The Official Aid Package (merged thread)

[JeffDunne]

Where's the rest of the money? I thought we were getting $50 million no strings attached

$2mil and we've only just started.

Be patient, and I did say over 10 years.

 

[mediumsizered]

Re: The Official Aid Package

Did you bother to read my post that you quoted?

Underwriting debt and cash handouts are two different things.

The so-called grant of $500k is what I'd call an unconditional handout. And before you start, yes I am aware having an ex club champion oversee you're spending of it is one of the "conditions" - if making sure you're not totally incompetent is a "condition".

I guess Calvin Klein had you in mind when he was developing his fragrance 'Obsession For Men'.

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: The Official Aid Package

They don't?
I would have thought using profits to retire debt is not that uncommon.

as I suspected.

have you ever tried to purchase something with some profit? because you'll find 1) cash is not the same as profit 2) any increase or decrease in that debt financing will not have an impact on their P&L.

there is no relationship in the way you're trying to import.

as an example, why I am explaining I am not sure, just say they sold something, anything. Grandstand, car park, granny's pacemaker whatever. it's in the their books at $1mio, they sell it for $800k in a quick and dodgy sale to fat tony down the pub. they'll actually book a 200k loss to the P&L but can use the 800k cash to retire the debt.

the double entry becomes Cash +1000k Loss -200K Debt -800k

looking at that they made a 200k loss and still retired 800k in debt.

there are a thousand permutations like it. you cannot look at their annual P&L statements for guidance on their ability to retire debt or enter into capital arrangements. It is not informative to say they made a loss, therefore they cannot have paid off $5mio in debt.

However, if you want to spend the time looking at the balance sheet, and at the comparatives with the immediate prior year - the whole story should be fairly easily told there.

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: The Official Aid Package

Why don't you explain it to JD? I've gotta see this

easy to see which one of you is chester and which one is spike

 

[medusala]

Doesn't the CBF count as assistance from the AFL? I get it, the Footscray Football Club have never said nasty things about the Saints so they're ok. Likewise the Melbourne and North Melbourne Football Clubs. Why is it ok for them to get ongoing assistance from the AFL and the Carlton Football Club not be entitled as well.

Why is it the CBF (and even a couple of non CBF) clubs are forced to sell home games but the biggest financial delinquent doesnt?

 

[The Fireman]

Re: The Official Aid Package

easy to see which one of you is chester and which one is spike

The role reversal at the end muddies the water a little doesn't it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Re: The Official Aid Package

You tell me.

I think the logic went something like . . . if you sign at the MCG you don't need to be compensated . . . if you sign at TD you need to be. I think that means that TD was a bad deal for the club or the AFL were making sure their prearranged with Collo went ahead. Either way it appears that smart ecconomics weren't the deciding factor so it's a little hard to know if the compensation was justified or what it was used for.

Conditional yes, but it was conditional on you making the decision you were always going to make.

Not necessarily a decision we were always going to make. We were mindful that our agreement to play games at PP was coming to an end soon and that the AFL wanted us to move. We looked at the feasibility of staying at PP and we looked at the G as a preferred option if we did move. Dome or G we needed money to pay out the contracts. The AFL held us over a barrell by offering us the incentive to choose the Dome because ultimately they got something out of it. The same offer did not apply to the G. If there was no money on offer, I feel certain we would have gone to the G or remained at PP for a while longer. As it was, we negotiated a 6/5 home game split between the Dome and the G, which was a good effort considering the AFL wanted us at the Dome.

An AFL guarantee on your debts for a start. Without it, you'd probably be extinct.

No, that's a promised handout should we fail. It's not a handout upfront. We haven't failed ... yet.

And who do you mean by "we"? Clearly we aren't talking the officials of the club.

I think the 5 home games at the G when the money given by the AFL was for the Dome tells a different story. Let's not let finances and desires get confused.

I need a new car - want to go guarantor?

I suspect the answer is no - especially considering you don't know my capacity to repay the debt.

Exactly the position the AFL were in when they went guarantor for Carlton. In my eyes that's as unconditional a handout a club can receive.

