Current The Western Australian Current Trials Thread

[imho]

That's a distinctive kimono Craigos and Crow, I think it led straight back to the house. If it didn't in the investigation of the Huntingdale attack, when it featured in the press straight after as being connected to Victoria Clarke's murder, the phones would have been ringing hot.

Edit: There's no way you could deny ownership of the kimono if it was yours, next best thing you can say is that obviously it was stolen off the clotheslines. My theory is that it wasn't stolen off the clothesline, it wasn't a clean kimono. That the familial DNA everyone keeps mentioning to do with this case came from the kimono. There was no familial DNA hit in the database, no family member with a record.

hi, i'v been reading the thread, giving my occasional thanks.
we're told the Huntingdale intrusion (17.2.88) was an unsuccessful rape, but that does not mean to say the perpetrator didn't accidentally make his 'mark' on the kimono; perhaps even used it to wipe himself as he fled.
i can't add anything to debate concerning the item having previously belonged to one of his personal family members, nor as to whether or not it was stolen from a clotheline, with the exception of what i heard during media's first (and only?) acknowledgment of EE. i definitely remember very brief mention of her being quoted as having said 'she' may have at some stage had a white kimono, further quoted as having said along the lines of, regarding ongoing matters, that she would not be commenting. i'm in SA btw, and unfortunately unable to cite source - i can tell you it was audio, not written - so either tv or radio ... if radio, (likely 1325cruise)
to add any possible substance to the likelihood of what was said in that report, do we know what year his relationship with EE commenced? purchase of their fountain way home was in 91.
imho

 

[Dan Baker]

Because they like to stalk people, climb in peoples windows after dark and attempt to sexually assault the girls in their beds.

A stalking rapist breaks in in young girls windows and tries to rape them. Says something about the profile police would be looking for.


A WOMAN’S silk dressing gown stolen off a washing line 28 years ago is believed to have been the vital clue that helped lead police to finally make an arrest in the Claremont serial killer case.
It can be revealed that in 1988 — eight years before Sarah Spiers was abducted off a Claremont street — the white kimono was dropped by an intruder who broke into the home of an 18-year-old Huntingdale woman and tried to rape her.
Her screams caused him to flee and police believe the stolen kimono was accidentally dropped by the man as he ran out of the home.
http://www.news.com.au/national/cla...t/news-story/cdad7c5a6b825958b6d46cb11eb44c75

 

[Dan Baker]

1988 is 3 years prior the home purchase if Fountain way was 91, 5 houses up from the old primary school. Prior that apparently a unit was rented in Osborne Park. Id like to see if there is any unresolved murder or rape around this time in Osborne Park.
The accused was 17-18 in 1988?

You don't just go house to house hoping there is an 18 year old in a bed. Research, planning, stalking, execute rape. It says something about the criminal profile.

Stalking and rape in a home window. Very brazen indeed.

 

[Dan Baker]

In 1996 Sarah Spiers was 18. The accused was approx 25 years old? Mystery man looks 26 years old? Jane Rimmer was 23.

 

[imho]

1988 is 3 years prior the home purchase if Fountain way was 91, 5 houses up from the old primary school. Prior that apparently a unit was rented in Osborne Park. Id like to see if there is any unresolved murder or rape around this time in Osborne Park.
The accused was 17-18 in 1988?

You don't just go house to house hoping there is an 18 year old in a bed. Research, planning, execute rape

foregone conclusion - he was definitely aware of who was in that bed before the invasion.

with consideration of my comment #779 and your above link to the repeated claim of the kimono having been reported as stolen, this also has me wondering whether any possible connection between the reportee of its theft and the accused? (much like how some will commit a serious offence and report their car as stolen to avoid the consequences)

... possible scenario...
unknown to his girlfriend, he uses and loses her kimono, says it must have been stolen from the washing line and she reports it as stolen ... in doing so she unwittingly creates a diversion ... years later ... advanced DNA technology leads to reinvestigation of the "stolen" kimono which, "IF" EE had owned and reported as 'stolen', further interrogation of her circumstances in 88 might have then put him in proximity for some scrutiny & possible involvement.
imho

 

[Kurve]

Thanks Dan, I had read that I am just trying to figure out why Shelly thinks the kimono was owned by a family member. For me the simplest answer is that a relative of his had their DNA in the Police system and the match was made that way.

