No Oppo Supporters The Umpiring thread.

PurpleEyes

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Where can I look up those stats? Do you know the for v against? Because this year we are averaging roughly 3 less than most, interesting to see if the differential over the long term were kicks paid to west coast or kicks against.

West Coast should share the magic potion with Freo to screw the vics.

I have used afltables to dump team summary stats in to Excel, specifically Frees For and Against and then calculate the FF-FA for the Free Kick Differentials.
See the link for the 2017 stats, which currently show West Coast with +25 (currently the 2nd best), Freo have -11 after 7 Rounds.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/2017s.html

... "share the magic potion" ... I'd like that.
 

Carnthedockers

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The free kick count suggest we are both pretty much inline with each other of for v against. And are both pretty much inline with the rest of the comp.

Are we now talking "quality of free kicks".

I don't watch enough of Freo to comment.

I just think supporters can blow things up to be bigger than they are in real life. On all sides of football.
Does this help?
 

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Nightrain

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You are more than entitled to your opinion.

In a nut shell, you think the AFL let the umps favor the Eagles, but only at Subi.

And allow the umps to ream Freo on the reg?

Do you have a reason why the AFL would let this happen?

And it's not shown just by the free kick count, it's the ones that are not paid, and the location of the ones that are paid.
I feel like I'm on the Quack's couch.

The best answer I can give you is for you to re-watch the game as I suggested and you can make up your own mind.

I note you ask everyone a lot of questions. What's your opinion? Do you think the Eagles get favoured at home? If so, why is this? What do the AFL have to gain from this? Do you think that the umpiring at the end of the Eags-Saints was a little suspect? I noticed a few calls there that a neutral supporter could only describe as interesting/suspect.

All I know is that we have had close wins this season and some bad losses. In the win against the Roos I came out feeling like we had the rough end of the Contentious Decision count. The Cats loss I don't recall having that feeling. The Power same. The Dees seemed like a fairly umpired contest in which I don't remember the umpiring (the way it should be) and same with the win against the Bulldogs. I have no idea what the advertised Free Kick Count was for each of those games but feel free to do your own research. Again, it's the Contentious Free Count that leaves a bad taste in the mouth and what is remembered. Let go of the advertised free kick count. It is a useless stat.
 
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JohnW

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I feel like I'm on the Quack's couch.

The best answer I can give you is for you to re-watch the game as I suggested and you can make up your own mind.

I note you ask everyone a lot of questions. What's your opinion? Do you think the Eagles get favoured at home? If so, why is this? What do the AFL have to gain from this? Do you think that the umpiring at the end of the Eags-Saints was a little suspect? I noticed a few calls there that a neutral supporter could only describe as interesting/suspect.

All I know is that we have had close wins this season and some bad losses. In the win against the Roos I came out feeling like we had the rough end of the Contentious Decision count. The Cats loss I don't recall having that feeling. The Power same. The Dees seemed like a fairly umpired contest in which I don't remember the umpiring (the way it should be) and same with the win against the Bulldogs. I have no idea what the advertised Free Kick Count was for each of those games but feel free to do your own research. Again, it's the Contentious Free Count that leaves a bad taste in the mouth and what is remembered. Let go of the advertised free kick count.

After being a member for roughly 20 years, there are plenty of times leaving subi we had been robbed, and plenty of times I thought we got some home cooking. I would guess that my eagles bias influenced my feelings every single time.

Other than I think the 2005 1st final against Sydney where Stenglein got a free kick from some bizarre incident where he was shepherding the man on the mark, do I think the ump influenced the to the point of a win or a loss.

I think most home crowds get the umps leaning towards the home side and that's it. I cant remember of the top of my head about the eagles v the saints other than they should of flogged us if they kicked straight. Im sure if I sit and go through any game I will find missed calls both way and calls that shouldn't have been made, do I think this is a result of an ump bias no i don't.

Off the top of my head I can think of a free kick the Zeebel should have been awarded for a high tackle in the freo v north game that could be considered crucial. Do I think the umps were bias toward freo for missing that one, no of course not they just stuffed up.

That shocking deliberate against one of your players, again I don't think was bias it was just a shocking call.

I don't give the ump enough credit to be plotting and planning some league wide bias to favor a certain team because it's good for the AFL because they could end up with more media dollars. I think game style and player traits is a far more reasonable explanation.
 

Clems Knee

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The free kick count suggest we are both pretty much inline with each other of for v against. And are both pretty much inline with the rest of the comp.

Are we now talking "quality of free kicks".

I don't watch enough of Freo to comment.

I just think supporters can blow things up to be bigger than they are in real life. On all sides of football.

This part is factually incorrect. The free kick count does not suggest that Freo are anywhere near the Eagles in frees for and against. Over 17 years if there wasn't a bias, random differences would have evened the results out. It is extraordinary that the difference is so pronounced. West Coast get a significant advantage over all other teams. Their home advantage is even greater.

