Lockyer


Those are the guys that have held up our midfield for the last few years, and then,

PROJECTS:
Medhurst
Davies
Iles
Nicholls
Clarke
Wellingham
D|ck
Goldssack
Macaffer
Cook
Stanley

A bunch of young and not so young projects any of whom could step up and be champions for all we know.

 

[toommy]

Rubbish. Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Embley, Braun, Fletcher, Nicoski, Jones, Stenglein, Selwood, Rosa.

IMO you take out Judd, Kerr and Cousins, and it is still a better midfield than what we have. We like to overrate our own, while underrating the players on other teams, whom aren't the standouts.

Adelaide, West Coast, Bulldogs, Demons, Saints all have a better midfield when they are all fit. If you are looking at youngsters, since we seem to think that it is inevitable that our young mids will step into the hole to make our midfield one of the best, Freo, Hawthorn, Richmond, Geelong IMO all have more gifted young midfield talent within their ranks.

We perhaps have a better combination of midfielders than some of the teams above, but fact remains that for me we are very short on natural talent. Even Thomas and Pendlebury look to me so far to be very good midfield prospects rather than standout ones.

half of those blokes dont even play in the middle jones embley nicoski are flankers

 

[Dundalis]

half of those blokes dont even play in the middle jones embley nicoski are flankers

Only because of Kerr, Judd and Cousins. Those players will rotate through the middle occassionally. At any other side they would be played in midfield, and likely be one of the better mids at that club.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

half of those blokes dont even play in the middle jones embley nicoski are flankers

ROTATION.

 

[toommy]

Only because of Kerr, Judd and Cousins. Those players will rotate through the middle occassionally. At any other side they would be played in midfield, and likely be one of the better mids at that club.

they won the flag buy a point and lost their first final game are they that far ahead of the rest of the comp as you guys seem to think

 

[doppleganger]

they won the flag buy a point and lost their first final game are they that far ahead of the rest of the comp as you guys seem to think

in terms of midfield players they are miles ahead, west coast struggle up forward and downback compared to us

is funny tho, as we beat west coast in melbourne, easily accounted for sydney in sydney and really pushed west over on the big subi ground.....so we weren't too far away in 06

midfield still our major weakness

 

[doppleganger]

O’Bree can get the ball at times but he rarely (I can’t think of once actually) plays a really good game when we are being beaten, his kicking is suspect and when he gets it in the open he runs a semi circle and holds up a run because he knows he lacks pace. He is symptomatic of the problems we have in moving and delivering the ball well to the forwards.

O'Bree is our engine, if sides take him out we simply dont have any players who can win clearances, if O'Bree is winning the ball we win. Yes his finishing is poor, but that isn't his role, he is in the team to win the ball and he is clearly better then anybody on the list and top 15 in the AFL. O'Bree needs help in this department, his clearance and first possession averages compare to L.Ball and Kirk and he uses the ball just as well IMO. Problem is O'Bree is our only ball winner now that Burns, Buckley have slowed down. We need a pendles, Holland, Swan, H.Shaw, Thomas, Egan to turn into players who win their own ball in close coz at the minute shut down the Cheese and we get smashed.

 

[MarkT]

We have a broken down clapped out engine. That’s the problem. We need a new engine and unless we get one we will continue ti append a fortune keeping the car on the road and being late to everything. When O’Bree is one of your main midfielders you have a crap midfield.

As for his role, that is defined buy his skills. If he had good skills and pace his role would be different. The bottom line though is that we don’t win enough games against sides with top end midfields. That itself tells you things have to change.

 

[doppleganger]

We have a broken down clapped out engine. That’s the problem. We need a new engine and unless we get one we will continue ti append a fortune keeping the car on the road and being late to everything. When O’Bree is one of your main midfielders you have a crap midfield.

As for his role, that is defined buy his skills. If he had good skills and pace his role would be different. The bottom line though is that we don’t win enough games against sides with top end midfields. That itself tells you things have to change.

agree, that things need fixing

but obree isn't one of them

he performs his role as our clearance specialist and is top15 in the league, that is good. need another bloke to help him in the in and unders, that is the problem not obree

bet most pies fans would be happy enough to have kirk in our midfield, yet obree had just a good a season, and has similar skill attributes to kirk. problem is kirk has j.bolton, goodes etc to help him out and we have nobody really

obree is a top15 AFL midfielder for the in and under stuff, a very harsh judge if ur not happy with that.