The Post Mortem

[DaVe86]

I probably need to watch the tape again, but don't think I can bring myself to watch that second half.

But let's just keep it in perspective. Remember in our premiership year we lost early to Geelong and St.Kilda...but it served as a catalyst to anlayse where we were at and where we needed to improve.

I'm not concerned about a loss, and prefer it early in the year as opposed to late leading into finals.

These are the points I take out of this game.

1. I think we saw the limitation of our depth yesterday. We have beaten 2 good sides...but ultimately sides that are now 0-3. If we think we are going to knock off the top 4 sides with a number of key players out or short of match fitness then we are wrong.

I know Hawthorn were missing Sewell...but the absence of Ball and Beams more than makes up for that loss. Thomas was short of a gallop and we need guys like Krakouer, Didak and Fasolo in there as well.

I think guys like Sinclair, Marty, Russell and Frost will ultimately make way long term. Dwyer is holding his spot at the moment.

Our depth is amazing, and we can beat most teams despite missing a lot of players. But you need your best team out there to beat Hawthorn.


2. We are really lacking an in and under in the absence of Beams and Ball. I think Josh Thomas should be in there in the interim. I just can't wait for Beams and Ball to return though. I think we were smashed in the last quarter against the Roos, then most of the game against Carlton (albeit with no ruckman) and the Hawks got on top when it counted yesterday as well.


3. The forward line needs its potency back. Hawthorn beat us because they have 10 guys who kick goals. Two games in a row against Hawthorn we have relied on Trav to kick our score, along with a small forward (krakouer or elliott). Sinclair and Goldsack just aren't offering scoreboard value. I think without Macaffer, we probably need a guy like Jackson Paine to help Cloke out. Otherwise Macaffer needs to be in there. We also need Didak and Krakouer. We are at our best when we have multiple goal-kicking options. Fasolo looked very sharp which was pleasing and he will step it up next week.

4. I like Frost, but he won't be needed against Richmond unless Reid does not pull up. Tigers only have 2 key talls. However, we do need to be cautious of McGuane...and maybe Goldsack can go back to play this role in the absence of Maxwell. I don't think Goldsack is looking up to it up forward.


5. Ben Johnson has been a bit of a scapegoat, but he returned to form yesterday and may be our best small defender. It was a great job on Cyril. Cyril did blow it apart in the last, but he had to move into the centre to do it and also the game was pretty much done and dusted by this stage.


6. The scoreline ultimately flattered the Hawks a bit. We were good for 2 and a bit quarters.



Can we beat the Hawks?

I think we can. They are definitely not unbeatable as Sydney and Geelong have shown.

The thing about the Hawks is that they typically don't play 4 quarters and they are also suspect in close games. They only played a half against Geelong, they had flat spots against West Coast and were hot and cold in last years GF. Yesterday, we were on top for about a half as well.

The trick is to hang with them when they make their move. We just seem to let them blow us away.

The positive is that our good players seem to find the ball against them...and Cloke has their measure as well. We just need a better spread of goal-kickers, and need to be better with our intensity. I think we need to make it more a scrap as well and try and limit the Hawks effectiveness. We seemed to be better in the rain which tells me that we would probably be better if we bottled the game up.


How to approach the Tigers

The Tigers are a much improved team...but so far have beaten nobody. It is as big a test for them as it is us.

They have the best 3 onballers going around in Deledio, Cotchin and Martin. All kick goals as well. So we need to really tighten up on these guys.

Riewoldt is also in pretty good form, as is McGuane and Vickery. But they don't have a lot of real quality smalls. Nahas and Edwardes are obviously dangerous but I think we can shut them down. Jake King can also be a handful. But not the same quality as Garlett or Rioli for example.

Their defence has improved out of sight, but still can be exposed by monsters. THey won't be able to contain a big spread of goal-kickers so I do advocate the return of Krakouer and Didak.

As I said, if Beams isn't available then I'd like to see Josh Thomas come in to add a bit of grunt to our stoppages.

Richmond have great ball movement and are fantastic if they get momentum.

 

[SuperSub17]

Great summing up, I watched the first half again last night and couldn't help but feel that we should have been about three goals up at half time. We smashed them in the first quarter and a half, and if the game had continued that way, it would have played out pretty similar to the H&A game in 2011 IMO. We were able to force turnovers and punish them on the counterattack, which is something we really couldn't do in two of the three games against them last year.

