Opinion The Way Forward

[Jewelsbon]

Yeah but imagine if we win in 25 and you don't bother going but sat through all the losses.

I'll cope, I'd probably have some regrets at not being there, but I'll cope.

 

[The King!]

I’ve attended 2005, 2006, 2012, 2014, 2022 and 2024.

Had tickets for 2016 but knew the umpiring fix would be in so refused to go. Unfortunately I was right. 2006 we didn’t deserve to win, 1-1 v wce felt fair. 2014 was a shocker as was 2022. 2024 takes the cake as the worst ever performance v expectation. The King!, be happy to miss us winning one, only after that will I return. Lots of my mates feel the same way, not going until trust is restored esp if Longmire remains at the helm. New coach may probably go.

Yep very understandable.

Ill keep in the guaranteed tickets so I have the option, but would I go watch Longmire stuff it up again, probably not

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

I'll cope, I'd probably have some regrets at not being there, but I'll cope.

Jewels its the most awful thing ever sitting there for the next 2hrs knowing there is no next week rather 7 months just to have a chance to get there again...

2022 was soul crushing sitting there for the next 3 quarters and the last GF i will attend if we happen to win one i can celebrate it at home.

Club has some balls with the one game wont define me shit.

 

[GoTheSwannies]

I'll cope, I'd probably have some regrets at not being there, but I'll cope.

This is where I'm at. I was there this year because I didn't want to "miss out". I won't be going next year if we make it. I'll happily watch on at a bar somewhere.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

This is where I'm at. I was there this year because I didn't want to "miss out". I won't be going next year if we make it. I'll happily watch on at a bar somewhere.

Prelims are great value we are generally in the contest at least i think our record is nuts 7-1 or something

 

[caesar88]

I'd like to see Gulden and Warner playing more forward and on the outside respectively, like they did in their first season as regulars in the 22 back in 2021.

Individually they have gone to new levels as players but in terms of how effective they are in the team, I'd take the early 2021 versions of them over the ones we've seen the last few years.

 

[Nuggetz]

I'd like to see Gulden and Warner playing more forward and on the outside respectively, like they did in their first season as regulars in the 22 back in 2021.

Individually they have gone to new levels as players but in terms of how effective they are in the team, I'd take the early 2021 versions of them over the ones we've seen the last few years.

Honestly think one of Heeney or Warner needs to be in the fwd line at all times. Both are dynamic & destructive when resting fwd.

 

[caesar88]

Honestly think one of Heeney or Warner needs to be in the fwd line at all times. Both are dynamic & destructive when resting fwd.

We can't take Heeney out of the mids. He is one of our only contested ball-winners and one of our best clearance players. He's a non-negotiable IMO.

Warner on the other hand is offering less in the mids than he is when he's in the front half, so there's almost nothing lost by playing him there and replacing him with someone who can offer more in the mids instead. It's a win/win.

 

[Kiama Chris]

We can't take Heeney out of the mids. He is one of our only contested ball-winners and one of our best clearance players. He's a non-negotiable IMO.

Warner on the other hand is offering less in the mids than he is when he's in the front half, so there's almost nothing lost by playing him there and replacing him with someone who can offer more in the mids instead. It's a win/win.

With Grundy's decline in the second half of the season we had to change our setup and I think we need to rework it again. A possibility:
Heeney was our biggest mid but I think we wore him out by the end. I would like to see him share time and role with Mills as our other big body.
Rowbottom's role changed too and I'd like to see him share time with Sheldrick in similar roles.
The third role could be shared between Warner and Jordon.
Heeney and Warner can rotate with each other forward. Jordon and Sheldrick can tag a defender or a mid. Mills can rest as an extra defender or relieve one.
Gulden, McInerney and Lloyd cover the wings.
I would like to see Mitchell used more on the inside in VFL. He's a fair size.
Adams, Corey and Cleary as good depth.
I reckon the pieces are there if used cleverly.

 

[caesar88]

With Grundy's decline in the second half of the season we had to change our setup and I think we need to rework it again. A possibility:
Heeney was our biggest mid but I think we wore him out by the end. I would like to see him share time and role with Mills as our other big body.
Rowbottom's role changed too and I'd like to see him share time with Sheldrick in similar roles.
The third role could be shared between Warner and Jordon.
Heeney and Warner can rotate with each other forward. Jordon and Sheldrick can tag a defender or a mid. Mills can rest as an extra defender or relieve one.
Gulden, McInerney and Lloyd cover the wings.
I would like to see Mitchell used more on the inside in VFL. He's a fair size.
Adams, Corey and Cleary as good depth.
I reckon the pieces are there if used cleverly.

