Opinion The Rebuild Thread

[JustaBattler]

.....ntensity is also much better on a regular basis than anything we front up with at the moment.
I still think there's more wrong than just the cliche that we are shit.

We're still largely the same shit team that should have beat Hawthorn only 12 months ago and were also in a winning position against Geelong.
No we're not good enough but we shouldn't be anywhere near as bad as for some of the garbage we've dished up this year ....

It's above the shoulders more than for any other reason as to why we're not producing. Why though, makes for the interesting question.

I can't help but think the Coach has to shoulder some blame in all this....

 

[invinciBlues]

I can't help but think the Coach has to shoulder some blame in all this....

Apparently he doesnt take the field. What else can he do?

 

[Just Kreuzing]

I can't help but think the Coach has to shoulder some blame in all this....

Was thinking about Malthouse's style earlier today and how players may react/respond to him....

Then I heard Chris Dawes has started to find a bit of confidence and has re-established his hunger for the contest in the past couple of weeks and thought ...Hmmm

Did Dawes love playing under Malthouse and not Buckley when he lost all form ???

Did he not want to work hard for Neeld but respects Roo's more ???

Who know's what goes through players minds these days, I get the impression that Malthouse might rub a few of our precious types up the wrong way with his demands and they pick and choose what the will do and when they will do it.

Should the players be made to conform, should the coach alter his style or be shown the door.....

 

[chunkylover53]

And we will be but it doesn't necessarily constitute a re-build.

You can consider us having been ruthless last year when we moved on 10 players in one way or another.
Hampson, Betts, McCarthy, Mitchell, Joseph, Davies, Collins, O'Keeffe, Laidler and Duigan. You can say Scotland also as he has been demoted.
I can't help but wonder which of these guys would still be at the club should have Ratten still been in charge. Scary thought.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Ratts was delusional after 2010/2011, not sure he would have stayed that way if we missed the 8 again in 2013.

I think a full independent review of the entire club and especially the footballing department, and net Ratten some good assistants (all of this at the end of 2012), we would have made these necessary changes if we had an ordinary year like we did in 2013.

I'm starting to think that all these issues the club had off-field, and continue to have today, were not entirely Rattens fault.

Would the shake-up our recruiting department has had, and the changes the VFL system has undergone have happened with Ratten in charge? I reckon they could have.

No point discussing any of this though, just bored and sad.

 

[Bugglz]

As much as I have enjoyed reading this thread (lets be honest, you all would to if the boot was on the other foot ), I think its important to point out that a football club, especially one of the bigger ones, can change its fortunes very quickly. Look at Port two years ago, they were a laughing stock in 2012 and look a lock for top 4 this season.
This same discussion was being had on the Collingwood board last year when we lost to North and Port after losing to GC a few weeks earlier. Plenty of supporters were calling for a complete rebuild and a new coach, but this year we're looking like a top 4 side again.
Carlton obviously have the potential to be a top side capable of going deep into september, as shown by a number of performances over the last few years. I wouldn't write you guys off just yet, you just need things to go your way.*





*Although I sincerely hope they don't

 

[chunkylover53]

Absolutely not, as Ratten didn't hire himself.

We had to put him on yet we didn't really want him.
As if Ratten wouldn't have known/felt that and all the pressure that came along with it.

Kernahan said that if it was up to him, Ratten would still be there.
I still can't get my ahead around a president opening declaring that and then seeing Ratten ousted.
Bewildering and that alone suggests that Kernahan cared more for his mates than for the club. He didn't say as such but what is that comment about?
The President for gods sake said that! What does that say for the people that made the collective decision?

Get rid of the amateurs and get this club working in a professional manner again. Off you go Mark..

Funny you see it that way. I see it as a suggestion of how little say the non money-men have around our club. I had it on very good authority that after we sacked Pagan, our board threw the cheque book at Vossy, and we were shattered when he signed with the Lions just a short time later. Imagine if we got him, scary. Ratten fell to us and I actually like some of the things he did with us.

I would back Kernahan to have very good judgement on the football matters. He is a multiple premiership player, been around footy his whole life, and bleeds navy blue. To me, and my experience with football, I would back his opinion over our board members any day (when it comes to on-field matters).

I think he gets a bad wrap around here, nobody else could control this board of ours - we actually need their money, but they want the say in everything.

 

[Kramer1]

Far more interested in having respect for the team I barrack for than I am in counting wins or worrying about where we sit on the premiership clock.

Play the kids, don't, gut the list, don't...just show me some ****ing effort on a week in week out basis.

 

[chunkylover53]

We wanted Roos first and foremost. The one we don't hear much about though is Worsfold.
I understand we may have been having a very good sniff there also.

The President comes out pining over a decision he was supposedly overseeing? GTFO.
What is that? He should have either been sent packing there and then or packed his own bags and left.
There should have been no middle ground..........none.

After we sacked Pagan? Really? Only two contenders I remember was Vossy and Ratts.