It reminded me of the first game against Geelong in 2010, a tight arm wrestle in the first half, we made the running but then they pulled away towards the end of the third quarter and ran all over us in the last. Hopefully we learn from this just as much as we did then.

 

[4#Didak#4]

Hard to get the head around this game and not focus on that second half.

The first half was very good. We had great intensity around the ball and I think our ball movement was the best I have seen for some time with those linking handballs and quick movement - loved it.

Our biggest problem (and has been for some time now) is converting the inside 50 opportunities we produce into goals. Against quality opposition it is a must. We simply messed up way to many chances in the forward 50 in the first quarter & a half. Our problem is the lack of natural goal kickers. The Hawls are jam packed full of natural forwards. We are full of make shift & unatural forwards who make kciking goals very much hard work. Apart from Elliot who looks like a finisher the rest struggle. I would really like to see some class and goal kicking forwards (how about that for a concept!) injected. Send Goldy back, remove Sinclair and get two of Didak, Krak & Fasolo in to our forward line ASAP.

We had every chance to be 5 goals up late in the second and if we shut up shop we would have been in a good position. Instead we entered into a shoot out, that was always going to end badly.

I think our defense - despite the scoreboard - did really well. The damage was created by their midfield & half forward line. The ball was coming in so prolifcially & quickly it is harsh to criticise our key defenders. Brown spanked Roughy who was gifted a goal by some awful umpiring. Reid held Franklin who only got away when we turned the ball over and gave Franklin room to run. No one will stop Franklin in that situation.

There is no shying away from the fact our midfield got destroyed, despite solid games from Pendles and Swan. Like last week, to win we needed big step ups from the support cast of O'Brien, Sidey, Blair and Daisy. Unlike last week it wasn't there at all. It highlighted how desperately we will need Beams & Ball back if we are to be top 4. These two are elite at the clearances, which is where we got spanked - especially around the ground. Once they found space we had no answer for their pace (like last week) in Anderson, Hill, Cyril, Smith etc.

The key to beating Collingwood is to win the ball at the coal face and get it to runners in space. Once its out we will be scored against. Geelong does this, Hawthorn does this, Carlton (Ratten) did this and Sydney did in the final last year as well. They all have the right mix with great inside players and damaging outside quick players. The solution: don't get beaten at the coal face - which with out full midfield is possible and make the most of opportuinites. If we get beaten at the coal face we probably will lose against sides with forward lines of the ilk of the Hawks.

 

[sr36]

Got to get more organised around the packs. The best teams have a systemaround stoppages whereby they have a couple of blokes who keep their width at a stoppage and their teamates know where they are and use them when the ball falls to their advantage. We don't do anything of the sort. We rely on individual efforts or a string of high risk 1 metre handballs to blokes in the thick of the traffic.

Got to provide a contest when the ball is hacked forward from a stoppage. The default play for all teams at centre bounces is to get the ball and hack it forward to Chf about 45-50 metres out from goal. Whenever we do this we invariably have Sinclair alone against 3 defenders. This infuriates the hell out of me.

Got to develop a better system of clearing the ball from defence - once again too many 1 metre handballs to blokes in the middle of congestion.

I don't think our issue is playing personnel. I think that we have coaching issues.

 

[dubber]

I don't think our issue is playing personnel. I think that we have coaching issues.

whoa, big call there. We won against two very good midfields in North & Carlton so i don't know what issues you are referring to.
One game, lets move on before making such big statements.

 

[Staki_13]

Got to get more organised around the packs. The best teams have a systemaround stoppages whereby they have a couple of blokes who keep their width at a stoppage and their teamates know where they are and use them when the ball falls to their advantage. We don't do anything of the sort. We rely on individual efforts or a string of high risk 1 metre handballs to blokes in the thick of the traffic.

Got to provide a contest when the ball is hacked forward from a stoppage. The default play for all teams at centre bounces is to get the ball and hack it forward to Chf about 45-50 metres out from goal. Whenever we do this we invariably have Sinclair alone against 3 defenders. This infuriates the hell out of me.

Got to develop a better system of clearing the ball from defence - once again too many 1 metre handballs to blokes in the middle of congestion.

I don't think our issue is playing personnel. I think that we have coaching issues.