Heeney & Rowbottom 100% need help. We often lament how much we miss JPK, and whilst JPK was great, it's worth remembering the midfielders of similar hardness and grunt that were around him for support - Hannebery, Jack, Parker, Mitchell and O'Keefe.

Who do Heeney & Rowbottom have? A purely attacking mid in Warner who offers next to nothing defensively, and a small wingman in Gulden. Parker was playing forward, Adams was sitting in the stands. It could be argued Grundy was good help in this regard, but as you say he faded badly in the second half of the year.

I agree with you that Mills & Sheldrick seem the most logical, if unconvincing at this stage, options to help, and Horse needs to make them a priority. Because there just can not be only two guys in a whole midfield group willing to do the hard stuff if we ever want to win a grand final.

 

[Kiama Chris]

Heeney & Rowbottom 100% need help. We often lament how much we miss JPK, and whilst JPK was great, it's worth remembering the midfielders of similar hardness and grunt that were around him for support - Hannebery, Jack, Parker, Mitchell and O'Keefe.

Who do Heeney & Rowbottom have? A purely attacking mid in Warner who offers next to nothing defensively, and a small wingman in Gulden. Parker was playing forward, Adams was sitting in the stands. It could be argued Grundy was good help in this regard, but as you say he faded badly in the second half of the year.

I agree with you that Mills & Sheldrick seem the most logical, if unconvincing at this stage, options to help, and Horse needs to make them a priority. Because there just can not be only two guys in a whole midfield group willing to do the hard stuff if we ever want to win a grand final.

I can't help remembering that Sheldrick monstered Horne-Francis in the U18s to the extent they shifted him forward. He doesn't have to be a saviour but I reckon he could do some of the heavy lifting. Work the rotations so each player can go harder for longer. Allow Heeney and Warner more time forward.
We need to manage Grundy better too. Not sure how, whether more rest is the go, but he got outplayed somewhat by the big men. Looked tired.

 

[kickthething]

I'll cope, I'd probably have some regrets at not being there, but I'll cope.

Not going might be the difference!!

 

[caesar88]

I can't help remembering that Sheldrick monstered Horne-Francis in the U18s to the extent they shifted him forward. He doesn't have to be a saviour but I reckon he could do some of the heavy lifting. Work the rotations so each player can go harder for longer. Allow Heeney and Warner more time forward.
We need to manage Grundy better too. Not sure how, whether more rest is the go, but he got outplayed somewhat by the big men. Looked tired.

Agreed KC. It's almost the ideal way to introduce Sheldrick into the mix. Three "big dogs" around him in Heeney, Rowbottom (feels weird calling him that) & Mills so that he can copy them without having to match them. Sheldrick learns, Heeney & Rowbottom get better support, and we'd even fiiiiinally be able to do tagging jobs in the mids with Mills there. Everybody wins! ****, I'm sold!

 

[Kiama Chris]

Agreed KC. It's almost the ideal way to introduce Sheldrick into the mix. Three "big dogs" around him in Heeney, Rowbottom (feels weird calling him that) & Mills so that he can copy them without having to match them. Sheldrick learns, Heeney & Rowbottom get better support, and we'd even fiiiiinally be able to do tagging jobs in the mids with Mills there. Everybody wins! ****, I'm sold!

Now all we have to do is sell the coaches!
Now for the forwards.
With both Heeney and Warner spending a bit more time forward (together making close to one player), two talls most of the time, Hayward and Papley we have room for another. Either a forward tagger a la JJ or an all-out attacker or a pressure forward. Maybe a combo.
But not a pure negative like Fox, much as I love him. Possibly station McLean a kick behind the ball.
That way mostly our forward line will be 2 talls, 2 mediums, 1 small and one "other".
Hopefully we'll experiment during the preseason.

