I'm sure some of the interstate umpires grew up as WC supporters. Your supporter base is more wide spread than WA and is actually very strong in Victoria from memory?
No Oppo Supporters The Umpiring thread.
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I'm sure some of the interstate umpires grew up as WC supporters. Your supporter base is more wide spread than WA and is actually very strong in Victoria from memory?
Perhaps, but not all the WA umpires are Eagles fans by the same token, it's all just speculation beyond that point.
That's even if you accept the idea that an umpire would favour a team at potential risk of their own reputation and career.
I don't usually like to lay into umpires too much, it would be a difficult and prick of a job officiating Aussie Rules games but the one sided display on the weekend was horseshit.
It may be a stretch but in lieu of anything else credible I'm starting to wonder if it comes down to simple colour psychology.
There are articles out there that state teams that have red as their primary colour tend to score more and win more than teams with blue for example... https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/attitude-check/201610/do-uniform-colors-matter-in-sports
There is further research that talks about this and goes into some other colour such as the primaries but states purple has no effect either way and so isn't analysed. https://www.kennisbanksportenbewegen.nl/?file=4310&m=1430485253&action=file.download
These show there is a link between the colours that teams use versus their performance and that there is also a negative perception against teams that choose dark colour like purple.
When you look at the colour psychology charts like the one below...Blue = Trustworthy, Secure, Responsible and Yellow = Friendly, Cheerful and Warm. That's a fairly powerful message to send to people who may have to make split second decisions. In the back of their minds they may just perceive the eagles to be trustworthy and friendly fellows and not likely to duck, flop and play for frees. Great pick of colours as it turn out for them.
Recently the eagles returned to their wings logo away from the mish mash of colours they had for a few years...I wonder if that is part of the causation of their recent improvement in frees for/against ratio?
There are articles out there that state teams that have red as their primary colour tend to score more and win more than teams with blue for example... https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/attitude-check/201610/do-uniform-colors-matter-in-sports
There is further research that talks about this and goes into some other colour such as the primaries but states purple has no effect either way and so isn't analysed. https://www.kennisbanksportenbewegen.nl/?file=4310&m=1430485253&action=file.download
These show there is a link between the colours that teams use versus their performance and that there is also a negative perception against teams that choose dark colour like purple.
When you look at the colour psychology charts like the one below...Blue = Trustworthy, Secure, Responsible and Yellow = Friendly, Cheerful and Warm. That's a fairly powerful message to send to people who may have to make split second decisions. In the back of their minds they may just perceive the eagles to be trustworthy and friendly fellows and not likely to duck, flop and play for frees. Great pick of colours as it turn out for them.
Recently the eagles returned to their wings logo away from the mish mash of colours they had for a few years...I wonder if that is part of the causation of their recent improvement in frees for/against ratio?
You would think so. Unfortunately sometimes this is not the case.
Exhibit A for the prosecution: Round 2, 2017. West Coast v St Kilda at Subi.
St Kilda absolutely dominated the first half of the game and went in at halftime with a mere nine point lead, 8.12 to 8.3. Their 20 scoring shots to 11 advantage was mirrored in almost every statistical category bar one. The free kick count was 13-2 in West Coast's favour.
Despite constantly being second to the ball, only one West Coast player (Mitchell) was penalised during the entire first half. The other twenty one West Coast players did not concede a single free kick between them.
The Saints' inaccuracy in front of goal was certainly costly, but the lack of support they received from the umpires was bizarre.
wow imagine the melt from plugger
I really hope that the club approached the AFL about the umpiring on the weekend. They owe it to the supporters if nothing else. You have to wonder how Bondy would start off his phone call "Umm, sorry to intrude, but could we not have those umpires again.. they are actually cheats!"
Nightrain
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I think people are getting hung up on the free kick count to defend a win or loss. No-one can argue about the obvious frees (eg OOB on the full). I think where the frustration lies is the Dubious Free Kick Count. Those frees which are paid but aren't really there and those which are there but aren't paid. And I disagree, I think they can have a considerable effect.
For instance;
- Jack Darling got 3 touches the whole game (maybe a bit of an exaggeration) for 3 goals, all from free kicks which could be considered dubious. The first looked like they were holding each other. The third was for blocking at a marking contest (which darling was not going to get to), which is rampant in the game and which Hurn did to Kersten only 5 minutes earlier down the other end.
- McCarthy tackles Yeo in the first minute of the game, clearly holding the ball, called play on.
- Josh Kennedy shrugs off a tackle, goes head first into a second tackle which sticks, clearly holding the ball. Called play on, Kennedy then gets rid of the ball suspiciously which LeCras picks up and scores a goal.
- LeCras takes a mark on the forward 50m. Whilst deciding who to kick to he visibly takes steps to his left and should be considered off his line and called to play on. He's not. Spurr follows his sideways movement and if you care to watch the replay you will see he did not encroach over the mark, yet he is deemed to have and a 50m penalty is given which results in a goal.