A lot of things exist in your eyes. Fact is that the AFL don't pay a cent on our behalf from that underwriting unless we fail to pay back our debts. If we have been given a handout, what is it if we actually do pay back all of our debt? A repayment to the AFL? Afraid not, only the new loan qualifies. All the AFL did by underwriting us is have faith in our ability to bounce back AND look after their OWN interests.

You want credit for begging?

Well done.

Yep, choosing not to get a freebie in the CBF is begging. This loan shows that we do have some pride and badly want to stand on our own two feet. We have tried hard not to get charity and an interest free loan is a lot better than a straight out donation. Everyone assumed that the ongoing talks the AFL was having with Carlton was a way to strategise how to gloss over a massive unconditional donation. Now we know that it went on so long because Carlton were trying to maintain their pride while the AFL were being accountable to their other shareholders.

Nicely done all round by the looks of it. Not to mention that you yourself have wildly speculated and made unfounded assumptions in the past about this issue and have come up short of the mark.

Nice to see the 3 Charmed ones on the same page of the same thread, high fiving and waving pom poms like sorority sisters. Another win by the Saints this week apparently.

A lot of words, a lot of gloating, a lot of arrogance, but not too much in the way of objectivity. <gasp, say it aint so>

 

[Teagueeee15]

Why is it the CBF (and even a couple of non CBF) clubs are forced to sell home games but the biggest financial delinquent doesnt?

First of all nobody holds up a knife to these clubs and forces them to play games interstate, the clubs choose too for whatever reason.Hawthorn are supposed to be an asset rich club yet played a home game at carrara and two at Tassie.Did the AFL force them too? Also AD said on 3AW that the AFL would not have allowed Carlton to sell games interstate even if they wanted too. But i cannot remember his reasons.

 

[mediumsizered]

Why is it the CBF (and even a couple of non CBF) clubs are forced to sell home games but the biggest financial delinquent doesnt?

Ask the AFL. Don't blame the Carlton Football Club or its supporters. While not knowing what goes on at AFL House, I suspect the Carlton Football Club brand still has significant value in the Victorian football marketplace.

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: The Official Aid Package

as I suspected.

have you ever tried to purchase something with some profit? because you'll find 1) cash is not the same as profit 2) any increase or decrease in that debt financing will not have an impact on their P&L.

there is no relationship in the way you're trying to import.

as an example, why I am explaining I am not sure, just say they sold something, anything. Grandstand, car park, granny's pacemaker whatever. it's in the their books at $1mio, they sell it for $800k in a quick and dodgy sale to fat tony down the pub. they'll actually book a 200k loss to the P&L but can use the 800k cash to retire the debt.

the double entry becomes Cash +1000k Loss -200K Debt -800k

looking at that they made a 200k loss and still retired 800k in debt.

there are a thousand permutations like it. you cannot look at their annual P&L statements for guidance on their ability to retire debt or enter into capital arrangements. It is not informative to say they made a loss, therefore they cannot have paid off $5mio in debt.

However, if you want to spend the time looking at the balance sheet, and at the comparatives with the immediate prior year - the whole story should be fairly easily told there.

I understand what you are saying (and I understood when you first made the point) but it still doesn't answer my original question on how they retired the debt. I'm not disputing that they retired it, I'm asking how. As far as I know, they haven't been offloading any assets of late.

Here's the annual report - knock yourself out, I think the answer's pretty obvious.

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: The Official Aid Package

Yep, choosing not to get a freebie in the CBF is begging.

LOL - I was wondering when the spin would start.

You chose not to dip into the CBF? LMFAO.

This loan shows that we do have some pride and badly want to stand on our own two feet.

Priceless!

We have tried hard not to get charity and an interest free loan is a lot better than a straight out donation.

And the $500K is for . . . ?

I wish someone would give me a non charitable interest free loan too.

Everyone assumed that the ongoing talks the AFL was having with Carlton was a way to strategise how to gloss over a massive unconditional donation. Now we know that it went on so long because Carlton were trying to maintain their pride while the AFL were being accountable to their other shareholders.

More gold.

Nicely done all round by the looks of it. Not to mention that you yourself have wildly speculated and made unfounded assumptions in the past about this issue and have come up short of the mark.