The simplest answer is that a relative had their DNA in the system but if that was the case, the kimono evidence wouldn't be relevant and they'd have got the hit before. The kimono evidence led them to a name. If my theory's right it fits with them starting to home in on BRE in 2015 when they realised the kimono was the key and went back through the Huntingdale file looking at the owner. They then would have had to eliminate three men from the investigation and a household, father and two brothers. All this takes time. BRE was the only eventual fit.

 

[Kurve]

And the point of the theory was? Sleuthing family members? The relevance is? Just saying.

At the end of the day. What is the demographic that would wear this type of garment? A female between 18 and 35? Where were silk kimono night gowns sourced? Woolworths? Hardly. Trip to Asia?
Hardly a winter item. Hi sister would be 15, his mother 40 odd. Prancing around in her short silk kimono in the family home. Not really.

What sort of person jumps a fence and steals a silk kimono off a clothes line? There are those that steal clothes because they have no cash. There are those that steal silk kimonos off back clothes lines because...

Dan, nobody's sleuthing innocent family members! It's said often enough BRE was found via familial DNA, I didn't suggest that, I didn't make it up out of nowhere the cops did and there's evidence a familial DNA expert was paid for his opinion on it. So how do you have a conversation about it then when the public who was at risk for nearly thirty years and well within rights to discuss it.

Also, if familial DNA was in the database there's court records somewhere which are in the public domain and you can't tell me there hasn't been a lot of people snooping through those public records looking for which relative it was. They haven't found him or her, have they?

 

[Kurve]

We might hope this is A kimono and not THE kimono being held up for the camera.




EDIT: If this is the kimono I don't think it's been washed which is a big no no for silk kimonos anyway. The material puckers around the embroidery which shrinks. If anybody's washed silk and I think this one is, they'll know it's the end of your item. I washed my ex husbands silk Tommy Bahama shirt and never heard the end of it.

 

[Dan Baker]

Accused would have been 17 -18 at the time of the attempted rape inside an 18 year old girl's bedroom. I cant recall a 17 year old girl wearing a silk dressing gown of sorts. What Im saying is, of the dressing gowns of this sort I saw, they weren't worn by teenagers. Mostly single women in late 20's
The odds of it being a family members is slim, I think.
At the end of the day, the very likely source was a relatives DNA on the criminal database who has committed a crime. In fact the neighbourhood rumour is that someone had a criminal record, so we needn't ponder over a kimono that leads us to an outcome that has already happened.

Given the research, planning, and stalking it would take to find and enter a bedroom, in an attempted rape inside a bedroom, who ever it was must have been stalking a victim ongoing for a period of time for when the opportune chance arose to enter the property. They could have been passing by over a period of months at night.

The perp must have been anticipating the girl stay quiet in absolute overwhelming fear. Scary clown style?

You would presume the living witness of the Huntingdale assault would play a big part in this. Potentially identifying the accused.

Police know the kimono was stolen from a backyard clothesline. They must have the owner of the kimono to know it was stolen off a clothesline.

Silk kimono is the key clue in the Claremont killings: Robe stolen from backyard clothesline 28 YEARS ago 'provides DNA link between serial murder case, a teen rape and the man now charged with both
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-cold-case-arrest-Bradley-Robert-Edwards.html

Also, if familial DNA was in the database there's court records somewhere which are in the public domain and you can't tell me there hasn't been a lot of people snooping through those public records looking for which relative it was. They haven't found him or her, have they?

DO you have a link to the public database?

 

[Dan Baker]

Why does it say kimono clue to brutal killing in 1988? What was the brutal killing?

Kimono clue to a brutal killing
The West Australian, Perth Wednesday February 17 1988
by Cyril Ayris

"This kimono may be the clue that helps
solve the brutal killing of Victoria Heather
Clark, 30, in Victoria Park last September.
It was dropped by a man that walked
into a Huntingdale house early on Monday
morning and lay on top of a sleeping
18-year-old girl...
The kimono is the first good clue the police
have been given in recent sex attacks in the area.
Det-Sgt Max Kiernan said the man
apparently walked into the house...."