 

[caesar88]

Now all we have to do is sell the coaches!
Now for the forwards.
With both Heeney and Warner spending a bit more time forward (together making close to one player), two talls most of the time, Hayward and Papley we have room for another. Either a forward tagger a la JJ or an all-out attacker or a pressure forward. Maybe a combo.
But not a pure negative like Fox, much as I love him. Possibly station McLean a kick behind the ball.
That way mostly our forward line will be 2 talls, 2 mediums, 1 small and one "other".
Hopefully we'll experiment during the preseason.

The forwards I think rolls on the back of the mids. If Horse did as you & I hope, and plays Mills & Sheldrick in the mids, that means a Warner can play forward. He can take a mark and is dangerous in 1v1s. But is fast and CAN tackle (Horse needs to crack down on him harder for his defensive efforts, or lack thereof.) Warner would basically be an even better version of what Parker was when playing forward this year.

That's already more speed at ground level inside 50. You then have Florent & Campbell, who were already in the team, and looked dangerous playing forward. Train them there over the summer and let them get even better. Both are fast, both can win ground balls, Campbell especially is good at tackling. There's some more speed and pressure at ground level inside 50, and we haven't even had to remove a tall yet.

We could remove a tall and add EVEN MORE by throwing a Cleary or Wicks in there.

It's all sooooo achievable. Horse just has to be willing. To move some magnets. To make some hard calls. Maybe he has to tell a tall that sorry we're not going with all three of you this week. Maybe he has to tell Warner and Gulden sorry you're not getting CBAs this week. Maybe he has to have a "best 26" approach and tell a Lloyd or Roberts or Jordon or McInerney that sorry one of you flankers are surplus to requirements this week. I think it's that sort of philosophy - team success over individual preference - that I'd like to see more of from Horse.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Sadly we wont hear from Longmire again till Pre-season begins in December right?

 

[caesar88]

Sadly we wont hear from Longmire again till Pre-season begins in December right?

Probably, unless he does a random radio interview or something.

But I think that's reasonable. He deserves a break like anyone else. I mean, he also deserves to be absolutely grilled, but at least when he's actually in at the club in coach mode.

 

[The King!]

Sadly we wont hear from Longmire again till Pre-season begins in December right?

Don't need to hear from him do we

 

[Kiama Chris]

The forwards I think rolls on the back of the mids. If Horse did as you & I hope, and plays Mills & Sheldrick in the mids, that means a Warner can play forward. He can take a mark and is dangerous in 1v1s. But is fast and CAN tackle (Horse needs to crack down on him harder for his defensive efforts, or lack thereof.) Warner would basically be an even better version of what Parker was when playing forward this year.

That's already more speed at ground level inside 50. You then have Florent & Campbell, who were already in the team, and looked dangerous playing forward. Train them there over the summer and let them get even better. Both are fast, both can win ground balls, Campbell especially is good at tackling. There's some more speed and pressure at ground level inside 50, and we haven't even had to remove a tall yet.

We could remove a tall and add EVEN MORE by throwing a Cleary or Wicks in there.

It's all sooooo achievable. Horse just has to be willing. To move some magnets. To make some hard calls. Maybe he has to tell a tall that sorry we're not going with all three of you this week. Maybe he has to tell Warner and Gulden sorry you're not getting CBAs this week. Maybe he has to have a "best 26" approach and tell a Lloyd or Roberts or Jordon or McInerney that sorry one of you flankers are surplus to requirements this week. I think it's that sort of philosophy - team success over individual preference - that I'd like to see more of from Horse.

I think Warner's tackling efforts are OK it's more his one-way running and standing off. Lack of pressure.
I don't mind the idea of Florent or Campbell forward but not sure how far. Again it would be good to experiment.
I think the other guy who might be OK in that pressure role is Jordon. Disciplined. Think Brent Daniels.
Another potential role would be Roberts doing what JJ has, but at the moment I think we need Roberts to take the kick-ins. I don't trust Blakey with the first kick. Love him with the second or third.
Would use Gulden, McInerney or Papley extremely rarely for CBAs. Warner a bit more but not heaps.
BTW GREAT CONVERSATION!

 

[JackHiscoxWasFast]

After a well considered and fact based dossier on the way forward, still no reply from the club.

If you don’t have an honest feedback or truth telling culture to begin with, shouldn’t be surprised no response forthcoming.

 

[Kiama Chris]

After a well considered and fact based dossier on the way forward, still no reply from the club.

If you don’t have an honest feedback or truth telling culture to begin with, shouldn’t be surprised no response forthcoming.