You're right, it was a joke that our president comes out and says that. But to me that isn't an indictment on Sticks, it just displayed the instability and fractures of the club to the public. The footballing world knew then and know now that Sticks has no control over the club, it's run by the businessmen, who showed that they had no real respect for Sticks. If the head honcho of the club is "standing by his man ", and has more footballing experience than the entire board, then in my opinion - they should allow him to do so until the coaches contract is up.

Frank Costa fiercely stood by Thompson when some players, board members and supporters wanted him gone.

 

[Juddys_navy_blues]

Personally and i know alot wont agree but i think we need to go after a few of the GWS players, Patton or Boyd would be a great get for Carlton, maybe give up a Gibbs, Kruezer or Yarran as part of the deal to get 1 of them. Our Recruiting of big men has been very poor, the only bigman we picked up who has turned into a star is Kennedy and he isnt with us anymore, Mitchell, McCarthey and even Watson have been major letdowns. Until we address the key forward we are going to struggle, Waite is unavailable to often and his absence really hurts our structure, if we had Hendo Levi and Patton (Boyd) in the forward line with smaller goal kickers like Menzel we would be alot better. I think we should bite the bullet and trade and target players who are going to fill the major problem areas. Menzel Cripps Buckley Graham and Docherty need to be playing seniors this year and not as the bloody sub either, we arent going to make the finals so lets see what these kids have got. Would rather see these kids running around compared to players like Robbo who has lost that crazy hungry style he used to have and Snail McLean. Ok now i will sit back and wait for the abuse that will come my way..

 

[chunkylover53]

Apologies, as I was talking about 2011/12 before and during Ratten's 2 year contract.

That's right but somebody has to make a stand.
Either Kernahan stands by his beliefs or the larger board sit by theirs. In the end..............nothing.
Kernahan pines for his mate and .........................never mind. Tired of talking about it.

New President and can only hope he has a pair.

Agree, no point discussing. But it does get me thinking about what could have been had we done a review and Ratten had of coached in 2013.

Oh well. Things have turned around quickly for clubs in the past, hopefully we can be one of them.

 

[Juddys_navy_blues]

Would love Treloar at Carlton, that kid is a bloody gun and will win a Brownlow one day, Gibbs for Treloar?

 

[etsal1]

Would love Treloar at Carlton, that kid is a bloody gun and will win a Brownlow one day, Gibbs for Treloar?

We're not getting anything for a Gibbs but a compensation pick if he goes. No one will trade for a free agent they can get for free. And Gibbs won't go to GWS.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

We're not getting anything for a Gibbs but a compensation pick if he goes. No one will trade for a free agent they can get for free. And Gibbs won't go to GWS.

my understanding is we will get a compensation pick straight after our first pick ... v tempting if we finish in the bottom 6 (which we are on target to do)

 

[Stig O'Hara]

We're not getting anything for a Gibbs but a compensation pick if he goes. No one will trade for a free agent they can get for free. And Gibbs won't go to GWS.

If he lands at Sydney Airport, reckon there's always a Swans recruiter with a cheque book in the arrivals lounge.

I think that's how it works.

 

[etsal1]

my understanding is we will get a compensation pick straight after our first pick ... v tempting if we finish in the bottom 6 (which we are on target to do)

Yep this is the case.

I was just trying to make sure that poster didn't get his hopes up of trading Gibbs for a good player.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Yep this is the case.

I was just trying to make sure that poster didn't get his hopes up of trading Gibbs for a good player.

Yes the best way we could replace Gibbs if he wanted out is to finish bottom 3 or 4, Maybe Bryce will single handedly orchestrate this for us...

 

[etsal1]

Yes the best way we could replace Gibbs if he wanted out is to finish bottom 3 or 4, Maybe Bryce will single handedly orchestrate this for us...

Well there are some who believe this is already happening

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Well there are some who believe this is already happening

I know, surely not though, he gets marked harshly.

 

[HARKER]

Would love Treloar at Carlton, that kid is a bloody gun and will win a Brownlow one day, Gibbs for Treloar?

How is that possible when Natanui will win 2, Cotchin 2, Dangerfield 2, Ablett another 2, Fyfe 2 and O'Meara and Jack Martin 5 each?

 

[Just Kreuzing]

How is that possible when Natanui will win 2, Cotchin 2, Dangerfield 2, Ablett another 2, Fyfe 2 and O'Meara and Jack Martin 5 each?

Forgot Pendlebury also Harks...

 

[thylacine60]

AFL accept multi-million dollar sponsorship deal from Brownlow Toilet Cleaner and move to a 6 medal system.

