Conspiracy Theory There actually are people (State and non-State actors) who ARE brainwashing you, and most of you don't actually know it's happening.

[owen87]

Before money large groups of people didn't function the way they did afterward.

Before money large groups of people as we know it didn't exist.

You can decide whether them existing is a good or bad thing, but what worked with significantly smaller populations doesn't work with large ones.

 

[ferball]

Mal its hard to come away from reading this without thinking what you are saying is:

"If you question authority the Russians will get your brain and turn you into a brainwashed pete Evans clone."

 

[Malifice]

You're as cooked as the people you're trying to reach with this thread.

That's your response?

I literally posted you overwhelming evidence of Russian disinfo, and all you can do is express classic symptoms of the Dunning Krueger effect?

There is a reason Russia (and China) have a giant firewall around their countries internet, and dont allow Facebook or similar platforms to operate there, instead forcing its own people to use government-controlled versions (VK in Russia).

VK (service) - Wikipedia

VK (short for its original name VKontakte; Russian: ВКонтакте, meaning InContact) is a Russian online social media and social networking service based in Saint Petersburg. VK is available in multiple languages but it is predominantly used by Russian speakers.

It isolates their own people from foreign (and the Russians own) disinfo, while also enabling the Kremlin to brainwash their own people on those same platforms they own, while also enabling them to directly collect metadata on their own people, which they can then use for propaganda purposes.

Note how VK is based in St Petersburg?

Guess where the IRA trolls and Kremlin disinformation bureau is also based?

 

[ferball]

Before money large groups of people as we know it didn't exist.

You can decide whether them existing is a good or bad thing, but what worked with significantly smaller populations doesn't work with large ones.

maybe...

Large populations came together all over the prehistoric world for all sorts of reasons. The Bunya and Bogong Moth festivals in pre invasion Australia are examples of that.

Australia is a continent, and back in the day they were industries and international trade. Its why artifacts can be found in places where the materials needed to produce them are non existent and why infrastructure like the eel farms in western Victoria were built.

 

[Malifice]

Mal its hard to come away from reading this without thinking what you are saying is:

"If you question authority the Russians will get your brain and turn you into a brainwashed pete Evans clone."

No, feel free to question authority. I do it all the time.

Just don't drink the Russian Kool Aide while you do so, or you'll come out the other end like a brainwashed Pete Evans clone, believing in some combination of Qanon, Hunter Bidens laptop, Anti-vaxx s**t, White supremacist conspiracy theories about 'bankers and George Soros', Trumps divinity or worse.

I.e you'll get spat out the other side looking like BlueE

 

[ferball]

That's your response?

I literally posted you overwhelming evidence of Russian disinfo, and all you can do is express classic symptoms of the Dunning Krueger effect?

There is a reason Russia (and China) have a giant firewall around their countries internet, and dont allow Facebook or similar platforms to operate there, instead forcing its own people to use government-controlled versions (VK in Russia).

VK (service) - Wikipedia



It isolates their own people from foreign (and the Russians own) disinfo, while also enabling the Kremlin to brainwash their own people on those same platforms they own, while also enabling them to directly collect metadata on their own people, which they can then use for propaganda purposes.

Note how VK is based in St Petersburg?

Guess where the IRA trolls and Kremlin disinformation bureau is also based?

Do you think I'm saying there's no such thing as Russian disinfo?

 

[Malifice]

Do you think I'm saying there's no such thing as Russian disinfo?

No, I think you're drastically underplaying it though, and trying to draw a false equivalence to US propaganda.

 

[Malifice]

ferball do you honestly think our Defense Signals Directorate and ASIO have spooks that sit there, creating fake troll accounts, and pushing disinfo on the Aussie population (or elsewhere)?

They sure as s**t monitor the internet for foreign interference (and paedos, and domestic terrorists, and similar) but they're not sitting there trying to cook our own domestic population, or any other population for that matter either.

Even if they wanted to on some level, they couldn't because the internet (and the social media companies) in Australia are in private hands (not controlled and owned by the State), and we have an open liberal Democracy (and a free and independent media) where any government policy to do so, would be on the front page of the papers tomorrow.

You cant equate the Russian disinfo campaigns, and use of metadata (both domestically, and abroad) with ours, or the USA's. They're in no way comparable. We monitor the internet and seek to block disinfo from foreign actors (and even that we do poorly). The Russians do a lot more than that.

