The war against renewable energy

[Power Raid]

I think the debacle can be blamed on the effectiveness of The mining Lobby,Abbott and Murdoch and the impatience of Gillard and the Ego of Rudd

The mining lobby saved Australia from the Rudd wanting to insure mining losses by accepting the nations share in mining losses. That would have destroyed this nation.

Then they saved Australia from Gillards mining tax that favoured foreign ownership.

The rest is true

 

[Power Raid]

Given Gillard & Rudd were despatched by Shorten I cant see the debacle ending soon.
Yes please to Abbott losing his seat.

and add stuart robert to that list

 

[Kwality]

If you identify/ get rid of all the dicks, we'd have a bunch of well meaning novices, yep that is better than what we've got in Canberra at the moment.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The best thing for Australia is a big Labor victory controlling upper and lower house.

Dealing with minorities was a big reason for the debacle since 2007.

minor parties also gave us awesome s**t like the ****ed up GST we have (with the "good" exclusions)

 

[Hawk Dork]

Nuclear cant compete with wind


Hitachi scraps Welsh nuclear power plant plans with 400 jobs lost


While renewable costs continue to drop sharply, those for new nuclear power generation have soared, partly as a result of tighter safety rules brought in after the Fukushima disaster in 2011.

“The economics of the energy market have changed significantly in recent years,” business secretary Greg Clark told the House of Commons on Thursday.


Renewable technologies will soon require no government subsidies, Mr Clark said, adding that “renewable energy may now not just be cheap, but also readily available”.


Because of this, and despite “significant and generous” offers of financial support from the government, Hitachi believed the £16bn Wylfa Newydd nuclear project was no longer viable, Mr Clark conceded.


Instead of nuclear, “investors now favour other technologies that are less capital-intensive upfront, quicker to build, and less exposed to cost overruns”, the business secretary said in a statement that will provide a major boost for the UK’s renewable energy industry.

However he maintained that nuclear still had a role to play in the UK and defended the heavily criticised Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant under construction in Somerset.


Hinkley is currently eight years behind schedule and will cost billions more than initially planned.
When it does come online in 2025 it will lock the country into paying £92.50 per megawatt hour compared to £57.50 for offshore wind.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...on-wales-wylfa-anglesey-horizon-a8732086.html

 

[Hawk Dork]

Giant wind turbines with blades length of football pitch launched

Manufacturer says 20 of these turbines would power a city size of Liverpool for a year


A new wind turbine with blades nearly the length of a football pitch has been unveiled in the hopes it will help power the next wave of renewable energy production.


The model, which could boost electricity generation by up to 30 per cent compared to its predecessors, represents a trend of rapid turbine growth within the industry.


Manufacturer Siemens Gamesa said the new turbine, with its 94m-long blades, will be on the market within three years.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...siemens-gamesa-renewable-energy-a8734656.html

 

[Power Raid]

Nuclear cant compete with wind


Hitachi scraps Welsh nuclear power plant plans with 400 jobs lost


While renewable costs continue to drop sharply, those for new nuclear power generation have soared, partly as a result of tighter safety rules brought in after the Fukushima disaster in 2011.

“The economics of the energy market have changed significantly in recent years,” business secretary Greg Clark told the House of Commons on Thursday.


Renewable technologies will soon require no government subsidies, Mr Clark said, adding that “renewable energy may now not just be cheap, but also readily available”.


Because of this, and despite “significant and generous” offers of financial support from the government, Hitachi believed the £16bn Wylfa Newydd nuclear project was no longer viable, Mr Clark conceded.


Instead of nuclear, “investors now favour other technologies that are less capital-intensive upfront, quicker to build, and less exposed to cost overruns”, the business secretary said in a statement that will provide a major boost for the UK’s renewable energy industry.

However he maintained that nuclear still had a role to play in the UK and defended the heavily criticised Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant under construction in Somerset.


Hinkley is currently eight years behind schedule and will cost billions more than initially planned.
When it does come online in 2025 it will lock the country into paying £92.50 per megawatt hour compared to £57.50 for offshore wind.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...on-wales-wylfa-anglesey-horizon-a8732086.html

Don’t you wish journalism was based on news rather than weasel words?

