No Oppo Supporters The Umpiring thread.

[ydraw]

We're agreeing furiously.
How many umps are they going to fly interstate each week? So, they're left with WA umpires who most likely grew up with Wet Toast as the dominant side. Same deal in SA. It doesn't take a conspiracy to see why the system's broken, just common sense.
Cricket introduced neutral umpires decades ago. Was that paranoid? Was that a reflection on the integrity of the umpires. (Maybe in some cases.) But it improved the umpiring because it made it professional, took the parochialism our of it.

Agree 100% that neutral umpires are needed. It's absolutely ridiculous that the most senior WA-based umpire is best mates with everyone at West Coast and yet still umpires derbies.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Sometimes decisions go your way, sometimes they don't. I've never felt that umpires systematically rule against us.

On GT-I9506 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[ydraw]

Sometimes decisions go your way, sometimes they don't. I've never felt that umpires systematically rule against us.

On GT-I9506 using BigFooty.com mobile app

The stats say otherwise. West Coast get many more decisions go their way than we do. A trend that has been true for as long as stats are available for.

 

[Clems Knee]

Sometimes decisions go your way, sometimes they don't. I've never felt that umpires systematically rule against us.

On GT-I9506 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Feelings don't compare with data.

Its not so much that umpires systematically rule against us. We are bang in the middle as far as umpire's decisions go. Its that umpires systematically rule in favour of the West Coast Eagles, especially at home. This Derby, it started happening before the crowd even found it's voice.

I haven't seen a good analysis of the effect that having a particular umpire officiating has on free kicks awarded for and against each team.
A few years ago, the correct and incorrect free kicks paid and free kicks missed used to be published for the season. it would be interesting if these were made available on Champion Data or some other statistical site.

 

[peppy la pew]

Blaming umpires for a 40 odd defeat where we never looked like winning is bullshit, it's a cop out

Get used to the fact that our squad aint up to it and we are in rebuilding mode

This thread is embarrassing

 

[estibador]

Blaming umpires for a 40 odd defeat where we never looked like winning is bullshit, it's a cop out

Get used to the fact that our squad aint up to it and we are in rebuilding mode

This thread is embarrassing

I haven't seen many blame the umps for us losing.

It's possible to play badly and be subjected to unfair umpiring at the same time.

 

[Nolo180]

I've always been a little dubious of the whistle blowers and all to familiar with the advantage statistically WCE have got from the umpires at subi.

But the clincher for me was the 2015 prelim final against the Hawks. When the Hawks lost the first final to the toast and Clarko said after the game that some of the decisions were a bit harsh it seems we got the correction 2 weeks later after the backlash from over east. Freo got off to a good start before a few dubious free kicks were payed to the hawks resulting in goals that amounted in a momentum shift. Remember the umpire up in the stands congratulating Rosebury for paying the infringement against Ballas. Man that still sticks in my mind big time.

I think sometimes the umpires get caught up in all the romance sometimes too. For instance in 2015 no team had lost a QF final then gone on to make a GF since 2006. And no one had got a 3 peat in a while either and everyone was talking about one of the greatest teams of all time etc...And then of course the fairy tale of 2016 is another example ( I'm happy for the WB but geez the Swannies got it raw with no lube).
Maybe i'm just paranoid but sometimes the pull of creating something magical is too much to resist for the AFL cause lets face it creates interest and therefore more $$$. And that's what its really all about at the end of the day just take a look at the AFL business model with its investment in expansion & the AFLW for instance. Its an entertainment business but some of us take it more seriously than that. I do firmly believe there is a bias from particular umpires to certain teams but there is also a pull from the AFL & the wider football community (along with the home crowd of course) on the umpires mindset going into games.

We just need a bit of love from the media (in Melbourne cause there's buckleys chance over here) because no one gives a shit along as it doesn't affect them . Maybe with a more attractive game style we might be able to convert some people to take more of an interest in Freo and adopt them as a second team???

And yes umpires should have to declare any particular interest in a team either as a fan or professionial / family relationships etc if they don't already and they should be excluded from those games full stop. Its plain and simply a conflict of interest and its just the right thing to do.