Spin that wheel!!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Why is it the CBF (and even a couple of non CBF) clubs are forced to sell home games but the biggest financial delinquent doesnt?

A) We sold all of our home games to the Dome and the G.
B) Even discounting that, I don't know that the AFL foregoing interest on $1.5m for two years comes close to us dipping into the CBF.

People are being silly now. Laughing that we are penniless, begrudging us access to the CBF, condemning an AFL bailout and now whinging about an interest free loan that we have to pay back. Fair dinkum, if the AFL validated our parking, people would find something to complain about.

 

[JeffDunne]

No ODN, people want Carlton to do something about Carlton's problems.

Is that too much to ask?

 

[The Fireman]

No ODN, people want Carlton to do something about Carlton's problems.

Is that too much to ask?

There is nobody left at Carlton to do anything about it, the smart ones jumped ship along with their supporters.

 

[mediumsizered]

Re: The Official Aid Package

LOL - I
And the $500K is for . . . ?

For maintenance of the ground that the AFL and its member clubs derive benefit from during the pre-season at no cost. In addition to the benefit that the National Under 18 competition derives from using the ground at no cost. The ground itself is maintained to the elite standard for the use of so many, for no return. It is only fair that some sort of remuneration be received for making this facility available to the AFL and its member clubs.

 

[The Fireman]

Re: The Official Aid Package

For maintenance of the ground that the AFL and its member clubs derive benefit from during the pre-season at no cost. In addition to the benefit that the National Under 18 competition derives from using the ground at no cost. The ground itself is maintained to the elite standard for the use of so many, for no return. It is only fair that some sort of remuneration be received for making this facility available to the AFL and its member clubs.

It is a money drain, should be sold by the AFL

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Re: The Official Aid Package

LOL - I was wondering when the spin would start.

You chose not to dip into the CBF? LMFAO.

The club has stated on many occasions that it would look at other options before applying for the CBF. We worked one out. Noticed you didn't argue the point though.

Priceless!

Sorry, is there a point there?

And the $500K is for . . . ?

Maintaining a ground that we use, the umpires use, the VFL uses. Can't you read?

I wish someone would give me a non charitable interest free loan too.

AFL looking after its interest. You see, over a century of competition, Carlton more than did their part in helping the game rake in the dollars. Nice to see some of the brownie points we earned being cashed in. The AFL recognise that Carlton are a valuable commodity and the most likely of any cash strapped clubs to bounce back and repay their faith in spades. Sound business decision.

More gold.

Again, no debate on your part. All **** and wind JD.

Spin that wheel!!

Rattle that bridge.

 

[Rob]

Re: The Official Aid Package

as I suspected.

have you ever tried to purchase something with some profit? because you'll find 1) cash is not the same as profit 2) any increase or decrease in that debt financing will not have an impact on their P&L.

there is no relationship in the way you're trying to import.

as an example, why I am explaining I am not sure, just say they sold something, anything. Grandstand, car park, granny's pacemaker whatever. it's in the their books at $1mio, they sell it for $800k in a quick and dodgy sale to fat tony down the pub. they'll actually book a 200k loss to the P&L but can use the 800k cash to retire the debt.

the double entry becomes Cash +1000k Loss -200K Debt -800k

looking at that they made a 200k loss and still retired 800k in debt.

there are a thousand permutations like it. you cannot look at their annual P&L statements for guidance on their ability to retire debt or enter into capital arrangements. It is not informative to say they made a loss, therefore they cannot have paid off $5mio in debt.

However, if you want to spend the time looking at the balance sheet, and at the comparatives with the immediate prior year - the whole story should be fairly easily told there.

There are 2 major contributing factors to see how a footy club can pay off big debts. The first is make big profits. Bzzt. Obviously not happening here. The second is to sell assets. What assets did they have to sell?
Being a footy club, they can't raise capital by issuing shares because they're not a company limited by shares.

My guess is they've siphoned some of their debt off to the social club - i.e the social club has essentially inherited the princes park lease along with all associated debts. Notice how they've got well over $2m owing from the social club? The football club looks to be funding the social club's debts.
Note the wording in the afl.com report - they've 'trimmed their debt', not paid it off.
Only an educated guess mind you based on their financials.

