The way forward

[Belgarion]

I've been wondering for the last couple of weeks which way should we go.

The loss of Gardiner has hurted a lot more than I initially thought, and now I expect we'll not play finals, and if we do we'
ll just be filling the spots.

So, what's the way to go? I think it's time to drop selection on "form" alone, and start giving our younger players a go and see if they can "cut the mustard," to use the old cliché.

I think that Kasey Green and Trent Carrol although they try hard, they don't have enough talent and we shouldn't persist with them. Another one who I think can't make it is Jeremy Humm, although we may have to persist a bit longer with him.

Callum Chambers probably deserves a place in the list, but I don't think any more that he'll be in our first 22.

I'm dissapointed with McDougall, he obviously has talent, but he does not put enough effort. He reminds me of Fraser Gehrig when playing for the Eagles, who didn't seem to be really interested.

Staker had a good game yesterday. Very important in my opinion that he really attacked the ball; unlike in previous occassions. He needs to put more muscle and togehter with more experience he may become an important player for us.

I have been impressed so far with the debutants this year: Beau Waters, Mark Nikoski and Brent Jones yesterday. Also with Adam Selwood who's a second year player but only played a couple last year. Seaby was also a debutant this year and has shown quite a bit, time will tell how well he develops, although big men often take longer to fulfill their full potential.

I think Paul Johnson should be given more opportunities, and also get the younger ones more experience.

By going with a policy of giving the youngsters a chance to prove themselves and giving them experience, instead of selection purely on form we may lose a couple more matches and finish lower on the table.

This is a price I would be prepared to take because, we'll give players the experience they need and can only get with game time and also by finishing lower we get better draft picks, and we all know how important they are.

I am interested to read what you guys think about this.

Belgarion.

 

[Mark Viduka]

Kasey Green - Not sure about him. He has lost form completely.
Trent Carrol - Not up to it but always gives his all.
Adam Selwood - Classy. Glad to see him get a game.
Brent Staker - PLEASE Woosha... play him FF... give him 6 weeks there and tell him thats his possie and just to keep presenting and make a contest.
Phil Matera - STOP KICKING IT TO HIM LONG. I'm sick of throwing stuff at my TV everytime we kick it high into Matera.
Travis Gaspar - He is a CHF and classy with sticky hands... just play him there.
Brett Jones - 2 weeks ago I said he should have been in the side.... and he should stay there now.
Paul Johnson - Im not convinced about him. Too 1 dimensional and thats probably why he hasn't had a game of AFL this year. His WAFL form has not been great either.
Ashley Hansen - Injury riddled... but I really like the look of him. Wonderful grab. As soon as his shoulders are fully healed and he gets some match fitness I'd be giving him a game.

 

[no1bankteller]

Re: Re: The way forward

Originally posted by Mark Viduka
Kasey Green - Not sure about him. He has lost form completely.
Trent Carrol - Not up to it but always gives his all.
Adam Selwood - Classy. Glad to see him get a game.
Brent Staker - PLEASE Woosha... play him FF... give him 6 weeks there and tell him thats his possie and just to keep presenting and make a contest.
Phil Matera - STOP KICKING IT TO HIM LONG. I'm sick of throwing stuff at my TV everytime we kick it high into Matera.
Travis Gaspar - He is a CHF and classy with sticky hands... just play him there.
Brett Jones - 2 weeks ago I said he should have been in the side.... and he should stay there now.
Paul Johnson - Im not convinced about him. Too 1 dimensional and thats probably why he hasn't had a game of AFL this year. His WAFL form has not been great either.
Ashley Hansen - Injury riddled... but I really like the look of him. Wonderful grab. As soon as his shoulders are fully healed and he gets some match fitness I'd be giving him a game.

Agree with all of the above and especially with Buffy at FF. Lets see how the boy does.

The only thing I would like to see is Green/Humm become a pure tagger. Maybe give him one more pre-season to really and see what happens. Maybe I am just overly generous.