I agree, our ball movement from stoppages is ineffective. I think we are too attacking from stoppages with players not working defensively in this area. Also, our ball movement going forward is too rigid, not enough movement off the ball. The pressure has dropped off in the forward fifty the last two weeks as well. We are missing Ball and Beams who will be huge for the midfield.

 

[entourage]

whoa, big call there. We won against two very good midfields in North & Carlton so i don't know what issues you are referring to.
One game, lets move on before making such big statements.

Agree. We made a prelim in the first year of the current coaching panel being together. We have won 2/3 games so far this year, none of which are easy beats, with far from a full-strenth side.
I place no blame on the coaching for this game.

 

[Chilli Con Incarnate]

I agree with J Thomas in, we need to win more clearances and by all accounts this is his area.

 

[legendstatus]

I agree with most comments on this, i think u do need to blame the coaches for this one at least. I made a comment on another thread that when we play Dorks its like ground hog day, they all turn out the same way. where will got smacked was close in / clearances, they set up to be ready for that, i have to admit I reckon we go better if it was dry, we arent skilled enough (especially down back) with the slippery ball or in close. The big difference for us will be when we get tough nuts like Ball, Beams, Krakouer, J Thomas, Maxwell and experience of Dids back in. Players like Clarke, Sinclair, Frost, Russell, Johnson need to go back in the 2's or give it away.

 

[upnsmoke]

1. Hawks are beatable... but the key word is "beat".... In the 2nd half and in essence the last 4 games against them... The Pies have ALLOWED the Hawks to play their style.

The Hawks style is highly efficient against the Pies' style at the moment. Once the ball is taken out by the Hawks' back line, the mid field either delivers the ball into their forward 50 or run it through a corridor with a bunch of midfielders and forwards receiving wide... almost an offensive flood occurs between the center of the ground and the Hawks' forward 50 line. It OVERCOMES the defenders so easily... the Pies are still recovering from the offensive attack and Hawks just have a field day.

Another thing is, when the ball inside the Hawks forward 50, they also flood. Their backlines are at the midfield ready to swarm a lone magpie who is suppose to be the recipient of the defensive play clearance.

Occasionally the defense gets out and gets to attack, but its rare....


Also, I've noticed Hawks players, midfield in particular like to criss-cross across the midfield confusing Magpie defenders which leads to open men to receive easy kicks due to the lack of defenders on the kicker.



So what does Cats, Swans and Tigers do that made them successful??
Stick to their man like white on rice.... sacrifice a bit of their offensive flow to disrupt the Hawks' offense... and catch them off their offensive flow (dis-flow in this case).

Pies players look all buddies with the Hawk players, need to harrass them and physically hurt them every tackle.. like Cats does and like Swans did.




Let's not mention the center clearances.... I can guarantee you every time the Hawks got a clearance off the center bounce, it resulted in an offensive 50 attack that completely puts the Pies defenders at disadvantage immediately....

In this case, players like Ball, Beams, matter a lot.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I think Frost needs to play this week because they have 2 permanent talls plus a rotating ruck.

Assuming Ball and Beams aren't ready, the only in I'd go with is Krakouer or Didak for Sinclair.

 

[DaVe86]

I think Frost needs to play this week because they have 2 permanent talls plus a rotating ruck.

Assuming Ball and Beams aren't ready, the only in I'd go with is Krakouer or Didak for Sinclair.

I think we sacrifice Frost to bring in a midfielder like Josh Thomas or Beams if fit. Frost plays if Reid is unfit.

Then send Goldsack into defence. He isn't offering anything up forward.

They don't really have a rotating ruck. Vickery is a 90% forward and 10% ruck. Maric does the bulk of the work.

Reid v Riewoldt
Brown v Vickery
Goldsack v Mcguane.

Mcguane isn't a real power forward...he is more there to play on the floating defender and force a contest.

 

[76woodenspooners]

3. The forward line needs its potency back. Hawthorn beat us because they have 10 guys who kick goals. Two games in a row against Hawthorn we have relied on Trav to kick our score, along with a small forward (krakouer or elliott). Sinclair and Goldsack just aren't offering scoreboard value. I think without Macaffer, we probably need a guy like Jackson Paine to help Cloke out. Otherwise Macaffer needs to be in there. We also need Didak and Krakouer. We are at our best when we have multiple goal-kicking options. Fasolo looked very sharp which was pleasing and he will step it up next week.