 

[invinciBlues]

Personally and i know alot wont agree but i think we need to go after a few of the GWS players, Patton or Boyd would be a great get for Carlton, maybe give up a Gibbs, Kruezer or Yarran as part of the deal to get 1 of them. Our Recruiting of big men has been very poor, the only bigman we picked up who has turned into a star is Kennedy and he isnt with us anymore, Mitchell, McCarthey and even Watson have been major letdowns. Until we address the key forward we are going to struggle, Waite is unavailable to often and his absence really hurts our structure, if we had Hendo Levi and Patton (Boyd) in the forward line with smaller goal kickers like Menzel we would be alot better. I think we should bite the bullet and trade and target players who are going to fill the major problem areas. Menzel Cripps Buckley Graham and Docherty need to be playing seniors this year and not as the bloody sub either, we arent going to make the finals so lets see what these kids have got. Would rather see these kids running around compared to players like Robbo who has lost that crazy hungry style he used to have and Snail McLean. Ok now i will sit back and wait for the abuse that will come my way..

I agree so much with this, I honestly do except for the trading of Kreuzer of course. My precept has always been sort out the spine and the flanks,pockets and wings will take care of themselves.

I cant be alone in thinking that each and every draft not only runs deep with quality mids and coupled with the fact that once the spine is sorted by the time the spine comes together the midfield will generally look a lot better and easier to patch up than it is to patch over a key position. Its also a lot easier to trade in a decent mid than it is to trade in a decent tall.

Im very positive with how our spine looks, and I might be overly optimistic at times but I dont think its as far away as some punters say it is. Theres a lot to like about Rowe and White at the moment, just need one or two more starting 22 types and another one or two developing and covering injuries/suspensions when needed.

Ruck is good right now, will be exponentially better if Kreuzer can get his body together.
Mids are good, need some quality depth a couple of blokes deeper and a better run with injuries.
Flanks and pockets are sorted.

We might've gone about it arse backwards by trying to build the midfield first and then the spine, but Im of the opinion it'll come together much quicker than the 4 or 5 years that most are saying it will.

 

[Dramoth]

Whately, Sellars and David King were discussing us on Grandstand on Saturday in what I thought was a pretty intelligent manner.

Gist of it was that the Collingwood game was final, irrefutable proof of where we are at right now with this list: no chance of competing against a top 4 side, virtually no chance of playing finals. They all agreed that we have been kidding ourselves for a long time, but could no longer and it was time to rebuild. Not worry about winning week to week, but selecting teams with an eye to the future and taking the wins when and if they come. This means no more Scotland or McLean unless as sub, playing kids to see what they can deliver, and no high priced recruits like Thomas, who they all thought was a massive mistake in the context of our position.

I agree mostly but I think they and all the I told you sos are very good with hindsight. I doubt anyone who watched the 2011 Elimination Final vs the Eagles imagined that it was the highwater mark rather than the launching pad. Hell, the media universally annointed us as flag favourites when we started 2012 with a blast. Huge fall from there however and the reasons for this have been discussed ad nauseum here there and everywhere since so I will leave that alone. Suffice to say our recruiting has been off the mark with far too many high draft picks failing and far too much work going into developing rookies with huge deficiencies in their stead. We now have some huge holes in our list and are fielding teams with some players who are simply not good enough.

So now it boils down to recruitment and development. I think we need to focus on youth but to develop our youth we need to hang onto our good mature players, so Thomas could well prove a good get in that regard. Don't want any of our good players traded out because we have too few but if we finish near the bottom and can get a high first rounder in compo for Gibbs we should look at it pretty hard.

Need to be ruthless at the end of the year. If someone can't perform all the basic skills required of an AFL player then out they go.

If we are going the full rebuild route, I vote that we get rid of any coaches who can't seem to be able to impart even basic skills to the players immediately and get in coaches from lower level organisation who can do their job properly.

What's Peter Dean doing these days? I heard he was doing well as a coach these days?

 

[etsal1]

I can just imagine the glee in king's voice on the radio.

 

[BluBeyondBelief]

It worries me how long it will take, because if done properly it will be minimum 5 years before we contend seriously. I am beginning to think someone like Murphy wont even be part of the next premiership. We are talking a CLUB rebuild not just the team. Cultural change. I dont really have the how-tos though. Right now, one guy I'd be trying to keep is Shane Rogers and the water girl.

I dont have the answers either but here's my 5 cents worth.

After the loss to Collingwood, in his press conference, MM spoke about there being way too many passengers in the side. How about affecting a cultural change in the player group by identifying all those players who don't play with their hearts, and slowly getting rid of them at the end of the year?

Its been said by many posters on here that Carlton has a list of 2 types of players: Those with skill but not heart, and those with heart but little skill. You retain the players with heart, and you send a message to all new players coming through that this is the intensity that is demanded by others in the playing group. You make the players themselves accountable to each other. This may not be realistic in the short term, however you slowly build a culture within the playing group that becomes entrenched beyond whatever game plan they are coached. This is the kind of culture we hear of other more successful teams currently in the league.

It was nice to see the old jumper again on the field, however this playing group didn't do it an ounce of justice. My memories of that jumper are from an era when Carlton were a strong and proud club. I would rather see players on the field, giving their heart and soul for the jumper.