 

[Frank Bunn]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bu...n/news-story/9b7ca2cc331921b653ca924df2bac7bc

 

[Baltimore Jack]

The first of eight solar farms represents what Roger Griffiths hopes is a bright future for Kerang and Victoria. Photo: Leigh Henningham
In Kerang, ‘transformative’ solar farms are a shining beacon of hope

Jim Malotwitter Reporter Jan 19, 2019

In the midday sun, heat ripples off thousands of solar panels spread over more than 100 hectares of what used to be farmland. The baking heat that made working the land so hard meant the stretch of dry grassland 15 minutes outside the north-west Victorian town of Kerang was perfect for its new use.

A three-hour, 279-kilometre drive from Melbourne, Kerang has a population of nearly 4000. The expansive solar farm nearby is the biggest integrated farm and battery site in Australia and will soon be expanded to four times the size.

“I find it quite mesmerising,” says the council’s Roger Griffiths, marvelling at the scale of the panels that glint in the sunlight. “It does have an artistic sort of feature to it.”

 

[Hawk Dork]

Don’t you wish journalism was based on news rather than weasel words?

Did you miss this bit
Hinkley Nuclear Plant is currently eight years behind schedule and will cost billions more than initially planned.
When it does come online in 2025 it will lock the country into paying £92.50 per megawatt hour compared to £57.50 for offshore wind.

 

[Hawk Dork]

View attachment 607550
View attachment 607551

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bu...n/news-story/9b7ca2cc331921b653ca924df2bac7bc

The coal Plant is just a troll that wont be able to get funding or approval

Emissions would be about a third less than those from the highly polluting Hazelwood facility.

That doesnt sound like much of an improvement for "clean coal"

Funding for the three projects will rely on the appetite of international lenders, with Mr St Baker confirming Australia’s big four banks will not be considered, given their stance against financing new coal plants.

Pretty sure he will get funding for the the pumped Hydro part in Port Augusta though

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[Power Raid]

Did you miss this bit
Hinkley Nuclear Plant is currently eight years behind schedule and will cost billions more than initially planned.
When it does come online in 2025 it will lock the country into paying £92.50 per megawatt hour compared to £57.50 for offshore wind.

The article was deliberately misleading

Starting with comments that could lead one to believe wind is reliable, with the comment "wind generates power 80-85% of the time". Firstly if it were true, only 15-20% of the time there would be no power. However it's not a reasonable statement as what % of name plate capacity are they generating when they do work?

The formula used for generating power used is also misleading as it's comparing the cost of power generation when demanded of certain power generation facilities to the cost of power generation when supplying for wind. This is an important difference and in trade terms one would be described as supply and the other price dumping. How much would it cost if wind was required to meet demand? ........ including supply when it's not windy?


My gut feel as where to from here for Britain given there operating reactors are due to shut down in 2030. Is a shift away from large scale gen 3.5 reactors from Japan to either smaller reactors built by rolls royce or but less likely turn to CGN for gen 3.5. The reason why Japan can't deliver is a major issue we are seeing around the world with our super funds.

Super funds are a massive massive business and absolutely swamp any investment opportunity they invest in. So any investment that triggers a social backlash or union backlash can result in a major call on funds due to social media. So it's not surprising a Japanese company couldn't source funding from super funds.

China on the other hand won't have that issue and with their "Model T Ford" reactor based on the "AP1000" is the most like for like replacement of Hitachi. However, the trust issue is an enormous hurdle. I'd prefer they look at the Rolls Royce solution or better still extend the lives of the current fleet and move straight to Gen 4 reactors.

Let's see how the UK goes, I'd love to see them shut down their reactors in 2030, cut themselves off the life support from nuclear france and let's see how reliable wind actually is without the spin (no pun intended).

 

[Power Raid]

Did you miss this bit
Hinkley Nuclear Plant is currently eight years behind schedule and will cost billions more than initially planned.
When it does come online in 2025 it will lock the country into paying £92.50 per megawatt hour compared to £57.50 for offshore wind.

oh and £92.50 for the first reactor and £60 after that

and as per your article on shore is £57.50 whilst the UK preferred is offshore being £113.75

Again the way the article was written and costs presented was misleading

 

[Power Raid]

View attachment 607677

good move by NZ as they have abundant clean and cheap electricity.

they might not want to pull the trigger too early though as the technology of the renewable car hasn't been settled. One wouldn't want to invest in all the infrastructure of recharging stations when the most likely winning solution will be the plug and play.

Within ten years a winning battery model will be settled on and rather recharging batteries in situ.......or even buying a car with a battery. The battery/ batteries will be like a gas bottle where one leases them. The clear advantage is long recharging times, especially on long drives versus a very quick robotic plug and play.

