The midfield

[doppleganger]

Look the Dogs were under manned and the side they fielded was young, inexperienced, short and not physically strong and with pace and footskills as weapons they made us look second rate. You work it out. It’s not like it was a bolt from the blue. We struggle to keep up a lot of sides. We smashed Geelong who are also slow. Pace in the midfield, apart from the ruck, has been our achillis heel for years. We are probably getting quicker with the turnover but so is everyone else. To be quick these days you need a couple of really quick mids. That is what recruiters are targeting. Having a quick ruckman doesn’t help much.

You can paint it anyway you like but as far as the midfield goes we have to accept that for 2 to 3 years Buckley, Burns and Licuria have been on the decline and no one has gone close to filling the void. That O’Bree has become a linchpin is entirely symptomatic of our plight.

i agree the dogs made us look second rate.

with the introduction of the newer players we are getting quicker and losing our muscle at the contest, we need to be stronger inside and win the ball first more so we can let our runners actually run.

but yes, it has gone from a strength to a weakness, i agree. but i dont agree that obree is the weakness. simply taking the most dominant midfielder of the last decade out of the midfield will do that, have to be patient and wait for the next group to grow into the vacated roles.

 

[prO]

Ok can we just sum it up as we have finished 13th, 15th and 7th and all we need is another 2 O’Brees and if you are really pessimistic a bit of help for Josh in the ruck.

FMD people we have a midfield that is too slow, poorly skilled and soft. Because our best 2 midfielders are finished as full time mids and our 3rd best has really struggled meaning our fourth or fifth best (I rate Holland ahead of O’Bree) who is out statted by the ball getter at almost every other club, has to be our number 1 mid.

Just what is it that has seen us finish 13th, 15th and 7th? They are the facts that count pro.

We certainly did finish in those places... However there are 21 other players on the field that you can point your finger at There is NO proof or facts that suggests Shane Obree is responsible for the Collingwood Football Club finishing 13th and 15th. And as far as this discussion is concerned - Thats all that matters

 

[doppleganger]

We certainly did finish in those places... However there are 21 other players on the field that you can point your finger at There is NO proof or facts that suggests Shane Obree is responsible for the Collingwood Football Club finishing 13th and 15th. And as far as this discussion is concerned - Thats all that matters

Obree is interesting

i reckon if u asked sydney fans if they were happy with kirk
if u asked saints fans are they happy with ball
if u asked kangas fans are they happy with harris
if u asked freo fans are they happy with bell
if u asked tigers fans if they are happy with s.tuck

all supporters would say yes, they are vital members of their respective teams. well obree produces at the similar level as all these players in 2006, yet for some reason he still cops it from the majority of supporters

doesn't make sense to me

sure all teams would love to have judd and kerr in their midfield but it just isn't going to happen

our three midfield prospects in thomas, pendles & egan are a few years behind the dogs gun youngsters in cooney, ray, griffen, perhaps i am too optimistic but reckon they could work well together in a few years.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Kirk, Ball, Bell, Tuck, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>O'Bree

not sure about Harris

 

[prO]

Obree is interesting

i reckon if u asked sydney fans if they were happy with kirk
if u asked saints fans are they happy with ball
if u asked kangas fans are they happy with harris
if u asked freo fans are they happy with bell
if u asked tigers fans if they are happy with s.tuck

all supporters would say yes, they are vital members of their respective teams. well obree produces at the similar level as all these players in 2006, yet for some reason he still cops it from the majority of supporters

doesn't make sense to me

sure all teams would love to have judd and kerr in their midfield but it just isn't going to happen

our three midfield prospects in thomas, pendles & egan are a few years behind the dogs gun youngsters in cooney, ray, griffen, perhaps i am too optimistic but reckon they could work well together in a few years.

The difference here is - My view on OBree is in no way shape or form... biased. Ive looked at the facts which plain and simply indicate that Obree was a solid contributer in 2006. We cannot delist or trade a player on the basis that years ago he wasn't at the standard that he is today - afterall players need room to develop. Otherwise we should remove Dane Swan from our team entirely as he didn't have great seasons leading up to his brilliant season this year.