 

[materamagic]

Staker looks good forward either FF, CHF, or making a lead of the flank depending on who it is we are playing.

If the Eagles were more direct in their forays forward they would see a bigger score and more room for the Sampi''s and Matera's of the world to crumb.

We need to open the forward line up for one of these big boys to charge out and take a good grab showing their heels to the full backs.

Woosha knows, and every player knows its the way to go yet no one wants to execute it.

It would do Matera and Sampi even more justice and not see them getting talls on them and the ball continually bombed over their heads.

Play at least 3 talls in there at any one time and have phil and ash there to crumb. Then some of our midfielders can get numbers back which is another area we fall down in. All very well to be attacking but also need defensive mentallity.

Midfielders, we would win the game every week if you all run in the direction Judd does, straight through the lines, down the spine and kick to a leading forward.

I am tired of seeing crabs zig zagging and handballing to a teammate who is crunched when he recieves because the style of play is too predictable and when a team becomes predictable its time to change the plan.

The eagles will make the eight if they follow some of the above.

I may not be qualified to advise teams, but I have seen enough to be discerned

 

[brownbob]

You know, I know, we all know

Even blind Freddy and his dog knows that we go into every games one tall short in the forward line - and I think many of us are getting ****ed off about it. How many times do we see midfielders charging forward only to see them kick it to Matera on a lead? Pathetic - Matera is a pick your pocket thief, not a marking option FGS.
I know some of you have said that Johnson hasn't been playing well in the WAFL, but geez he was brilliant in the Wizard Cup game against the Colliwobbles - he led hard up the ground all game and that is what we need now - he doesn't have to take pack marks - Gasper can do that when he gets in a bit more playtime. I think he would add another dimension to the forward line structure which is pretty much non-existent at the moment.
Four talls is the way to go with Sampi and Matera roving at their feet. Doogs and Staker are very mobile and can play flanker roles.
I also want to see Butler in this coming week.
I don't want to see Chipper in the team again.

 

[The Passenger]

we're definetaly going in too small.

We need to start playing Doogs again, and Seaby shouldn't have been dropped. Bringing Jones in is a good move too.

IMO Staker is not going to be a KPP, but more a third tall (and a very good one at that).

Adkins is a guy i have raps for but he's down at the moment and needs WAFL time.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Black Thunder

IMO Staker is not going to be a KPP, but more a third tall (and a very good one at that).

Agreed. Staker shouldnt be played at FF, he cant really take a pack mark or a strong overhead mark. What he can do though is lead very well, he knows when and where to go and is brilliant when the ball hits the deck.

However if there is a contest at half forward and a quick high kick to FF I would have no confidence in Staker to take the mark. I would much rather see Doogs at FF or the resting ruckman, be it Seaby or Cox.

 

[Mead]

Sometimes I think that its probably more correct to talk about leading forwards and contested pack mark forwards rather than CHFs and FFs- basically, we need one tall who can lead, and one who can camp out under the ball and take a grab- obviously the second type is a lot sparser than the first, but if you categorised our tall forwards from those who most commonly take it out on the lead to those who can take a contested mark, it'd look something like this

Mostly Leads
Staker
Jakovich
Johnson
McDougall
Hansen
Gaspar
Mostly Pack marks

If you play a forward line with two similar sorts of talls in the kpp roles, its easier to shut down- if forwards are just leading teams flood the half forward line to get rid of any space for them to lead into, if forwards are taking pack marks, they just tend to isolate them against their strongest defender, and drop a loose man across to intercept.

Basically, we need to play one of each in the forward line- right now, I'd say Staker/Gaspar is the best combination, but if McDougall ever gets his act together than Staker becomes a handy third option. Johnson could displace McDougall if he actually gets his act together in the WAFL, as could Hansen.

Next week, I'd say we're looking at a
Matera/Staker/McDougall
Sampi/Gaspar/Embley
forward line.