Ah yes, I remember the days when we had a wide field of goal kickers!

I've seen enough of Sinclair to conclude he doesn't have a working radar and I just don't think it'll be something he'll develop. I think Sinclair should either be developed into a tagger (if we'd entertain such a thing) or a small defender if the Marley Williams mold. Hopefully from 2014 Mooney can become a defensive forward type who can impact the scoreboard.

Goldsack is a useful utility type player, but I think his place in the forward line should only be in case of emergency. He's a strong mark (the last two games were wet, hardly the conditions for marking forwards). But his kick simply isn't reliable enough.

I was watching Hawks set shots from 50 and most of them bisected the sticks perfectly - I was thinking "Gee, why can't our players kick that reliably?"

4. I like Frost, but he won't be needed against Richmond unless Reid does not pull up. Tigers only have 2 key talls. However, we do need to be cautious of McGuane...and maybe Goldsack can go back to play this role in the absence of Maxwell. I don't think Goldsack is looking up to it up forward.

I like Frost too, but he's purely a shutdown defender and adds nothing in the way of run out of the back half. (And that's fair enough for a 2nd game player). But against a team like the Hawks who are good at bottling the ball in their forward half, we need defenders who are able to contribute with getting the ball out of there.

5. Ben Johnson has been a bit of a scapegoat, but he returned to form yesterday and may be our best small defender. It was a great job on Cyril. Cyril did blow it apart in the last, but he had to move into the centre to do it and also the game was pretty much done and dusted by this stage.

I think a fit and flying Williams would have been better to see in that role. He adds the inside grunt we need.

We just need a better spread of goal-kickers,

I have trouble seeing where this going to come from. I've given up on Goldsack and Sinclair for kicking goals. Macaffer is starting from scratch again and needs to prove he can find the goals. Having Beams back will help - he's good for one or two, and might free up players like Sidebottom and Blair to play forward more.

...and need to be better with our intensity.

I think we had great intensity in the first quarter and for the first half of the second. But we couldn't keep it up.

In the second half, we were outnumbered at almost every contest on the ground. That's a sign that our opposition are fitter than us.

 

[Primetime Pricey]

Basically it just confirmed the flaws we have in our game. The defence leaks/gives away way too many cheap goals which u cant do to quality outfits. Our midfield also isnt accountable enough when not in possesion.
These things can be worked on though and throw in who we were missing.

 

[Yelle]

I think we sacrifice Frost to bring in a midfielder like Josh Thomas or Beams if fit. Frost plays if Reid is unfit.

Then send Goldsack into defence. He isn't offering anything up forward.

They don't really have a rotating ruck. Vickery is a 90% forward and 10% ruck. Maric does the bulk of the work.

Reid v Riewoldt
Brown v Vickery
Goldsack v Moore.

Moore isn't a real power forward...he is more there to play on the floating defender and force a contest.

McGuane*

 

[MeisterBot]

Most of our mids are offensively tuned. They hunt the ball, but because of that, they might not consider how the opposition sets up. We seem to get beaten if we're second to the ball, they farm it out to the outside runners and they're away. Need a big bodied mid who can do the defensive stuff off the ball, or get right in there and farm it out to Pendles who is best as an inside receiver type. Having Ball out really hurts in that regard. Blair tries, but he's too small, gets shifted off the ball and can't cover enough ground on his own.

I would've thought, or liked if the coaching panel had taken Macaffer in the pre-season and added this element to his game. With Paine a better leading forward option and Goldsack's ability to swing back, Cafe needs another string to his bow. Now, this may have already been done as he was thrown in the middle previous weeks, but I'd like to see him brought back into the team and to spend more time in the middle if Beams and/or J Thomas don't play next week.

Daisy may also be a good replacement for this role in the long term, with Harry, Young, Sidebottom, Shaw and Seedsman all spending time on the wings.

As for the Tigers, it's a real danger game. We have them covered comfortably at both ends of the ground IMO, but if their midfield get on top, it'll be hard to stop them.

Also think Fasolo needs to spend more time in the midfield. Possibly at the expense of Sidebottom who I think is better off as a HFF who spends time in the middle rather than an outside mid who spends a bit of time forward.