Your claim that there are plenty of times that you've left Subiaco thinking you were robbed means nothing. They are anecdotes. The stats show that there is a positive free kick differential that can only be attributed to "being West Coast" and not to being a home crowd, or playing an away team or being a better contested footy team.

The stats are there for you on the first page (towards the bottom). You need to accept that West Coast get a clear and consistent advantage over all other teams in the AFL. And it's nothing to do with the quality of the team or the loudness of the crowd. If you don't accept that, you are lying to yourself.

Once you have accepted this proven fact, we can discuss why West Coast get this advantage.
Has the club had a focus on umpiring for a long time, so they select cleaner players and uniquely train players in the art of playing to the rules better than anyone else?
Do the players have relationships with the Western Australian Umpires?
Does the AFL support West Coast over all others (it beggars belief why they would want West Coast to succeed and not Adelaide or Collingwood)
Is there some other rational explanation that doesn't involve cheating?
 

Nightrain

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After being a member for roughly 20 years, there are plenty of times leaving subi we had been robbed, and plenty of times I thought we got some home cooking. I would guess that my eagles bias influenced my feelings every single time.

Other than I think the 2005 1st final against Sydney where Stenglein got a free kick from some bizarre incident where he was shepherding the man on the mark, do I think the ump influenced the to the point of a win or a loss.

I think most home crowds get the umps leaning towards the home side and that's it. I cant remember of the top of my head about the eagles v the saints other than they should of flogged us if they kicked straight. Im sure if I sit and go through any game I will find missed calls both way and calls that shouldn't have been made, do I think this is a result of an ump bias no i don't.

Off the top of my head I can think of a free kick the Zeebel should have been awarded for a high tackle in the freo v north game that could be considered crucial. Do I think the umps were bias toward freo for missing that one, no of course not they just stuffed up.

That shocking deliberate against one of your players, again I don't think was bias it was just a shocking call.

I don't give the ump enough credit to be plotting and planning some league wide bias to favor a certain team because it's good for the AFL because they could end up with more media dollars. I think game style and player traits is a far more reasonable explanation.
Yeah well I could make a list of other decisions in the North game that went against us, some leading to goals, but it would be an exercise in futility.

As Dockers fans could be considered bitter, complaining about umpiring in a game in which we lost, are you suffering from the opposite? Perhaps you're not seeing the favouritism because your team is winning those games?

I don't think I have called the umpires biased have I? I was just shocked at how the 50-50s or contentious calls always seemed to go your way, in positions that hurt us on the scoreboard. And it seems to be a common theme with your home games. Then we have to listen to the Melbourne Media talk about the dubious umpiring in Perth as if we get the red carpet treatment from the umps as well.

Whether there are umpires with links to your club, somebody at the AFL owes Nisbett a favour, underworld bikie links, betting syndicates or just plain good luck I have no idea. But I do think umpires go into games with pre-conceived impressions of players and rather than adjudicate what they see, they adjudicate what they believe even if their eyes don't agree.
 

JohnW

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That could be the case re us winning i guess.
I just havent seen it in my time as an eagles memeber, my 2 years as a dockers member, or any of the vic based games i have been to. You answered my question, and i yours. We dont have to agree with each other, different opinions are what makes the world go round.

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DudleyDocker

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That could be the case re us winning i guess.
I just havent seen it in my time as an eagles memeber, my 2 years as a dockers member, or any of the vic based games i have been to. You answered my question, and i yours. We dont have to agree with each other, different opinions are what makes the world go round.

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No, that would be because it formed in the accretion disk of a cloud of hydrogen that collapsed down from mutual gravity and needed to conserve its angular momentum. It continues to go around because of inertia.
 

Yato

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I have got to the point that in many games I am hoping we are losing the free kick count by a considerable margin at 3/4 time because you know that the umpires will try and even it up by the end of the game to avoid scrutiny. Unfortunately by this stage we have been screwed by the umpires and it is difficult to get back into the game.
 

Carnthedockers

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Yeah well I could make a list of other decisions in the North game that went against us, some leading to goals, but it would be an exercise in futility.

As Dockers fans could be considered bitter, complaining about umpiring in a game in which we lost, are you suffering from the opposite? Perhaps you're not seeing the favouritism because your team is winning those games?

I don't think I have called the umpires biased have I? I was just shocked at how the 50-50s or contentious calls always seemed to go your way, in positions that hurt us on the scoreboard. And it seems to be a common theme with your home games. Then we have to listen to the Melbourne Media talk about the dubious umpiring in Perth as if we get the red carpet treatment from the umps as well.

Whether there are umpires with links to your club, somebody at the AFL owes Nisbett a favour, underworld bikie links, betting syndicates or just plain good luck I have no idea. But I do think umpires go into games with pre-conceived impressions of players and rather than adjudicate what they see, they adjudicate what they believe even if their eyes don't agree.
Perfectly put.
 