 

[owen87]

maybe...

Large populations came together all over the prehistoric world for all sorts of reasons. The Bunya and Bogong Moth festivals in pre invasion Australia are examples of that.

Australia is a continent, and back in the day they were industries and international trade. Its why artifacts can be found in places where the materials needed to produce them are non existent and why infrastructure like the eel farms in western Victoria were built.

You're talking tiny population sizes in comparison to the modern world though, and short term gatherings versus living in close proximity long-term are also vastly different.

What works in a relatively small population of people is unlikely to hold up when you're talking about hundreds of thousands, millions, or billions of people.

 

[Malifice]

You're talking tiny population sizes in comparison to the modern world though, and short term gatherings versus living in close proximity long-term are also vastly different.

What works in a relatively small population of people is unlikely to hold up when you're talking about hundreds of thousands, millions, or billions of people.

Actually its the latter, and he's right.

The examples he was putting forward though are examples of trade though. Individuals, trading things of value, to other individuals for things the latter value, outside of any State regulation.

So a free market, unregulated by any State.

 

[owen87]

Actually its the latter, and he's right.

The examples he was putting forward though are examples of trade though. Individuals, trading things of value, to other individuals for things the latter value, outside of any State regulation.

So a free market, unregulated by any State.

Which is suddenly at odds with his views on capitalism...

 

[Malifice]

Which is suddenly at odds with his views on capitalism...

Socialism would be the leader(s) of that tribe/ group of people (the State) controlling how that trade happens, what can be traded, and setting the value of the items so traded, and then deciding what happens with the traded items.

A Free market lets the people in the tribe/ group of people trade among themselves, and other people, for what they want, and when they want it, and do what they want with the thing traded, and place their own values on the items so traded.

It's crazy. ferball seems to oppose Government control vehemently and be extremely concerned about State tyranny. Yet he also supports Socialism.

Those positions are not logically compatible.

 

[ferball]

The reason Meta have a former CIA cybersecurity person in its election integrity section, is because that person has knowledge of what the Russian disinfo campaign is, how to spot it, who the actors are, and how to try and reduce its impact.

Meta of course dont want to totally restrict the disinfo campaign, because it's good for Meta (it encourages engagement on the site).

The CIA has been involved in Meta and its earlier incarnations since the outset.

 

[ferball]

No, I think you're drastically underplaying it though, and trying to draw a false equivalence to US propaganda.

That's cool. I think you're doing the opposite.

But we can work with that to address your concerns in this thread yeah?

Because imo what you're talking about in the op is only possible because people are so mired in confirmation bias that they are looking for reinforcement of views not necessarily looking for anything else.

 

[ferball]

Socialism would be the leader(s) of that tribe/ group of people (the State) controlling how that trade happens, what can be traded, and setting the value of the items so traded, and then deciding what happens with the traded items.

A Free market lets the people in the tribe/ group of people trade among themselves, and other people, for what they want, and when they want it, and do what they want with the thing traded, and place their own values on the items so traded.

This ain't how it works.

It works differently in nearly every situation but in my experience its a much more individual process. A tribe isn't a state either. People in tribal situations have significantly more autonomy than they do even in a state like Australia.

Its not necessarily a market and not even necessarily trade with any value assigned to stuff. Adam Smith's idea of pre historic pre monetary trade is a fantasy based in his imagination not in any data found anywhere. The idea of mutual obligation is more of a driver than the idea of fair exchange of value.

This is my experience of indigenous Australian pre invasion (and current) "trade" and it appears to occur in Asian inddigenous groups (according to my brother who studied anthropology and spent time in Indigenous/tribal communities in Asia.) Governence and the state aren't necessarily the same thing. A fundamental part of any state is the institutional monopoly on violence. But this is getting way off topic.

It's crazy. ferball seems to oppose Government control vehemently and be extremely concerned about State tyranny. Yet he also supports Socialism.

Those positions are not logically compatible.

You're the one who invoked Dunning Krueger. Ironic hey.

 

[ferball]

This is backed up by conversations I've had with indigenous people from nearly every continent. in rare occasions formal value exchange happens but often the driver is the principle of mutual aid and obligation. The very opposite of self interest and competition. no suprise someone like Adam Smith missed that tho coming from such a barbaric society as Imperial United kingdom was in the 18th century.