 

[Soul_Pie]

Pretty hard to think about this game, I got increasingly angry when Hodge was just kicking arsey goals from fifty off the outside of the boot and Roughead got a shot on goal when he elbowed Lynch to the neck and got a little nudge in the side. You know it's not your game when you miss a shot on goal and then two kicks later Franklin kicks one from the centre square. Just a really annoying game as a supporter especially as we gave a good account of ourselves for a half. (we squandered opportunities in the first quarter which you just can't do) I'll probably watch the replay later on down the track and figure out what we did right and what we did wrong in the second half because it definitely felt like it was two different Collingwood teams out there. It seemed like early on Buckley had a plan as to how to beat the Hawks but it just seemed to evaporate, perhaps as we slipped into old habits or we tired, or we were just worked out. In any case the end score was a disappointment because they weren't that much better than us.

You're spot on Dave in that our depth will get us over the line against the average teams when we're missing some players, that's the upside to our season. The downside is that depth can't cover for your best players, of which you need quite a few, when you play opposition as star studded as Hawthorn. Daisy is still finding is feet, Fasolo is a talented player who needs to play full games if we're to take the next step, Beams and Ball are crucial to our success this year and I don't think we can win the flag without them. Our team defense really needs to be overhauled and I believe this is partly mindset, this is the third time in a row we've conceded 100 points or more, that just isn't the kind of football we want to play, we want every goal to be a struggle for the opposition.

If one thing can be taken out of this game it's that for one, we need a much more cohesive midfield that doesn't allow any outside run, our mids should have just watched the Sydney guys all Summer and how they completely lock down the space and stop those cheap clearances where some guy drifting past has all the time in the world. That can't happen against Hawthorn because their ball skills are far too good. The other thing is, it's early in the season, we have time to organise our squad and find out who are the best 22 and who are being covered by the better players, when you get taught a footy lesson you need to learn from it.

Suddenly the next two rounds become of vital importance. The Richmond we played last year is different to this current model which is chock full of confidence and probably the strongest outfit they've fielded in over 10 years, the Anzac Day clash is difficult enough at the best of times but Essendon are playing like a side with nothing to lose. We need to improve, and rapidly.

 

[DaVe86]

McGuane*

my apologies...pretty lousy mistake. In my defence i said McGuane in my OP

 

[DaVe86]

Just on Heath Shaw...I like him as a forward/wingman as a bit of a one-off tactic...but I think he gets a bit lost forward of the ball. I think he likes having the game play out in front of him.

 

[jathanas]

Just on Heath Shaw...I like him as a forward/wingman as a bit of a one-off tactic...but I think he gets a bit lost forward of the ball. I think he likes having the game play out in front of him.

Heater is brilliant when on song but...

Watching him yesterday I had the impression that his head wasn't in the right space. It might be because he at times gets lost in his new role or just that Hawthorn is not a team he plays well against. Either way, his mental demons manifest themselves as brain fades that cost the team.

We take the good with the bad I suppose...

 

[DaVe86]

He nearly cost us last week against Carlton as well. There was one dropped mark which resulted in a goal, and then a number of missed chances in front of goal.

I just think he is of more use in defence because he is a good spoiler and good at ground level with his pressure.

He'll bounce back though.

 

[4#Didak#4]

With Heater some credit goes to Jordan Lewis who got in his head and beat him well on the day. Lewis sacrificed his game to take Heater out.

I think even when we have a full squad back I prefer Heater in the back half where he reads the play so well. The odd foray forward can be productive especially if he is getting tagged, but in general let him play to his strengths.

 

[Who_can_say]

On a positive, Fasolo had an immediate impact and looked fantastic. His goal sense, and his awareness are his immediate strengths, and we could have really used them yesterday. Moreover, his kicking is generally very effective and long. His boot was raking at times, and it was a good weapon against their press. The only other player who used his boot to the same effect yesterday was Lynch.

 

[xxxWillxxx]

He nearly cost us last week against Carlton as well. There was one dropped mark which resulted in a goal, and then a number of missed chances in front of goal.

I just think he is of more use in defence because he is a good spoiler and good at ground level with his pressure.

He'll bounce back though.

noting better than when heater is flogging someone in the backline and all of a sudden he pops up and kicks a goal down the other end

 

[DaVe86]

noting better than when heater is flogging someone in the backline and all of a sudden he pops up and kicks a goal down the other end

yes...but in the last few weeks Heater has been either starting forward or on a wing. I think he likes to start from defence and push hard forward.