Masters raped and murdered 30-year-old Victoria Clarke in her home on Leonard St, Victoria Park, in April 1987. David Troy Masters.

 

[Dan Baker]

Also, if familial DNA was in the database there's court records somewhere which are in the public domain and you can't tell me there hasn't been a lot of people snooping through those public records looking for which relative it was. They haven't found him or her, have they?

Dan, I've got a black silk dragon kimono I got in Singapore when I was fifteen years old and I still wear it.

So you went to Singapore when you were 15. Was that common of Gossy crew in the early 80s?
Your average working class family didn't travel that much in the 80s

 

[Dan Baker]

You could those dressing gowns anywhere over here, they're very suitable for a teenager.

They were far from common where we lived. Being similar age, none of the girlfriends or neighbourhood teenagers had them. Sisters even for that matter. Obviously you bought yours in Singapore at age 15.
Kimonos with such motifs weren't common place in the 80s. No doubt night gowns synthetic similar were mmm around.
Kimono discussion is coming into steroid status. We know it was stolen from a clothes line that police know the owner. Living Huntingdale witness will probably fill us in?
But Kimono talk is getting us no where.

 

[Kurve]

They were far from common where we lived. Being similar age, none of the girlfriends or neighbourhood teenagers had them. Sisters even for that matter. Obviously you bought yours in Singapore at age 15.
Kimonos with such motifs weren't common place in the 80s. No doubt night gowns were.

Were all your girlfriends and the neighbourhood teenagers running about in short silky dressing gowns in front of you Dan? Maybe it was a gift from someone who went overseas, I don't think it's relevant to the theory anyway. But ... if they weren't so common around Perth back then goes to finding out who it belonged to fairly quickly.

 

[imho]

it's a moot point.
harping on who else had a kimono, or from whence it came, or whether one travelled or not, is unhelpful.
FACT - it was very likely a popular souvenir/gift to bring back from overseas for self, a friend or whomever; many people from all walks of life had them and still use them ... i have several ... my working class mother, at age 45, owned and wore one in 1979!

...that is all





imho

 

[Dan Baker]

Were all your girlfriends and the neighbourhood teenagers running about in short silky dressing gowns in front of you Dan? Maybe it was a gift from someone who went overseas, I don't think it's relevant to the theory anyway. But ... if they weren't so common around Perth back then goes to finding out who it belonged to fairly quickly.

Do you have that link to the public court records you discuss? Cheers.
I can then double check the neighbour source that is was the sibling that lead to the accused's arrest.

 

[Kurve]

Do you have that link to the public court records you discuss? Cheers.
I can then double check the neighbour source that is was the sibling that lead to the accused's arrest.

It's been looked at Dan, court records and Austlii. There's one in there (which is how your neighbour probably found it) but I don't think it's the right person, they just share a common name. I dismissed it as irrelevant so didnt keep the link but if I find it later I will send it to you.

 

[Dan Baker]

It's been looked at Dan, court records and Austlii. There's one in there (which is how your neighbour probably found it) but I'm sure it's not the right person they just share a common name. I dismissed it as irrelevant so didnt keep the link but if I find it later I will send it to you.

Not my neighbour, neighbours that know the accused's family. Which is backed by newspaper sources that stated, "next came familial DNA"

Have you a link? Dont worry, Ill find and search the court records etc for your speculation that the accused stole a kimono from his own families clothes line without thinking it might have implications for his arrest if mummy rang police to say it was stolen off my clothes line after television and newspaper campaign.
The motif is rather unique. Certainly not something printed. Appears hand stitched.

The fact the male accused had possession of a female silk kimono is rather odd. I wonder if the witness will be telling us the perp was wearing a females silk kimono prior the home invasion and attempted rape.

Sounds like he expected the victim to be overwhelmed with fear and not scream for help in her own bed.

Very brazen attack considering the potential outcome if caught by an adult inside the confinement of a house. The perp must have been confident of an escape.