I agree with everyone else in that nothings gonna change so it would probably just be easier to turn a blind eye to it like the average punter does.

 

[Square Peg]

The 2015 prelim - Mayne gets paid a free kick in the first quarter 20 metres out directly in front and misses. But it was the umpires that lost us the game.

 

[Frigate]

This has been clarified many times but the AFL will never address the obvious conflicts of interest:

Margetts was NOT best man at Dean Cox' wedding but he WAS either a groomsman or a guest. He is, by his own admission a friend of Cox. He also attends West Coast preseason training to 'explain' the rules and what they can do to avoid giving away free kicks.

Then he umpires their games.

Leigh Fisher was publicly delisted by Lyon in a fairly humiliating manner. He has not forgotten or forgiven and crucifies Freo every chance he gets. His antipathy towards Lyon is well known yet the AFL allow him to umpire in Freo games in spite of numerous and blatant one sided umpiring performances.

There was a suggestion that Dalziell's partner works for West Coast but I have not been able to determine whether that is true or otherwise as yet.

The AFL needs to explain why they allow such obvious conflicts of interest, watch obvious different standards being applied to different teams and then claim there is nothing untoward about the match officials. It is absurd but I hold little hope that it will ever be addressed when too many people have too many fingers in the pie. Follow the money is usual cry here and plenty of people are making a quid out of the AFL to want to upset the apple cart

You had me at conflict of interest. Is this a legal term? If we looked at similar state politics, would it be an issue? Hang on a minute.... Is this AFL thing a corrupt bullshit industry, that favors the money and not the people?

I know before you say it, too many questions before midnight.

 

[Nolo180]

The 2015 prelim - Mayne gets paid a free kick in the first quarter 20 metres out directly in front and misses. But it was the umpires that lost us the game.

And thats why we have a dedicated Chris Mayne thread now we have a dedicated umpire thread...

 

[Nolo180]

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

The stats say otherwise. West Coast get many more decisions go their way than we do. A trend that has been true for as long as stats are available for.

Free kicks are generally given to players who work for them.

You want a free? Take front position, put your head over the ball, tackle hard and fair. Everything else is excuses.

If you don't think we're getting enough free kicks, then maybe we haven't earned them?

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Feelings don't compare with data.

Its not so much that umpires systematically rule against us. We are bang in the middle as far as umpire's decisions go. Its that umpires systematically rule in favour of the West Coast Eagles, especially at home. This Derby, it started happening before the crowd even found it's voice.

I haven't seen a good analysis of the effect that having a particular umpire officiating has on free kicks awarded for and against each team.
A few years ago, the correct and incorrect free kicks paid and free kicks missed used to be published for the season. it would be interesting if these were made available on Champion Data or some other statistical site.

So we get a fairly reasonable rub of the green regarding free kicks....

Then what is this thread about? WC getting more?

If you think the reason we got stomped 1st Q in the derby was because of the free kick count, then you're struggling.

 

[ydraw]

Free kicks are generally given to players who work for them.

You want a free? Take front position, put your head over the ball, tackle hard and fair. Everything else is excuses.

If you don't think we're getting enough free kicks, then maybe we haven't earned them?

Except the analysis done above explicitly debunks that and shows that free kicks are generally given to the home team. It's been posted a bunch of times now, I can't force you to read it but I can ignore you if insist on not reading it and repeating something that isn't true and has been debunked by actual analysis.

All the analysis that's been posted here states that free kicks go to:

a: The Home Team
b: A small group of players who actively play for them.

They've actually tested your theory that free kicks go to "players who work hard for them" by analysing the correlation between contested possessions, hard ball gets, tackles etc, and found the correlation to be very weak. Free kicks correlate strongly with being the home team, especially if you happen to be the West Coast Eagles. Those are the facts, not "feelings".

 

[Nolo180]

So we get a fairly reasonable rub of the green regarding free kicks....

Then what is this thread about? WC getting more?

If you think the reason we got stomped 1st Q in the derby was because of the free kick count, then you're struggling.