Its seems to me that people are frustrated and need to justify the clubs loss, pinpoint a specific player so that deep within their mind - they can feel ok about it... because they "KNOW" where the problem lies. If they "KNOW" where the problem lies - it gives them the sense that they have control over the situation. The irony is - They are in fact in a powerless situation...

I'm not concerned with how other clubs view their players in the slightest. What they think of them is their perogative. I'm only concerned with the development and contribution of players at the Collingwood Football Club...

 

[MarkT]

FWIW I don’t think it is a specific player. O’Bree is one player and we could replace him with Luke Power and we would have probably finished 7th. The point is the collective output of the midfield and how you go about changing that. You can only replace the individuals. More than 1 needs to be replaced but O’Bree is where I would start. He lacks pace and skill and for a ball winner he is the least hard at it we’ve had in that role for a long, long time. His career best season at his age only makes the sell call all the more timely. We rarely get our timing right though.

That said we need a number 1 ruckman as well. I am happy enough forward and back but ruck and midfield we are just nowhere near it.

 

[doppleganger]

Kirk, Ball, Bell, Tuck, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>O'Bree

not sure about Harris

that may be the case, but considering the actual output each player produced in 2006 they are all fairly close. so i cant figure out why the cheese cops it so much from the majority of pies supporters, ie swap kirk into the team instead of obree and would he cop it for spraying his kicks, being slow and be blamed for losses like obree is?? coz if u compare the kirks 06 to obree's they are very similar, and the respective teams were seperated by percentage at the end of the H&A.

kirk, ball, bell, tuck, harris would all be well respected by their teams supporters, yet pies fans call for the cheese to be dropped, blame him for losses, and simply chose to ignore what he brings to the side and instead focus on his flaws.

y?

 

[MarkT]

My last word and I’ll shut up.

The stats are only relative to us, them and all the circumstances. O’Bree had a decent year on the stat sheets. Stats aside, O’Bree had his best year to date. What you have to look at is how you are going to win a premiership and with whom. IMO we need a large injection of pace skill and hardness in our midfield given the pending exits of Burns, Buckley and possibly Licuria. We also need more ball and clearance winning ability. A quality tap ruckman would help but we do need more and better ball winning mids. When you sum up what we lack in the middle O’Bree just doesn’t tick enough boxes. He is actually a smart footballer and that has got him by but it isn’t enough. Similarly Lockyer should go. He is a good kick and we need better skills but he also fails in too many areas.

Josh Fraser is statistically our best ruckman and at a guess in the top 15 in the AFL. That doesn’t make him a good tap ruckman though. We need someone that will make Josh in a relief ruckman.

When you look at our strengths and weaknesses you have to conclude that 13, 15 & 7 means we need something and a good dose of it. Don’t kid yourself that we don’t have a good draw. Injuries pushed us lower than we might otherwise have been and the opposite helped us in 2002 and 2003. In 2006 we have another good run with injuries and a soft draw. We started the season with great fitness and in good health and got away to a flier but it fell apart after being 8 and 3. The games got tougher and fitness relative to the opposition levelled off.

So where are we really?

I think we have a good solid backline that doesn’t often get beaten and a good forward line that generally scores well enough. It remains to be seen what the loss of Tarrant does to us. When we have been smashed we have been slaughtered in the guts. We should have seen this from the game where Brisbane put on 7 first Q goals and then when they smashed us in the 2003 GF. We were terribly slow to react to that exposed weakness and we are still paying the price. For this the finger has to be pointed at the coach. We have been hearing about the deficiencies of our midfield from the opposition for years. While I don’t want us to run anything based on opposition comments we have to face up to our deficiencies. They were right. Everything that was exposed by Brisbane has come home to roost.

 

[toommy]

FWIW I don’t think it is a specific player. O’Bree is one player and we could replace him with Luke Power and we would have probably finished 7th. The point is the collective output of the midfield and how you go about changing that. You can only replace the individuals. More than 1 needs to be replaced but O’Bree is where I would start. He lacks pace and skill and for a ball winner he is the least hard at it we’ve had in that role for a long, long time. His career best season at his age only makes the sell call all the more timely. We rarely get our timing right though.