 

[brownbob]

Not bad Mead!
This the forward structure I would like to see:

Gasper Staker Matera
McDougal Johnson Sampi

Staker to lead out of the square and gasper to drop in there for the long kick - McDougal and Johnson to provide mobile targets across half forward.

 

[southjoy]

I don't trhink that you would get anyone disagreeing with the fact that our forward line is too small at times.
BUT here is John's dilemma! And ours as fans.

He has rotated a lot of taller options in the forward line this year in guys like Staker, McDougal, Jakovich, Embley, Jones, Hunter, Green,Gaspar,Cox, Seaby,Gardiner. Help me out if i've forgotten anyone.
AND he has found that although these players at times have presented themselves they do not present themselves for more than 50% of the game - they go missing.
THIS is not so much the problem but more so with the fact that our forward line is not making a contest and fighting hard to win the 50/50 ball or at least fight like hell for the 70/30 ball.
Hence the ball comes out too quickly and we find it hard to match up on the oppo players as we have just worked hard to run away from them only to see the ball come out too quickly and find their oppo.
SO Woosha plays midfielders in roles up front like Adkins and Embley and rests players like Judd and Kerr there instead of the 3rd tall.
WE need our 2nd and 3rd talls (agree with what previous posters have said about Staker) fighting hard to keep the ball in a contest in the forward line.
I also would like to see Staker playing as a 3rd tall and some backbone shown by McDougal and I believe that Woosh is giving them the opportunities. We need to see these players take them or eklse John will keep rotating untill he finds someone willing to step up and claim it. This is what he has been saying all along to the media.
The players also believe it because they also fall into the trap that when in doubt kick it to Matera because he will at l;east give us a contest. We all agree this is ludicrous but untill a tall or two show that they are willing to fight as hard to keep it in the forward line then the mids will keep kicking it to Phil.
If these players with opportunities showed the same desire as Jones, Selwood, Waters and even Lynch then we will improve.
Yours passionately for Eagles

 

[southjoy]

PS Good post Belgarion and discussions from the posters.

 

[Mead]

Originally posted by southjoy

THIS is not so much the problem but more so with the fact that our forward line is not making a contest and fighting hard to win the 50/50 ball or at least fight like hell for the 70/30 ball.
Hence the ball comes out too quickly and we find it hard to match up on the oppo players as we have just worked hard to run away from them only to see the ball come out too quickly and find their oppo.

Thats a very good point.

I think the loss of form of Rowan Jones and Chick's injury has actually had as much to do with our forward line's lacklustre performance as the lack of a tall target- last year they formed an absolutely outstanding defensive HF duo- their tackling and pressure meant that defenders simply didn't get easy possessions and didn't clear the ball out of defence easily- that makes a huge difference in the number of opportunities that Sampi and Matera get, and it of course kills us on the rebound.

 

[Belgarion]

Originally posted by Mead
I think the loss of form of Rowan Jones and Chick's injury has actually had as much to do with our forward line's lacklustre performance as the lack of a tall target.

I hadn't thought of that, and I agree that probably had an influence.

All teams have at times problems with injury/suspensions. The really good teams such as Brisbane and the Saints, or the Bombers in 2000, manage to cover for these loses because of their depth.

And depth is what we are lacking together with lack of KPP.

I still believe that the key for us is developing KP players and the players that will have a future with us. Forget the Kasey Greens, Trent Carroll, Jeremy Humm and others of such ilk. Personally I life for example how Trent Carrol works hard, or how Humm is so hard at the ball and tough to get up when he was hit with shirtfronts. But all of them have been blessed with lack of talent and should be making way for us to find the kids that do have a future, and give them some serious experience.

Belgarion

 

[Mark Viduka]

Originally posted by jod23
Agreed. Staker shouldnt be played at FF, he cant really take a pack mark or a strong overhead mark. What he can do though is lead very well, he knows when and where to go and is brilliant when the ball hits the deck.