 

[MeeSo]

$2mil and we've only just started.

Be patient, and I did say over 10 years.

That's good to know. I was getting worried that all the talk of $50mil rescue packages was just exaggeration.

 

[mediumsizered]

Re: The Official Aid Package

It is a money drain, should be sold by the AFL

Doesn't belong to the AFL or the Carlton Football Club, therefore may be a touch difficult for the AFL to sell. Would make for an interesting legal battle and line the pockets of plenty of lawyers, but thanks for the suggestion anyway.

 

[Moss Rocket]

Exciting times Parrot may say! Whilst reducing our debt (we are becoming fiscal wizards) by a wopping 5 large, it seems we are now being helped a little to restore this great club to its rightful throne. The money we have made for the AFL and all the weaker clubs over the past decades surely makes us more than deserving of a little help in our cyclical time of need. No need for the usual Saint suspects to envy us yet again. Just jump back on your Minibus/Thomas and ride the wave to spoon number 27. I'm sure it is a lot closer than flag number 2.
Go Blues!

 

[MeeSo]

No ODN, people want Carlton to do something about Carlton's problems.

Is that too much to ask?

What do you suggest we do? It's quite obvious that you'll complain about whatever Carlton does so how about offering some alternatives.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

No ODN, people want Carlton to do something about Carlton's problems.

Is that too much to ask?

What do you call the Heroes Stand drive? Nice earner there. Like everyone else they also do their guernsey sponsorships, their raffles, numerous functions and merchandising. They have worked hard to fill up their sponsorship books again too. We have wiped $5m from our debt. We are shying away from monster player contracts.

Honestly, what do you want them to do? I get my mailbox bombarded with fundraising items, more than ever before.

We are walking a tightrope of low finances and low memberships, trying not to do something for short term gain that produces long term pain.

The fact is they have a short term cashflow problem. They obviously think they can get on top of the debt in time but we have a hump to get over first.

You don't want us to do what other clubs have done as such, you want us to continue to suffer to appease the suffering others have gone through. It's not about fiscal responsibility and an objective opinion, it's all about spite and revenge. As I keep reading on this site 'let the bastards rot'. Nothing more and nothing less. It's okay, I get it. I understand it. It's only football and tribal warfare and hatred is a part of what created that mystical tribal warfare. I'm fine with it. Just don't **** in a bottle and tell me it's lemonade.

 

[Corrosion]

Exciting times Parrot may say! Whilst reducing our debt (we are becoming fiscal wizards) by a wopping 5 large, it seems we are now being helped a little to restore this great club to its rightful throne. The money we have made for the AFL and all the weaker clubs over the past decades surely makes us more than deserving of a little help in our cyclical time of need. No need for the usual Saint suspects to envy us yet again. Just jump back on your Minibus/Thomas and ride the wave to spoon number 27. I'm sure it is a lot closer than flag number 2.
Go Blues!

To spoon number 28 more like it

And the Saints obsession squad need to give up. JD, you're a good poster, but it when it comes to talking about Carlton, and in particular, this situation, you know nothing. Now, please, run along back to the Saints board, and talk about something that worries your team.

 

[JeffDunne]

Re: The Official Aid Package

There are 2 major contributing factors to see how a footy club can pay off big debts. The first is make big profits. Bzzt. Obviously not happening here. The second is to sell assets. What assets did they have to sell?
Being a footy club, they can't raise capital by issuing shares because they're not a company limited by shares.

My guess is they've siphoned some of their debt off to the social club - i.e the social club has essentially inherited the princes park lease along with all associated debts. Notice how they've got well over $2m owing from the social club? The football club looks to be funding the social club's debts.
Note the wording in the afl.com report - they've 'trimmed their debt', not paid it off.
Only an educated guess mind you based on their financials.

Interesting isn't it? Even more so when the football club increased the amount of administration charges to the C&SC during 2005 (when the club only played one game at the ground).

Interesting also that the football club are of the belief that the C&SC can repay the debt despite the fact the C&SC is close to being wound up (if you beleive the press).

The auditors comments are also interesting.