That said we need a number 1 ruckman as well. I am happy enough forward and back but ruck and midfield we are just nowhere near it.

licca is before Obree to be sacked he was running on the spot last season ,and i would sack lockyer if before him as well.if the only spot for lockyer is the back pocket he should be out gets to many kicked on him

 

[toommy]

My last word and I’ll shut up.

The stats are only relative to us, them and all the circumstances. O’Bree had a decent year on the stat sheets. Stats aside, O’Bree had his best year to date. What you have to look at is how you are going to win a premiership and with whom. IMO we need a large injection of pace skill and hardness in our midfield given the pending exits of Burns, Buckley and possibly Licuria. We also need more ball and clearance winning ability. A quality tap ruckman would help but we do need more and better ball winning mids. When you sum up what we lack in the middle O’Bree just doesn’t tick enough boxes. He is actually a smart footballer and that has got him by but it isn’t enough. Similarly Lockyer should go. He is a good kick and we need better skills but he also fails in too many areas.

Josh Fraser is statistically our best ruckman and at a guess in the top 15 in the AFL. That doesn’t make him a good tap ruckman though. We need someone that will make Josh in a relief ruckman.

When you look at our strengths and weaknesses you have to conclude that 13, 15 & 7 means we need something and a good dose of it. Don’t kid yourself that we don’t have a good draw. Injuries pushed us lower than we might otherwise have been and the opposite helped us in 2002 and 2003. In 2006 we have another good run with injuries and a soft draw. We started the season with great fitness and in good health and got away to a flier but it fell apart after being 8 and 3. The games got tougher and fitness relative to the opposition levelled off.

So where are we really?

I think we have a good solid backline that doesn’t often get beaten and a good forward line that generally scores well enough. It remains to be seen what the loss of Tarrant does to us. When we have been smashed we have been slaughtered in the guts. We should have seen this from the game where Brisbane put on 7 first Q goals and then when they smashed us in the 2003 GF. We were terribly slow to react to that exposed weakness and we are still paying the price. For this the finger has to be pointed at the coach. We have been hearing about the deficiencies of our midfield from the opposition for years. While I don’t want us to run anything based on opposition comments we have to face up to our deficiencies. They were right. Everything that was exposed by Brisbane has come home to roost.

but you would have been first person on the bandwagon when we beat them in the qualifying final that year or were you still bagging the mids

 

[prO]

My last word and I’ll shut up.

The stats are only relative to us, them and all the circumstances. O’Bree had a decent year on the stat sheets. Stats aside, O’Bree had his best year to date. What you have to look at is how you are going to win a premiership and with whom. IMO we need a large injection of pace skill and hardness in our midfield given the pending exits of Burns, Buckley and possibly Licuria. We also need more ball and clearance winning ability. A quality tap ruckman would help but we do need more and better ball winning mids. When you sum up what we lack in the middle O’Bree just doesn’t tick enough boxes. He is actually a smart footballer and that has got him by but it isn’t enough. Similarly Lockyer should go. He is a good kick and we need better skills but he also fails in too many areas.

Josh Fraser is statistically our best ruckman and at a guess in the top 15 in the AFL. That doesn’t make him a good tap ruckman though. We need someone that will make Josh in a relief ruckman.

When you look at our strengths and weaknesses you have to conclude that 13, 15 & 7 means we need something and a good dose of it. Don’t kid yourself that we don’t have a good draw. Injuries pushed us lower than we might otherwise have been and the opposite helped us in 2002 and 2003. In 2006 we have another good run with injuries and a soft draw. We started the season with great fitness and in good health and got away to a flier but it fell apart after being 8 and 3. The games got tougher and fitness relative to the opposition levelled off.

So where are we really?

I think we have a good solid backline that doesn’t often get beaten and a good forward line that generally scores well enough. It remains to be seen what the loss of Tarrant does to us. When we have been smashed we have been slaughtered in the guts. We should have seen this from the game where Brisbane put on 7 first Q goals and then when they smashed us in the 2003 GF. We were terribly slow to react to that exposed weakness and we are still paying the price. For this the finger has to be pointed at the coach. We have been hearing about the deficiencies of our midfield from the opposition for years. While I don’t want us to run anything based on opposition comments we have to face up to our deficiencies. They were right. Everything that was exposed by Brisbane has come home to roost.