I disagree. I wouldnt say Matthew Lloyd is a pack mark at all. Fraser Gehrig for years was told he ducked his head when marking and cant take pack marks... now look at him.

You can't just give guys 2 or 3 weeks at fullforward then throw them away for the next few games. It takes years to learn how to play FF properly... and in my opinion Staker has the total package to be a FF.

Staker is 196cm. Matthew Lloyd is 191cm. I reckon Staker moves a lot better than Matthew Lloyd does for someone 5cms taller. Staker has the #1 thing you need as a FF. Sticky hands... he has a great set of hands and can take marks.... maybe not in pack marks... but neither does Lloyd and Lloyd can kick 100 a year. Staker is also brilliant at ground level for someone his size and is a 1 grab player when the ball is on the deck...... he is also a better than EXCELLENT tackler... so when he doesnt get the ball he will keep it in the forward line... exactly what you want. The only thing not in Stakers favour is his lack of strength but he is only 20 and has years to go.

I say stick him there now.... and leave him there.. he may have some quiet games but sooner or later he will kick a bag of 6 or 8 goals in a game where our midfield dominates and he can lead..... and it will do his confidence no end of good.

The problem we have at the moment is Matera is our man FF... and the midfielders are running and looking up and know that they cant just bomb it in there because Matera will be outmarked.... because they are trying to get him on the lead they are zig zagging and just end up bombing the ball out of desperation to get rid of it before being tackled. As good as Cousins and Kerr are they do this all the time.... baulking around and end up kicking around corners. Judd doesn't... he breaks lines... and if you watch him he is the only midfielder we have who kicks perfectly to guys on a lead.... but you cant expect him to kick it 15 or 20 times a match to someone. We need a focal point and we need to know who it is.

 

[dasler]

Personally, I'd like to see McDougall playing a Riewoldt type of roll.

 

[Streaker]

Originally posted by Mark Viduka
Staker is 196cm. Matthew Lloyd is 191cm.

Staker is 89kgs Matthew Lloyd is 92kgs. Therein lies your difference.

 

[Mark Viduka]

Originally posted by West Coast Stre
Staker is 89kgs Matthew Lloyd is 92kgs. Therein lies your difference.

As I said... Stakers only weakness at this stage is his lack of strength.... but Matthew Lloyd didnt come into the league as big as he is now.. and he was still able to kick goals and learn about the game. Mark my words... Staker has Full Forward written all over him.

 

[Streaker]

Originally posted by Mark Viduka
As I said... Stakers only weakness at this stage is his lack of strength.... but Matthew Lloyd didnt come into the league as big as he is now.. and he was still able to kick goals and learn about the game. Mark my words... Staker has Full Forward written all over him.

Matthew Lloyd
1995 5 games 7 goals
1996 11 games 18 goals

It wasn't until his 3rd year that he started kicking bags of goals.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Mark Viduka
As I said... Stakers only weakness at this stage is his lack of strength.... but Matthew Lloyd didnt come into the league as big as he is now.. and he was still able to kick goals and learn about the game. Mark my words... Staker has Full Forward written all over him.

Staker though isnt the best of kicks. He is ok with his accuracy but I dont even think he can kick it 50 metres can he?

I still think Doogs is the better option for FF. Although his accuracy is sometimes questionable.

 

[Mark Viduka]

Originally posted by West Coast Stre
Matthew Lloyd
1995 5 games 7 goals
1996 11 games 18 goals

It wasn't until his 3rd year that he started kicking bags of goals.

All the more reason that we need to put him down there and give him time to grow into the role. The main thing we need is someone down there that leads well and is a target and thats what Staker is.... and we also need them to give 2nd efforts and tackle which is Staker's strong point. He is the best tackler in our side.

McDougall I love.... but I think his 2nd efforts are lacking. I'd prefer to see McDougall play along the half forward line.