Source: BMW and Dyson (building an EV plant in Singapore)

 

[Hawk Dork]

oh and £92.50 for the first reactor and £60 after that

and as per your article on shore is £57.50 whilst the UK preferred is offshore being £113.75

Again the way the article was written and costs presented was misleading

I think You are confusing your on and off shores?
The reactor is already overdue by nearly a decade with the price locked in per KW
In the meantime wind generation prices keep falling

The new football field turbines will be 30% more efficient and deliver in less than a 1/3 of the time it will take to build a reactor

Hitachi did the maths and pulled out of a contract and lost a few billion pounds doing it.
They would know

 

[Kwality]

Did you miss this bit
Hinkley Nuclear Plant is currently eight years behind schedule and will cost billions more than initially planned.
When it does come online in 2025 it will lock the country into paying £92.50 per megawatt hour compared to £57.50 for offshore wind.

Convincing numbers but are they true - did you check that the article is not quoting wholesale or retail even cost of production - its the sort of nonsense that underlines why there are cynics (like me) to whom the crisis is our power bill, not the climate discussion.
Having been around for a while, I've seen many claims that a cost will fall but never eventuate.

 

[Kwality]

The coal Plant is just a troll that wont be able to get funding or approval

Emissions would be about a third less than those from the highly polluting Hazelwood facility.

That doesnt sound like much of an improvement for "clean coal"

Funding for the three projects will rely on the appetite of international lenders, with Mr St Baker confirming Australia’s big four banks will not be considered, given their stance against financing new coal plants.

Pretty sure he will get funding for the the pumped Hydro part in Port Augusta though

Agree its all talk ahead of a Jan 23 close date, what I found interesting was the despatchable power hole claim of 1000MW in Vic.

The 'gentailers' certainly dominate east coast power.

 

[Power Raid]

I think You are confusing your on and off shores?
The reactor is already overdue by nearly a decade with the price locked in per KW
In the meantime wind generation prices keep falling

The new football field turbines will be 30% more efficient and deliver in less than a 1/3 of the time it will take to build a reactor

Hitachi did the maths and pulled out of a contract and lost a few billion pounds doing it.
They would know

Onshore vs Offshore
- The cost of onshore wind power has fallen from $108 (£70.20) per megawatt hour (mWh) a year ago to $85 today (£57)
- whilst Offshore wind costs $175 mWh, according to the research, by Bloomberg New Energy Finance (£113.75 )

It is logical for offshore to be more expensive as the moorings, ease of servicing and sea spray would all play their part in increasing costs.

but this was not very clear in the misleading article



30% more efficient is incorrect
Again the article was misleading leading one to believe "The new football field turbines will be 30% more efficient and deliver in less than a 1/3 of the time it will take to build a reactor"

The truth is they are larger and thus have the capacity to generate 30% more power.

Again, it is worthwhile noting this was not made clear in the misleading article.



Hitachi
Hitachi pulled out as they wouldn't accept a rate lower than offered to other nuclear facilities. Other facilities have been offered £92.50 for the first reactor and £60 after that.

Meanwhile Hitachi were offered £75 on the first reactor and £60 after that. No wonder they are holding firm.

Again, it is worthwhile noting this was not made clear in the misleading article.



Why can't the facts be reported in an honest manner? perhaps the truth doesn't fit the narrative?

 

[Power Raid]

The coal Plant is just a troll that wont be able to get funding or approval

Emissions would be about a third less than those from the highly polluting Hazelwood facility.

That doesnt sound like much of an improvement for "clean coal"

Funding for the three projects will rely on the appetite of international lenders, with Mr St Baker confirming Australia’s big four banks will not be considered, given their stance against financing new coal plants.

Pretty sure he will get funding for the the pumped Hydro part in Port Augusta though

I'm against the concept of clean coal as it is only 1/3 better than dirty coal. A back of the envelope puts clean coal at a carbon intensity at 500g

That said, I'm also concerned about the German model which so many advocate as it to in 2035, after 45 years of trying, will have a carbon intensity of 400g-500g. Essentially 45 years of effort, billions wasted and no real improvement.

Even shifting to 100% gas would deliver a 250g-300g outcome.

Meanwhile France, Denmark, New Zealand, parts of Canada, Norway, Finland and most of South America including brazil deliver a 40g-60g solution.