- Fyfe receives a handball in the defensive 50 only to be tackled within a micro second and have the ball pinned to him. Sure, you will argue he made no attempt as his free arm was being used to fend off other WCE players but there was no way the ball was coming out while Priddis had both arms wrapped around the ball and one of Fyfe's hands. Logic would dictate that he had no prior and a ball-up should result, yet holding the ball was called which resulted in a goal after Lachie Neale gives away 50m.
- McCarthy and Wellingham in a sprint towards an open Eagles defensive 50. McCarthy soccers the ball forward with Wellingham in close pursuit. As both approach the ball a second time Wellingham clearly pulls McCarthy back and off the ball, then runs away with it as McCarthy is left pleading for a free. Freo got pinged for a similar thing, except it wasn't as obvious, only the week before against Norht Melbourne (Hrovat I think got the free then kicked early to an unmarked team mate deep in the forward 50 resulting in a goal).
All dubious calls which resulted in a 7 goal differential to your team (ignoring the last one) assuming McCarthy kicks straight from 35m out.
Regardless of what the advertised free kick count was, it is the Dubious Free Kick Count that is the bone of contention and where these frees are given or not given. You will always see umpires try and even the ledger at the end once the game is out of reach and give frees usually in cold zones (the back half), so the heat is not on them come Monday morning, which is another reason the free count can't be used in an argument.
I think a lot of Freo supporters concede we were not the better team on the night and would probably have lost regardless but it is these dubious frees and their location that really irk us. Surely you would agree to some of those decisions on my list above.
And if you're thinking of citing the Grey-Wellingham 50m penalty and goal I would argue that Grey did not go off his line (unlike LeCras) and that Wellingham went early prior to play on being called. But even so, you still had the rub of the green when it came to Dubious Frees.
It spins me out how the game can stop for minutes to see if a ball had shaved a post or whether the dirt on a fingernail visibly changed the direction or spin of a ball during a goal referral, however umpiring stuff-ups can result in goals and not a second thought is given. Given the choice, I would rather umpiring decisions given the video referee blow torch than goal line scrambles. At least against your mob anyway.
Interesting set of figures, thanks. I think my point stands.
It shows that half the games have interstate home umpires. I bet the number is greater in Melbourne. That's certainly enough to significantly contribute to the proven interstate factor. We know one umpire can have a great influence by the number of their calls (eg Pannell in that Bulldogs game) or even set the tone for the others.
Plus, the fact that the AFL is indeed now flying 3 umpires interstate at times shows they are concerned by the issue, or at least the perception. The randomness of those home/away umpire numbers suggest to me that the AFL is either building up data to test whether home umpires affect calls, or is deliberately scrambling the stats.
All this focus on the field umpires ignores the influential head umpire in the stands who is giving directives throughout the game. Their power to, say target that Greene or Ballantyne stuff, must have a substantial influence on the final number of decisions and we have no idea what motivates them.
Purple Jesus
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We're a no excuses football club that makes its own luck, so no we would've just accepted it and moved on.
In this specific case, it's not an excuse, it's a statement of fact that those umps were terrible last weekend....we did not play the better footy and would still have lost, but geez they were bad!
So was it Mayne alone that cost us the game?
No? Then why are you talking about Mayne? We should only talk about the 1 single thing that caused us to lose. If there are multiple reasons as to why we lost, then we shouldn't talk about any of them.
P.S. That was a pretty ******* obvious free kick.
There was also the Mitchell throw in the middle of the ground that was lead to a goal. There was also the McGovern "man in front" against Fyfe kick that was a clear Sheridan mark, called play on and josh hill goals.
This is just off the top of my head and I'm sure there are others.
What is everyone's thoughts on game style and the way it affects free kicks. Certainly over the last few years the AFL has tried to adjust the laws of the game to create a more free flowing game with less stoppages higher scores yada yada yada.
Now atm a lot of the focus from the umpires is around deliberate out of bounds, blocking, holding, not having eyes for the ball & manning the mark etc. This doesn't translate well for the more negative game styles. Remember a few years back there was these coaching forums to address congestion. The AFL by changing the laws of the game and and putting it under the microscope have in essence manufactured the whole thing which directly affects the most defensive side in the competition the most so has this created the discrepancies?
In 2015 no one wanted to see a negative style of footy succeed because the AFL were working so hard to stamp it out (Its probably just as well we wouldn't of won without Pav & Fyfe anyway). Getting back to the business model and growing the game the AFL needed to control the image of the sport and adjudication is how they control it.
The questions I have are does this mean the umpires treat the more defensive teams infringements more harshly say if they 50/50's etc. Has there been a message from the AFL to the umpires to focus on particular team or players for closer scrutiny?
And how much has this had an affect on the free kick count since Ross has been in charge compared to say Harvey? And is it going to change for Freo now they are attacking more? (Result on the weekend doesn't suggest it has but Derbies can always be considered an outlier).