You mentioned in one of your previous posts that - the FACT is, Collingwood wont win a flag with Shane Obree as one of its midfielders. Again I ask you - How do you know this? Can you predict the future?

Youve mentioned that Obree has had his best season to date. Does that mean he wont improve in 2007 again? Dane Swan has had his best season to date maybe we should trade him as well. What a wonderful strategy - Delist and trade anyone who contributes to our club! Oh thats right its the best time to sell? I'm not into selling players if they are contributing.

You mentioned bringing in players like Luke Power - Hell why stop there? Why not also get Riewoldt, Judd, Kerr, Ball and Hodge? Again your posts are infused with irony - "Banking on manner from heaven though is not likely to get us a premiership."

Yet you are "banking" on that -
A) A player like Luke Power will get traded to our club
B) That when they are playing for the Pies they will perform just as well as they did at their previous club
C) That player will help us win a flag.

 

[MarkT]

I said it was my last word on the matter so I won't continue the debate and rehash the arguments but I didn't say Power would come at all and I didn't say he'd help us win a flag.

As for the "fact" about O'Bree and us winning a flag that can only be judged in the fullness of time. It was not quite the absolute you want to paint it to win an argument though but I'll still stand by it as reality. These decisions have to be made at every club every year. We culled a lot more than the minimum requirement again because that is exactly the judgment that has to be made on players. No one knows for sure what will or won't happen of course but that's hardly a reason for inaction.

As for Swan v O’Bree, Swan is 22 and O’Bree is 27. O’Bree is a year older than Licuria.
Did Swan surprise me in 2006? Yes.
Do I think O’Bree has upside? No.
Did I in 2000? Yes. In 2000 he was only 21.

 

[njac3]

It is clear that we all love collingwood and the players...

And i am the same, bleed black and white.
But..... Its simple as this.

O'bree is a dud, always has been and always will be.

Lets be fair here, collingwood supporters do overrate their players, but the thing you need to ask yourself is would he get a game in any other AFL side.... Maybe north?

We are not north or carlton, we are collingwood, the guy is crap we just need to wait till the young midfeilders push him out...

 

[prO]

I said it was my last word on the matter so I won't continue the debate and rehash the arguments but I didn't say Power would come at all and I didn't say he'd help us win a flag.

As for the "fact" about O'Bree and us winning a flag that can only be judged in the fullness of time. It was not quite the absolute you want to paint it to win an argument though but I'll still stand by it as reality. These decisions have to be made at every club every year. We culled a lot more than the minimum requirement again because that is exactly the judgment that has to be made on players. No one knows for sure what will or won't happen of course but that's hardly a reason for inaction.

As for Swan v O’Bree, Swan is 22 and O’Bree is 27. O’Bree is a year older than Licuria.
Did Swan surprise me in 2006? Yes.
Do I think O’Bree has upside? No.
Did I in 2000? Yes. In 2000 he was only 21.

Oh so you concede that in FACT it wasn't a FACT that you posted earlier but rather an opinion? Do you think people are going to respect your posts more by claiming them as fact? No need to reply its rhetorical

As for Luke Power....If you're not "banking" on Luke Power coming to the club, you most certainly are "banking" on the Pies recruiting midfielders who have speed or are highly skilled. The point being its rather ironic that you feel that way

 

[Coin_Toss]

As for Swan v O’Bree, Swan is 22 and O’Bree is 27. O’Bree is a year older than Licuria.
Did Swan surprise me in 2006? Yes.
Do I think O’Bree has upside? No.
Did I in 2000? Yes. In 2000 he was only 21.

In fact, Licuria is 28, so that makes O'Bree a year younger.

O'Bree isn't a "dud" by any means. His clearance work is the best in the side. He really does work his butt off and he has done such a good job to improve his consistency with his efforts in all areas. He is not highly skilled - agreed - but you can't question his commitment to the contest ie. chases players down. Last but not least - he is also a team player.

 

[toommy]

It is clear that we all love collingwood and the players...

And i am the same, bleed black and white.
But..... Its simple as this.

O'bree is a dud, always has been and always will be.

Lets be fair here, collingwood supporters do overrate their players, but the thing you need to ask yourself is would he get a game in any other AFL side.... Maybe north?