No but some carefully managed football department funds towards an acting school could pay dividends in the future? Or a talent scout to find athletes who aren't natural footballers but can act that might help also. Anyone know what happened to the character from the johnson & johnson toothbrush ad who had the flip top head similar to Jack Darling? He would be my number #1 draft pick

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Except the analysis done above explicitly debunks that and shows that free kicks are generally given to the home team. It's been posted a bunch of times now, I can't force you to read it but I can ignore you if insist on not reading it and repeating something that isn't true and has been debunked by actual analysis.

All the analysis that's been posted here states that free kicks go to:

a: The Home Team
b: A small group of players who actively play for them.

They've actually tested your theory that free kicks go to "players who work hard for them" by analysing the correlation between contested possessions, hard ball gets, tackles etc, and found the correlation to be very weak. Free kicks correlate strongly with being the home team, especially if you happen to be the West Coast Eagles. Those are the facts, not "feelings".

Correlation is not causation.

 

[ydraw]

Correlation is not causation.

Nobody's made any claim about causation though. The fact is that there isn't any correlation between "working for free kicks" and getting them. The only strong correlation is between who the home team is.

 

[Nolo180]

 

[Clems Knee]

Correlation is not causation.

This is true. We can speculate on causation given the correlations that have been shown.

There is a good correlation between
Being the Home team and umpiring decisions
Playing an Interstate team and umpiring decisions
Being West Coast Eagles and umpiring decisions.

There is no or a weak correlation between putting your head over the ball, tackling hard and fair, and umpiring decisions. So what you've said above has been disproven.

I think it's obvious that the crowd makes a difference when it's a home crowd playing an interstate team to umpires. I also posted the graph showing that the difference has become more pronounced over the last 4 years.
Why the increase? We can speculate on that, but I don't know. I am sure that it is a bad thing, and means that the game is becoming increasingly unfair.
The West Coast advantage is on top of that. We can speculate on the cause. Is it particular umpires or the whole umpiring department responsible for the West Coast advantage? Are the Eagles players able to draw free kicks more than anyone else ( a la Mr Flappy) and con all umpires? I don't know because correlation does not equal causation.

I couldn't find a good analysis on blog or news sites of particular umpires and umpiring decisions to see if there is a good correlation for games involving particular clubs. Many of us think that Leigh Fisher has a problem with Freo (Lyon) based on a few games. It would be interesting to see if those few games stand out statistically as aberrations or if we are overstating it.

 

[Clems Knee]

So we get a fairly reasonable rub of the green regarding free kicks....

Then what is this thread about? WC getting more?

If you think the reason we got stomped 1st Q in the derby was because of the free kick count, then you're struggling.

The thread is about the state of umpiring generally. Otherwise I would have called it Umpires V Freo, or something.
The thread is about the decline of standards of umpiring over the last 4 years - there is now a bigger (about 3 times the) difference than there used to be between home and away umpiring
The thread is intended to show that overall, we are no different to all other teams (except West Coast and to a lesser extent Western Bulldogs). I am happy about that. The thread wasn't intended (just) as a melt.

The thread does show that one team in particular gets a clear and consistent favouritism whether they are playing badly or well. That team is West Coast. I think that's a big story and should be publicised.

Why do West Coast get such an advantage? It isn't just crowd noise. That's been disproven.
Is it cheating by the umpires? Cheating by the players? Cheating by the AFL itself? Something else?

And as for the derby on Saturday: I think there were three reasons responsible for the first quarter blowout.
1. Freo players kicking to McGovern and Yeo and turning the ball over
2. The blatant one sided umpiring.
3. Some ridiculously good goals by West Coast, especially by their Hill.
Remove any one of those reasons and the quarter would have been a lot closer.

 

[Quinz]

There is no or a weak correlation between putting your head over the ball, tackling hard and fair, and umpiring decisions. So what you've said above has been disproven.

Is there a correlation between winning free kick counts, and winning matches, I wonder? You'd suspect yes, but umpiring decisions are such a small component of overall actions in a game there may not be.