Wearing your younger sisters or mothers silk kimono in a rape inside someones house is beyond weird. Most blokes I know wouldnt be into wearing mummys kimono, let alone a womans gown. Imagine of you were caught? For most people busted wearing mummys kimono in a rape attempt has pretty heavy peer ramifications even for peers that may not be so opposed to sexual assault.

 

[Kurve]

Not my neighbour, neighbours that know the accused's family. Which is backed by newspaper sources that stated, "next came familial DNA"

Have you a link? Dont worry, Ill find and search the court records etc for your speculation that the accused stole a kimono from his own families clothes line without thinking it might have implications for his arrest if mummy rang police to say it was stolen off my clothes line after television and newspaper campaign.
The motif is rather unique. Certainly not something printed. Appears hand stitched.

The fact the male accused had possession of a female silk kimono is rather odd. I wonder if the witness will be telling us the perp was wearing a females silk kimono prior the home invasion and attempted rape.

Sounds like he expected the victim to be overwhelmed with fear and not scream for help in her own bed.

Very brazen attack considering the potential outcome if caught by an adult inside the confinement of a house. The perp must have been confident of an escape.

Wearing your younger sisters or mothers silk kimono in a rape inside someones house is beyond weird. Most blokes I know wouldnt be into wearing mummys kimono, let alone a womans gown. Imagine of you were caught? For most people busted wearing mummys kimono in a rape attempt has pretty heavy peer ramifications even for peers that may not be so opposed to sexual assault.

Look up, I just put the link in the above post.

 

[craigos]

I just don't see any other family members DNA being on the garment, and even if it was it's not going to make any difference to the prosecution. If his DNA isn't on it yet a family members is then what evidence is linking him to the rape? The murder, yes but not the rape (as far as I know).

All the newspaper reports are stating that it was stolen from a clothesline so if that clothesline happened to be where the accused lived we would all know by now.

Without any more evidence being released I think peoples minds are going to try and interpret every piece of information we know to the nth degree where the first theory and most obvious conclusion is probably right. Here's a guy that works for Telstra and volunteers at Little Athletics on the weekend and lives in a beyond normal suburban home. If he was some kind of criminal mastermind I would think he'd be hacking computers or doing something other than continuing on a suburban dad life.

Anyways, I think I have added all I have on this thread until more news is forthcoming. By that time I am sure the thread will be closed again

 

[annaBolic608]

You're right about the victim identifying it as not belonging to her. What I was trying to say is that doesn't mean that it is stolen though, so how do the Police know that it is stolen? For all they know the perpetrator owned this piece of clothing, so that leads me to believe that the true owner of the kimono identified it as such. It was a unique piece of clothing so would have been easily identifiable.

Not saying that the theory doesn't work (I think it would be crazy for someone to draw unwarranted attention by reporting it stolen after the fact) but maybe the Police had earlier dealings with a young man who was thought to be stealing underwear, no charges laid and back in those days it would barely be a footnote on an officers report.

Agreed. And cross contamination from the handling of that kimono shouldn't matter at all, if the relevant samples are the LNC from CG and the presumably complete Karrakatta sample, and they are what yielded the familial match in the system. It sounds to me as though the kimono was useful only insofar as they may have got a couple of suspect names of peeping toms/ snowdroppers from the old running sheets out of it. That would cross reference one name with the familial DNA match, and the context would suggest that name should be looked at closely. It sounds to me as though it was useful as an investigative tool rather than as evidence that BRE committed any of the charged offences, beyond possibly being relevant to the direction of prior good character he's entitled to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dan Baker]

I just don't see any other family members DNA being on the garment, and even if it was it's not going to make any difference to the prosecution. If his DNA isn't on it yet a family members is then what evidence is linking him to the rape? The murder, yes but not the rape (as far as I know).

The garment with the accused DNA was left at the rape scene. Familial DNA technology was used to trace the DNA on the garment left at the rape scene to a relative of the accused. So someone must have been found on the database, which using familial DNA technology lead police to the accused.
The perp had the kimono in possession when attempting rape in the girls bedroom. That links the accused to the rape attempt or sexual assault

Even if there was sibling DNA on the garment, police would not know who anyone was without the sibling or relative being on the criminal database to run the lead. Someone gave police a breadcrumb to the perp that left the kimono at the Huntingdale rapecrime scene.