We are not north or carlton, we are collingwood, the guy is crap we just need to wait till the young midfeilders push him out...

yes but i don't know any essendon carlton or richmond supporters that bag the pies morre than mark t does

 

[prO]

In fact, Licuria is 28, so that makes O'Bree a year younger.

Afterall, MarkT you exemplify the word - mistake

....

 

[joefootylover]

O'Bree is probably played to close to his potential in 06 and from about half way through the season started getting tagged as a result. He is on the record as saying that shaking a tag is one of the key areas he will be working on with the coaching staff over the preseason, lets hope he learns a trick or two and we see some incremental improvement in 07.
If Dane Swan can step up and start winning a few more clearences and become our number 1 first possesion mid then great, O' Bree will become the number two guy and between them they can feed off to anyone fast, silky or long kicking, ala Johnson, Rhyce, Lonie, Egan, Thomas, Dids, etc etc.
I also still hold out high hopes for Heath Shaw and Pendlebury, Pendlebury especially basically went from lying in a sick bed with Galandular Fever to playing as a genuine midfielder in an AFL side and doing it well. His kicking lacked penetration and he didn't have the stamina to stay the whole day in the guts, but given that he had never done an AFL preseason and had had a really nasty disease, you can't hold it against him, I am hopeful that with a proper pre-season, fully recovered from fever, with another year of natrual development in his body he could be a starting midfeilder for us and do a great job, I see him as being in between outside and inside (although I don't really like those terms) he is the guy I can see accepting the scooped handball from the guy on hands and knees in the pack and being able to keep his feets, wriggle out of the tackle and feed out the handball to the running players, he has that great awarness and vision. Heath may be another who like O'Bree can go in and get the ball for us, and he has skills to boot!

 

[doppleganger]

The stats are only relative to us, them and all the circumstances. O’Bree had a decent year on the stat sheets. Stats aside, O’Bree had his best year to date. What you have to look at is how you are going to win a premiership and with whom. IMO we need a large injection of pace skill and hardness in our midfield given the pending exits of Burns, Buckley and possibly Licuria. We also need more ball and clearance winning ability. A quality tap ruckman would help but we do need more and better ball winning mids. When you sum up what we lack in the middle O’Bree just doesn’t tick enough boxes. He is actually a smart footballer and that has got him by but it isn’t enough. Similarly Lockyer should go. He is a good kick and we need better skills but he also fails in too many areas.

Lockyer since coming back from his knee reco isn't a safe a kick anymore, he too misses targets. The injection of pace and skill will come from h.shaw, pendles, egan, thomas, swan.....but we need ball winners! Obree gives us that.

Josh Fraser is statistically our best ruckman and at a guess in the top 15 in the AFL. That doesn’t make him a good tap ruckman though. We need someone that will make Josh in a relief ruckman.

Josh is interesting, the start to his career is better then jeff white, it took white til he was 24-25 before he started dominating, well josh has reached that age now, perhaps he may begin to blossom even further, but we do need more quality options in the ruck.

When you look at our strengths and weaknesses you have to conclude that 13, 15 & 7 means we need something and a good dose of it.

reckon, that egan, t.cloke, rusling, pendles, thomas, reid, brown, dawes may be decent compensation for those finishes. can potentially build a side around those blokes in the future.

Don’t kid yourself that we don’t have a good draw. Injuries pushed us lower than we might otherwise have been and the opposite helped us in 2002 and 2003. In 2006 we have another good run with injuries and a soft draw. We started the season with great fitness and in good health and got away to a flier but it fell apart after being 8 and 3. The games got tougher and fitness relative to the opposition levelled off.

or we were figured out, not surpirsingly it was melbourne who came out and targetted obree, pretty sure they played j.mcdonald on him and we had nobody to win the ball and were smashed, combine that with swan & holland going down, and we couldn't cope.