 

[Quinz]

We're agreeing furiously.
How many umps are they going to fly interstate each week? So, they're left with WA umpires who most likely grew up with Wet Toast as the dominant side. Same deal in SA. It doesn't take a conspiracy to see why the system's broken, just common sense.
Cricket introduced neutral umpires decades ago. Was that paranoid? Was that a reflection on the integrity of the umpires. (Maybe in some cases.) But it improved the umpiring because it made it professional, took the parochialism our of it.

So I was curious about this. If you look at games in South Australia and Western Australia this year, there are

Four SA umpires (Fleer, DeBoy, Hay and Schmitt)
Five WA umpires (Dalgleish, Farmer, Margetts, Rosebury and Williamson)

If you go game by game in Adelaide and Perth
Round 1 Adelaide had 0 SA umpires
Round 1 Fremantle had 2 WA umpires
Round 2 Port Adelaide had 1 SA umpire
Round 2 West Coast had 0 WA umpires
Round 3 Showdown had 0 SA umpires
Round 3 Fremantle had 1 WA umpire
Round 4 Adelaide had 2 SA umpires
Round 4 West Coast had 1 WA umpire
Round 5 Port Adelaide had 0 SA umpires
Round 5 Fremantle had 0 WA umpires
Round 6 Adelaide had 0 SA umpires
Round 6 Derby had 2 WA umpires

So in 12 games, half had no local umpires, 3 had one, 3 had two, and none used only local umpires.

27 out of 36, or 75% of umpires were flown interstate to umpire in these matches. It doesn't seem like the AFL being unwilling to fly umpires interstate is a theory that holds in reality. But these figures are only for this year and may not continue as the year progresses.

Incidentally our Free Kick differential has worsened the more WA umpires are added..

 

[Nightrain]

I've always been a little dubious of the whistle blowers and all to familiar with the advantage statistically WCE have got from the umpires at subi.

But the clincher for me was the 2015 prelim final against the Hawks. When the Hawks lost the first final to the toast and Clarko said after the game that some of the decisions were a bit harsh it seems we got the correction 2 weeks later after the backlash from over east. Freo got off to a good start before a few dubious free kicks were payed to the hawks resulting in goals that amounted in a momentum shift. Remember the umpire up in the stands congratulating Rosebury for paying the infringement against Ballas. Man that still sticks in my mind big time.

I think sometimes the umpires get caught up in all the romance sometimes too. For instance in 2015 no team had lost a QF final then gone on to make a GF since 2006. And no one had got a 3 peat in a while either and everyone was talking about one of the greatest teams of all time etc...And then of course the fairy tale of 2016 is another example ( I'm happy for the WB but geez the Swannies got it raw with no lube).
Maybe i'm just paranoid but sometimes the pull of creating something magical is too much to resist for the AFL cause lets face it creates interest and therefore more $$$. And that's what its really all about at the end of the day just take a look at the AFL business model with its investment in expansion & the AFLW for instance. Its an entertainment business but some of us take it more seriously than that. I do firmly believe there is a bias from particular umpires to certain teams but there is also a pull from the AFL & the wider football community (along with the home crowd of course) on the umpires mindset going into games.

We just need a bit of love from the media (in Melbourne cause there's buckleys chance over here) because no one gives a shit along as it doesn't affect them . Maybe with a more attractive game style we might be able to convert some people to take more of an interest in Freo and adopt them as a second team???

And yes umpires should have to declare any particular interest in a team either as a fan or professionial / family relationships etc if they don't already and they should be excluded from those games full stop. Its plain and simply a conflict of interest and its just the right thing to do.

I agree with everyone else in that nothings gonna change so it would probably just be easier to turn a blind eye to it like the average punter does.

Firstly, I have to say that even without those dubious frees to West Coast and non-frees to us, I don't think we would have won the game on the w/e as they were better, ran harder and we lost all structure around and forward of the ball.