DannyTheDoorman

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Umpires could have a pre conceived plan to pay all free kicks to one side and miss important e.g. in front of goal frees to the other side. Its not hard to rig free kicks.
For what benefit? And Pigs can fly if you believe what you have just written about rigging free kicks.
 

DannyTheDoorman

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Well can you explain some of the non decisions on the weekend? I can't. How can Elliot yeo dance around 2 players, get tackled and it's play on? Josh Kennedy run down from behind... play on, sam Mitchell, the most blatant one handed throw you have ever seen, right in front of the umpire.. play on. Nat fyfe is being tackled, as he receives a ruck tap, with no prior at all, ball is wrapped up in the tackle.. holding the ball. If the poor decisions went both ways, I would have more leniency, but they didn't. You can't tell me umpires don't talk amongst themselves.
Talk amongst themselves for what benefit?I think your a conspiracy theorist.
 
AFL Umpires do a pretty good job, especially relative to A-League.

Surely as a WA A-League fan you would remember someone taking a dive in the box to win the premiership 2 years ago? :p
how dare you mention that
 

PurpleEyes

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Talk amongst themselves for what benefit?I think your a conspiracy theorist.

You do realise that the term "conspiracy theory" came from the CIA shortly after the JFK assassination, as a propaganda label to discredit those who did not believe the official government narrative of a lone gunman. Over the years, various Gallup surveys in US have shown that only 10% to 36% of people believe Oswald acted alone. That is, the majority of the people in USA are conspiracy theorists.

So, statistically, you've got to be a very gullible person to not be a conspiracy theorist.
 

DannyTheDoorman

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I'm sure some of the interstate umpires grew up as WC supporters. Your supporter base is more wide spread than WA and is actually very strong in Victoria from memory?
Doesn't Brett Roseberry now live in Melbourne?
 

DannyTheDoorman

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You do realise that the term "conspiracy theory" came from the CIA shortly after the JFK assassination, as a propaganda label to discredit those who did not believe the official government narrative of a lone gunman. Over the years, various Gallup surveys in US have shown that only 10% to 36% of people believe Oswald acted alone. That is, the majority of the people in USA are conspiracy theorists.

So, statistically, you've got to be a very gullible person to not be a conspiracy theorist.


Thanks for your observations and you would believe in the stats but I cant believe how much energy is wasted on blaming umpires for their decision making by our supporters as against the mistakes of our players who are paid way more than the umpires.

Players aren't booed and made the subject of derision or called cheats like umpires are. Do you get booed at your workplace or had lies told about you regularly on social media about how you work no but I bet you have a go at umpires at the very least on here.

So lets say I am a conspiracy theorist otherwise you say I am gullible statistically then I have to believe it is the umpires fault that the Dockers lose games then why is everyone picking on RTB and his game plan and our delivery from half back when it is all the umpires' fault why we lose.
 

estibador

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Players aren't booed and made the subject of derision or called cheats like umpires are. Do you get booed at your workplace or had lies told about you regularly on social media about how you work no but I bet you have a go at umpires at the very least on here.

You must be new here.
 

PurpleEyes

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Thanks for your observations and you would believe in the stats but I cant believe how much energy is wasted on blaming umpires for their decision making by our supporters as against the mistakes of our players who are paid way more than the umpires.

Players aren't booed and made the subject of derision or called cheats like umpires are. Do you get booed at your workplace or had lies told about you regularly on social media about how you work no but I bet you have a go at umpires at the very least on here.

So lets say I am a conspiracy theorist otherwise you say I am gullible statistically then I have to believe it is the umpires fault that the Dockers lose games then why is everyone picking on RTB and his game plan and our delivery from half back when it is all the umpires' fault why we lose.
Pointing blame or fault for a Dockers loss entirely at umpiring, RTB's game plan or the delivery from half back would be ignorant of the fact that a game of football is made up of many acts that can affect the scoreboard.

I don't believe there are many here posting that the umpires cost Freo the game on the weekend ... but I think plenty of us are claiming that once again, the umpires helped West Coast win on the weekend (so too did Kennedy's goals, McGovern's intercept marking, Freo's lack of converting i50s to goals and many other factors).

Just because I am posting damning stats about umpiring bias has nothing to do with my beliefs on how well Freo played on the weekend. This is after all a thread about umpiring, a good place for some of us to post our strong beliefs and comments about umpires instead of posting in the game day and autopsy threads.
 

Nolo180

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Don't hate the players or the umpire's hate the game...:)

Nah but in all seriousness Freo were shite on the weekend but it doesn't mean some of the above discussion isn't valid. I think most but not all things in this thread have a small element of truth to them.

Umpiring will always be criticised its a hard caper no doubt I wouldn't want to do it that's for sure. But people are going to hypothesize when patterns of data suggest there's a trend particularly when your perceived to be on the receiving end. If it were a one off event you would just accept it for what it is. Bad luck.

U wanna hear a conspiracy. Well I bet the Victorians would be loving the fact we spend so much time fighting each other. Maybe the lopsided free kick count is to make sure the hatred remains strong ;)
 
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