So where are we really?

midway through a pre-season

I think we have a good solid backline that doesn’t often get beaten and a good forward line that generally scores well enough. It remains to be seen what the loss of Tarrant does to us. When we have been smashed we have been slaughtered in the guts. We should have seen this from the game where Brisbane put on 7 first Q goals and then when they smashed us in the 2003 GF. We were terribly slow to react to that exposed weakness and we are still paying the price. For this the finger has to be pointed at the coach. We have been hearing about the deficiencies of our midfield from the opposition for years. While I don’t want us to run anything based on opposition comments we have to face up to our deficiencies. They were right. Everything that was exposed by Brisbane has come home to roost.

everything exposed by brisbane involved having Buckley & Burns as our main duo in the middle, this is no longer the case.

The team is changing, it isn't the same as the team that was better then everybody bar brisbane in 02-03, relies on different players now. Ant the exception, he is still vital to our success.

 

[MarkT]

In fact, Licuria is 28, so that makes O'Bree a year younger.

Yes, sorry I typed it the wrong way around.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The team is changing, it isn't the same as the team that was better then everybody bar brisbane in 02-03, relies on different players now. Ant the exception, he is still vital to our success.

The Wiilamstown players of 2007 will be unrecognisable from two years ago. Hopefully we now have a list of 35 or so successful AFL players instead of about 25. Initially thats where the improvement will come from - forr example not having the likes of Hall and Walker taking up space, and being replaced by Brown and Reid.

 

[MarkT]

Oh so you concede that in FACT it wasn't a FACT that you posted earlier but rather an opinion? Do you think people are going to respect your posts more by claiming them as fact? No need to reply its rhetorical

In my opinion it will prove to be a fact unfortunately but we can’t know for sure until O’Bree retires. Of course it is opinion as is 99.99% of what is discussed on here. I am actually willing to take bets if you like. How much will you punt on O’Bree playing in a flag at Collingwood? What odds would you need to take a bet? You can rattle off all the semantic arguments you like but it won’t change a single fact.

As for Luke Power....If you're not "banking" on Luke Power coming to the club, you most certainly are "banking" on the Pies recruiting midfielders who have speed or are highly skilled. The point being its rather ironic that you feel that way

What is your point? I am not banking on anything at all. In my opinion we need to recruit a couple of quick skilled midfielders as well as a ruckman a win a flag in the near future. You can disagree with that but I firmly believe it and what I saw last season confirmed it. I am not banking on that though. In fact I firmly believe it will not happen. This is one of main issues with the way the club is run. We don't trade well and we don't address list deficiencies well enough. The facts lie in the results. You can be as non-demanding of Collingwood as you please and you can take your place with all the other back slappers. Frankly I am sick of Collingwood being mediocre ad I am over the board flying the financial flag to deflect from their failings.

 

[prO]

In my opinion it will prove to be a fact unfortunately but we can’t know for sure until O’Bree retires. Of course it is opinion as is 99.99% of what is discussed on here. I am actually willing to take bets if you like. How much will you punt on O’Bree playing in a flag at Collingwood?

You seem to perpetuate the stereotype that Collingwood supporters have a low IQ. Prove what to be fact? That having Shane Obree as one of our midfielders is the cause for the Collingwood Football Club NOT winning a flag?

How exactly will that be proved to be true? Please enlighten me ( if thats possible ) Not winning a flag, with Shane Obree in the team proves absolutely nothing.

What is your point? I am not banking on anything at all. In my opinion we need to recruit a couple of quick skilled midfielders as well as a ruckman a win a flag in the near future. You can disagree with that but I firmly believe it and what I saw last season confirmed it. I am not banking on that though. In fact I firmly believe it will not happen. This is one of main issues with the way the club is run. We don't trade well and we don't address list deficiencies well enough. The facts lie in the results. You can be as non-demanding of Collingwood as you please and you can take your place with all the other back slappers. Frankly I am sick of Collingwood being mediocre ad I am over the board flying the financial flag to deflect from their failings.

My point is quite simple. You say you're a Collingwood supporter - Yet you say you aren't banking on anything at all? I dunno about you... As a Collingwood supporter I'm hoping we win a few flags. And I'm hoping Shane Obree maintains and improves his form and stays at our club.

Demanding something will happen and hoping for it to happen are no different because you are actually HOPING they will take your DEMANDS seriously.
Do you see the irony champ?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

This thread is becoming as pointless and directionless as a Shane O'Bree left foot kick.

 

[MarkT]

Agree Timmy.