However, I agree with a lot of this post. The one example you could have added to the post was the Crowley-Johnson-Selwood incident against the Cats in Pav's 300th (I think) at Subi. This was when Johnson pushed Crowley over the line into Selwood, which then resulted in a Cats down field free and goal. None of the field umpires picked it up and it was the emergency umpire (who clearly did not see it himself) saw that Crowley was involved and just assumed he was the instigator. The muppet ump just believed all the bad press in the media about Crowls and made his decision based on that.

Up until recently (Hase, Bell and Macca on radio, Pav on Fox) we were the bottom along with the Saints possibly for representation in the media. This means that any outlet can say anything about our club/players and there is no defense in the media. The umpires buy in and they go into games with pre-conceived impressions of our players. You can bet your left one if it was Ballantyne who wrapped Wingard's neck around a goal post he wouldn't have Ling coming to his defense after the game about how great a bloke he is and how it wasn't that bad. I reckon Ballas would have got 6 weeks minimum for it, which is what I was expecting Hodge to get considering he had only whacked Swallow a few weeks before that in a pretty disgraceful act.

Whilst we have some representation in the media now it is still not influential. We need some of our ex-players to be getting those plum jobs over east; umpiring director, someone get on the tribunal panel as Brad Sewell was for his mate Hodgey during the Wingard incident. Get Pav to replace Robbo on AFL-360 (dreaming I know) or a semi regular spot on, On the Couch.

The AFL needs to firstly make the rules simpler (ie abolish the Deliberate OOB and adopt the SANFL's last touched rule (at least trial it in the pre-season instead of names on shirts), fix the abomination that is the advantage rule - just make it like soccer FFS, redefine what is in the back as it is becoming to ticky tacky now, and another that makes me laugh - when a player is told to play on after a mark or free the umpire blows the whistle to inform the player he has 5 seconds then calls play on. Surely this is ass about. He should be calling the 5 second warning and blowing the whistle for play on that way all and sundry know that play is on. The amount of times you see the bloke on the mark just stand there because he hasn't heard the call is ridiculous. Take out, or at least reduce, the onus on umpiring interpretation and make more decisions black or white. Then you can hold the ****s accountable. Until then they can cite interpretation as their defense.

Then they need to go to professional umpiring. Umpires who live, eat, breathe football 24/7. If they're not umpiring they're sitting in a room together digesting wrong/right calls form the previous week. They become robots and any opinion is squeezed out of them.

More to say but will leave it there.

 

[Nodgey]

Agree withe above re the whistle and play on. I hate it when the ump blows the whistle to tell the player to hurry up, but then there's no whistle for the actual 'play on' call. This needs fixing.

Players are told to play to the whistle, which is why I also hate the advantage rule. Everyone stops to see who got the free, at which time it's too late because some little turd has raced off with an 'advantage'. Umps need to perhaps trial a belated whistle (just like soccer) to only hold up play if there isn't an advantage.

Another problem with our game is the adjudicators/executive legislating a game style. So many changes to rules to "speed up play", "reduce stoppages", "promote use of the corridor". Why tf can't we just let the teams play the way they want? Forcing a specific (faster, less stoppages) style of play creates yet another perceived conflict of interest toward some teams (e.g. Dogs, Giants) while hindering others (Freo, Sydney).

 

[PurpleEyes]

Is there a correlation between winning free kick counts, and winning matches, I wonder? You'd suspect yes, but umpiring decisions are such a small component of overall actions in a game there may not be.

Not in Freo's recent history ...

In 2015 Freo started the season with quite favourable umpiriing.
After 6 rounds with Freo at 6-6-0 (ie. 6 wins) and a Free Kick Differential of +24, the umpiring went south on Freo. Freo were still winning games, but the umpiring appears to then trend against to make it harder for Freo. Their Free Kick Differential from Round 7 on was -77.
In 2016 after Freo ending the 2015 as minor premiers and having the umpires help end our season in the PF vs HA, Freo began the season with a -20 Free Kick Differential in the first 4 games. After Round 5, with a 5-0-5 (ie. 5 losses) record and Freo's season gone with injuries to several key players, Freo's umpiring became favourable with a Free Kick Differential for the rest of the season of +8.