So why is there even a debate?

 

[CM86]

30% more efficient is incorrect
Again the article was misleading leading one to believe "The new football field turbines will be 30% more efficient and deliver in less than a 1/3 of the time it will take to build a reactor"

The truth is they are larger and thus have the capacity to generate 30% more power.

Again, it is worthwhile noting this was not made clear in the misleading article.

Where did you get that quote from?

I've only seen it saying 30% more generation...

"The model, which could boost electricity generation by up to 30 per cent compared to its predecessors, represents a trend of rapid turbine growth within the industry."​

 

[Power Raid]

Where did you get that quote from?

I've only seen it saying 30% more generation...

"The model, which could boost electricity generation by up to 30 per cent compared to its predecessors, represents a trend of rapid turbine growth within the industry."​

The quote was Hawk Dork. He's one of the good guys on this forum but mislead by the article.

The articles were written in such a way to mislead people on prices on onshore, off shore and even the prices offered to Hitachi.

It simply doesn't help the renewables cause to constantly mislead people.

 

[Power Raid]

Just a reminder of how RELIABLE renewables are



100GW of installed capacity in wind and solar yet.................reliance is on coal and nuclear as the combined solar and wind generation is 2GW.

That's a piss weak 2% of name plate capacity. What do the "solar and wind is reliable" camp have to say about that?

 

[Hawk Dork]

Nuclear plans 'should be rethought after fall in offshore windfarm costs


Offshore windfarms are to be built for around half the price of previous ones

The government is under pressure to reconsider its commitment to a new generation of nuclear power stations after the cost of offshore wind power reached a record low.
Experts said green energy had reached a tipping point in the UK after two windfarms secured a state-backed price for their output that was nearly half the level awarded last year to Britain’s first new nuclear power site in a generation, Hinkley Point C.

Vince Cable, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, said the breakthrough should prompt a rethink of the government’s energy plans, which have pencilled in atomic plants at Wylffa in Wales, Sizewell in Suffolk and Bradwell in Essex.

“The spectacular drop in the cost of offshore wind is extremely encouraging and shows the need for a radical reappraisal by government of the UK’s energy provision,” he said.

Two windfarms – the Hornsea 2 project off the Yorkshire coast and the Moray offshore windfarm in Scotland – secured a guaranteed price for their power of £57.50 per megawatt hour (MWh) from the government.

This is far below the £92.50 awarded to Hinkley Nuclear Plant last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...power-offshore-windfarm-costs-fall-record-low
in Germany


Offshore Wind Farms Offer Subsidy-Free Power for First Time

German’s electricity grid regulator approved bids to build what will be the first offshore wind farms that depend entirely on market prices instead of government support and subsidy.

“Subsidy-free offshore wind!” Hostert said. “This is a moon-landing moment.”

 

[Power Raid]

Nuclear plans 'should be rethought after fall in offshore windfarm costs


Offshore windfarms are to be built for around half the price of previous ones

The government is under pressure to reconsider its commitment to a new generation of nuclear power stations after the cost of offshore wind power reached a record low.
Experts said green energy had reached a tipping point in the UK after two windfarms secured a state-backed price for their output that was nearly half the level awarded last year to Britain’s first new nuclear power site in a generation, Hinkley Point C.

Vince Cable, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, said the breakthrough should prompt a rethink of the government’s energy plans, which have pencilled in atomic plants at Wylffa in Wales, Sizewell in Suffolk and Bradwell in Essex.

“The spectacular drop in the cost of offshore wind is extremely encouraging and shows the need for a radical reappraisal by government of the UK’s energy provision,” he said.

Two windfarms – the Hornsea 2 project off the Yorkshire coast and the Moray offshore windfarm in Scotland – secured a guaranteed price for their power of £57.50 per megawatt hour (MWh) from the government.

This is far below the £92.50 awarded to Hinkley Nuclear Plant last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...power-offshore-windfarm-costs-fall-record-low
in Germany


Offshore Wind Farms Offer Subsidy-Free Power for First Time

German’s electricity grid regulator approved bids to build what will be the first offshore wind farms that depend entirely on market prices instead of government support and subsidy.

“Subsidy-free offshore wind!” Hostert said. “This is a moon-landing moment.”

Interesting to see the different news outlets provide very different prices

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ea...-farm-to-add-4.2-billion-to-energy-bills.html

I will see if I can find the accounts but it’s interesting that dong won’t disclose the agreements