Maybe this is all tin foil hat stuff but I reckon behind the scenes the AFL know's exactly what its doing (except for the MRP Lolz). It employs too many people to not have a hand in everything and the media wont dare bite the hand that feeds. Anyway that's my rant out the way for tonight.
Now atm a lot of the focus from the umpires is around deliberate out of bounds, blocking, holding, not having eyes for the ball & manning the mark etc. This doesn't translate well for the more negative game styles. Remember a few years back there was these coaching forums to address congestion. The AFL by changing the laws of the game and and putting it under the microscope have in essence manufactured the whole thing which directly affects the most defensive side in the competition the most so has this created the discrepancies?
In 2015 no one wanted to see a negative style of footy succeed because the AFL were working so hard to stamp it out (Its probably just as well we wouldn't of won without Pav & Fyfe anyway). Getting back to the business model and growing the game the AFL needed to control the image of the sport and adjudication is how they control it.
The questions I have are does this mean the umpires treat the more defensive teams infringements more harshly say if they 50/50's etc. Has there been a message from the AFL to the umpires to focus on particular team or players for closer scrutiny?
And how much has this had an affect on the free kick count since Ross has been in charge compared to say Harvey? And is it going to change for Freo now they are attacking more? (Result on the weekend doesn't suggest it has but Derbies can always be considered an outlier).
Maybe this is all tin foil hat stuff but I reckon behind the scenes the AFL know's exactly what its doing (except for the MRP Lolz). It employs too many people to not have a hand in everything and the media wont dare bite the hand that feeds. Anyway that's my rant out the way for tonight.
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DannyTheDoorman
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How do you come up with the view that Umpires are "cheats". How can an umpire benefit from a split second decision?
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You raise some interesting thoughts.
Is the AFL is driving some of the discrepancies in free kicks?There have been changes in interpretation by the Umpires, and changes in rules by the Rules Committee. Innovations by coaches help them to win, but can change the look and attractiveness of the game, and the AFL is working to correct that. More free kicks reduce congestion.
Certain teams eg Fremantle of 2015-6, Sydney of 2005 get tarred with the destroying football brush. This is mostly media driven: I reckon Geelong and West Coast have done more to tarnish football with their simulating to gain free kicks, but the wheels of change in that area have been very slow.
You are right with the focus being about rules and rule interpretations being about congestion. I don't agree with there being a focus on the blocking rule though: that seems to be let go completely except for a couple of dubious ones that look exactly the same as the ignored ones.
I don't think the evidence for AFL driving free kick differential is there:
The comment by the umpire about Ballantyne in the 2015 preliminary final.
The free kick differential in the first few rounds of 2015 for Fremantle compared to the rest of the season.
Total numbers of free kicks have increased somewhat over the last 4 years.
It's not much really.
It's hard to use the statistics on the front page to look at whether offensive teams are getting easier umpiring than defensive teams, because over 17 years teams change their styles a lot. And the 2016 Western Bulldogs style was based on winning good clearances from stoppages and having stars to finish off, which is similar to what Freo were trying to do. Yet the Bullies did fine with the free kick count.
Maybe someone has recorded the types of free kicks paid in games and an analysis of that could be made.
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Umpires could have a pre conceived plan to pay all free kicks to one side and miss important e.g. in front of goal frees to the other side. Its not hard to rig free kicks.
Well can you explain some of the non decisions on the weekend? I can't. How can Elliot yeo dance around 2 players, get tackled and it's play on? Josh Kennedy run down from behind... play on, sam Mitchell, the most blatant one handed throw you have ever seen, right in front of the umpire.. play on. Nat fyfe is being tackled, as he receives a ruck tap, with no prior at all, ball is wrapped up in the tackle.. holding the ball. If the poor decisions went both ways, I would have more leniency, but they didn't. You can't tell me umpires don't talk amongst themselves.
No arguing that some calls were rubbish in the derby, but do you honestly thing the umps are cheating? And not that there a shocking calls each way every week.
If you think they are out and out cheating, are you thinking that its more their love for west coast? or their hate for Freo? Or both? Is the cheating only going in derby's?
The eagles getting favoritism seems to be a massive topic, and I am wondering if it's a view of just freo fans or the entire comp? Why don't the ump continue to give us free kicks away from home?
For the sake of respecting your board lets not debate they free kicks, lets all agree that we are reviving preferential treatment, why is it the case, and why doesn't extend to interstate. Or What have freo done to the umps to get such bad treatment.
It does extend to interstate in as much as you have a very minor FA disadvantage compared to most other teams
So all of the umps in the AFL are bias towards west coast?
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Seems like it.
Why is that?
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You don't follow the interstate media? The WC free kick plus ratio over all other sides was all over the media after the Saints game. The WC free kicks tally is a talking point all over the AFL states not just Freo fans.
The Umpiring thread.
Been happening since 2000 by the looks.
Massive outliers...and seems to be every year...
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