That isn't necessarily so JHWF. I don't expect the club to share that honest feedback (assuming that it occurs) with me or other fans. Some of it will be effing brutal. Or it should be.
That should be kept in house.
What we should see are the results.
I think we have seen two already:
1) Macca to VFL coach which should improve that significantly as well as providing development for Macca.
2) Attempting to get Dew as assistant, which would improve our coaching quality. No doubt the search goes on.
A lot of the suggestions we have made on this thread and elsewhere (many of which should be burnt into the coach's brains) are about what happens from here. Let's wait and watch.
Personally I have been a fan of Harley but he has gone further up in my estimation by DEMANDING a proper review, just as a good CEO should. For me this is a good sign that it won't be swept under the carpet.

 

[Bloods86]

That isn't necessarily so JHWF. I don't expect the club to share that honest feedback (assuming that it occurs) with me or other fans. Some of it will be effing brutal. Or it should be.
That should be kept in house.
What we should see are the results.
I think we have seen two already:
1) Macca to VFL coach which should improve that significantly as well as providing development for Macca.
2) Attempting to get Dew as assistant, which would improve our coaching quality. No doubt the search goes on.
A lot of the suggestions we have made on this thread and elsewhere (many of which should be burnt into the coach's brains) are about what happens from here. Let's wait and watch.
Personally I have been a fan of Harley but he has gone further up in my estimation by DEMANDING a proper review, just as a good CEO should. For me this is a good sign that it won't be swept under the carpet.

Has Harley demanded a proper (external) review, or did he just say they will review and more pressure put on the players, without mentioning reviewing the coaching performance and pressure on the coaches that are staying?

 

[Kiama Chris]

Has Harley demanded a proper (external) review, or did he just say they will review and more pressure put on the players, without mentioning reviewing the coaching performance and pressure on the coaches that are staying?

Who would you recommend for an external review? Genuine question. Recent past players or coaches are likely to be too close to both. Probably the only bloke I'd fully trust would be Roos but that would be a huge slap in the face to Longmire. Eade? A panel of three?
It's a really tough question IMO and a FULLY external review may not get fully honest responses through fear.
If it was me I would use Mickey O, Bolton and a past coach from outside the club like maybe Bucks to discuss in forum with the coaches what was and wasn't done re the GF, but also where things changed mid season. No players for this. A facilitator perhaps.
The players part needs to be conducted as a bloods-style review of the GF, however they used to do it, amongst the 26. Wouldn't go back to pre the finals, too far back for simple folk. Needs commitment from individuals, groups and all 26.
It would be good if at least some of those commitments could be made public. They must at least be given to the board, to show how serious they are.

 

[caesar88]

This is genuinely the first time in Horse's entire tenure - my whole time following the Swans, really - that I am not 100% sure we have a coach who is capable of holding his players to standards and making them accountable when they don't meet them.

Well, certain players...

 

[Bloods86]

Who would you recommend for an external review? Genuine question. Recent past players or coaches are likely to be too close to both. Probably the only bloke I'd fully trust would be Roos but that would be a huge slap in the face to Longmire. Eade? A panel of three?
It's a really tough question IMO and a FULLY external review may not get fully honest responses through fear.
If it was me I would use Mickey O, Bolton and a past coach from outside the club like maybe Bucks to discuss in forum with the coaches what was and wasn't done re the GF, but also where things changed mid season. No players for this. A facilitator perhaps.
The players part needs to be conducted as a bloods-style review of the GF, however they used to do it, amongst the 26. Wouldn't go back to pre the finals, too far back for simple folk. Needs commitment from individuals, groups and all 26.
It would be good if at least some of those commitments could be made public. They must at least be given to the board, to show how serious they are.

If Longmire views an external review after 3 abysmal grand final performances, as a slap in the face, then he's not the right man for the job. He and others have had multiple chances now, he either wants to learn something new or he should get out of the way.

Roos, Simpson (who was the last coach of an interstate side to win against Vic oppo, and after a then sizeable defeat a few years earlier), Bolton, Goodes, O'Keefe for some likely harsher critique etc. Marty Mattner's won a few SANFL flags as coach.

Doesn't even need to be from the AFL world.

Surely the likes of Richards and Pyke know some people who review teams that fail under pressure in the business world.

As for trust, I mean, I have zero trust in the club being able to do an internal review and come up with a successful approach for next time.