The DNA is linked to other crime scenes. Cross contamination would have to be with several crimes which on the surface appears impossible because the DNA was entered onto the database at different times.
DNA swabs from the crime scene, immediately entered to the database, not stored in any room.

Retesting the accused personally further matched these crimes as a separate source. Cross contamination has been pure commentator speculation without any knowledge of process and procedure.

Familial DNA searching (sometimes referred to as “Familial DNA” or “Familial DNA Database Searching”) is the practice of creating new investigative leads in cases where DNA evidence found at the scene of a crime (forensic profile) strongly resembles that of an existing DNA profile (offender profile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling

 

[annaBolic608]

The garment with the accused DNA was left at the rape scene. Familial DNA technology was used to trace the DNA on the garment left at the rape scene to the DNA on the garment. So someone must have been found on the database, which using familial DNA technology lead police to the accused.
The perp had the kimono in possession when attempting rape in the girls bedroom. That links the accused to the rape attempt or sexual assault

Even if there was sibling DNA on the garment, police would not know who anyone was without the sibling or relative being on the criminal database to run the lead. Someone gave police a breadcrumb to the perp that left the kimono at the Huntingdale rapecrime scene.

The DNA is linked to other crime scenes. Cross contamination would have to be with several crimes which on the surface appears impossible because the DNA was entered onto the database at different times.
DNA swabs from the crime scene, immediately entered to the database, not stored in any room.

Retesting the accused personally further matched these crimes as a separate source. Cross contamination has been pure commentator speculation without any knowledge of process and procedure.

Familial DNA searching (sometimes referred to as “Familial DNA” or “Familial DNA Database Searching”) is the practice of creating new investigative leads in cases where DNA evidence found at the scene of a crime (forensic profile) strongly resembles that of an existing DNA profile (offender profile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling

I didn't realise that any rape charge had been laid in relation to Huntingdale, Dan.


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[sprockets]

Quite a few killers/serial killers put themselves into the picture as innocent bystanders. BTK comes to mind along with others that give cryptic clues, like the Zodiac killer. It might be a bit like many fire fighters being arsonists.

 

[Kurve]

The garment with the accused DNA was left at the rape scene. Familial DNA technology was used to trace the DNA on the garment left at the rape scene to the DNA on the garment. So someone must have been found on the database, which using familial DNA technology lead police to the accused.
The perp had the kimono in possession when attempting rape in the girls bedroom. That links the accused to the rape attempt or sexual assault

Even if there was sibling DNA on the garment, police would not know who anyone was without the sibling or relative being on the criminal database to run the lead. Someone gave police a breadcrumb to the perp that left the kimono at the Huntingdale rapecrime scene.

The DNA is linked to other crime scenes. Cross contamination would have to be with several crimes which on the surface appears impossible because the DNA was entered onto the database at different times.
DNA swabs from the crime scene, immediately entered to the database, not stored in any room.

Retesting the accused personally further matched these crimes as a separate source. Cross contamination has been pure commentator speculation without any knowledge of process and procedure.

Familial DNA searching (sometimes referred to as “Familial DNA” or “Familial DNA Database Searching”) is the practice of creating new investigative leads in cases where DNA evidence found at the scene of a crime (forensic profile) strongly resembles that of an existing DNA profile (offender profile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling

Not necessarily.
Theory: The person they found on the database that matched the garment was indeed familial DNA but it was BRE's as the relative of the person who was on the garment. A reverse familial DNA match if you like. Many have made the assumption a relative of BRE's was in the database and found a convicted sex offender with the same first and last name, he's around the same age and he happens to live in Perth. He isn't relevant to this but if he was a lot of other questions would be raised as to how he got a job working in health in a vulnerable community. He isn't BRE's relative.

 

[Dan Baker]

Quite a few killers/serial killers put themselves into the picture as innocent bystanders. BTK comes to mind along with others that give cryptic clues, like the Zodiac killer. It might be a bit like many fire fighters being arsonists.

Got one in mind?