 

[ferball]

ferball do you honestly think our Defense Signals Directorate and ASIO have spooks that sit there, creating fake troll accounts, and pushing disinfo on the Aussie population (or elsewhere)?

No I don't.

The US is a different story tho.

 

[ferball]

Which is suddenly at odds with his views on capitalism...

Capitalism and trade aren't the same thing. Capitalism is a very specific form of resource control.

 

[owen87]

Capitalism and trade aren't the same thing. Capitalism is a very specific form of resource control.

Which brings us back here again;

what worked with significantly smaller populations doesn't work with large ones

 

[Malifice]

A tribe isn't a state either.

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

A state is a centralized political organization that imposes and enforces rules over a population within a territory.

Tribes have leaders (chiefs, or councils of elders etc). They have laws, and penalties for breaking those laws. They enforce those laws over other members of the tribe, over a certain territory of the tribe.

Name one tribe in history that lacked laws and customs, and a mechanism for enforcing them.

Just one.

 

[Malifice]

The CIA has been involved in Meta and its earlier incarnations since the outset.

I must have missed that in the movie 'the Social Network'. Exactly where in that film did the CIA get involved?

 

[Malifice]

Capitalism and trade aren't the same thing. Capitalism is a very specific form of resource control.

Dude you're technically correct, but lets stop you there.

Capitalism is ''an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit''

capitalism - Google Search

Socialism is "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole (the State)''.

socialism - Google Search

The difference lies in (private hands, and outside the States control, for people to generate profit) or (not in private hands, and subject to strict controls by the State, profit doesnt matter).

Do you think the means of production, distribution, trade and industry should be owned and controlled by:

1) The State, with legal penalties prohibiting private ownership, control or participation in production, distribution or trade of goods and services.
2) Private entities (people, partnerships, collectives, corporations) free to do with those goods and services what they want free from government control (but otherwise subject to regulation).

If you answer '1' you're a Socialist.

If you answer '2' you're a Capitalist.

 

[ferball]

Dude you're technically correct, but lets stop you there.

Capitalism is ''an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit''

capitalism - Google Search

Socialism is "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole (the State)''.

socialism - Google Search

The difference lies in (private hands, and outside the States control, for people to generate profit) or (not in private hands, and subject to strict controls by the State, profit doesnt matter).

Do you think the means of production, distribution, trade and industry should be owned and controlled by:

1) The State, with legal penalties prohibiting private ownership, control or participation in production, distribution or trade of goods and services.
2) Private entities (people, partnerships, collectives, corporations) free to do with those goods and services what they want free from government control (but otherwise subject to regulation).

If you answer '1' you're a Socialist.

If you answer '2' you're a Capitalist.

No that's way too simplistic. And furthermore you completely ignored most of my wikipedia def from upthread except for a small cherry picked part of it.

You do this because you've been brainwashed.

What sources of information were available to you when you formed your opinions on socialism? who curated them, cos that's what the essence of this thread is - modern methods of information curating via "the algorithm".

 

[Malifice]

ferball

If a group of people - in the USA - wanted to move to a collective farm, and live a life with shared property, in a collective manner (even forming a literal legal collective to do so) sharing goods and services - not for profit but for the mutual benefit of all in the collective, they can already do that.

There is literally nothing stopping them (or you) from doing this.

That being true, it doesn't make the USA socialist. It also highlights the advantages of Capitalism (private control of property and services and trade) - in that people can choose to live under socialist rules if they so desire (within a Capitalist State) because the State cannot control them to do otherwise.

Now flip it on its head, and assume a group of people - in Cuba this time - wanted to ignore the Socialist rules of Cuba, and form a private company, where they work for a salary, manufacture and then and sell goods for profit.

In Cuba - a socialist country - those people would not be allowed to do that and would likely be sent to prison for even trying.

See the differences? If you want to live on a commune in Australia, go live on your commune.

If you want to have every aspect of your life controlled by the Government, vote for the Marxists.

That's why capitalism is (in every way) better than Socialism, and how Socialism turns every single Socialist State into a tyranny.

 

[Malifice]

No that's way too simplistic.

They're the ******* definitions of capitalism and socialism.

Socialism is a POLTICIAL AND ECONOMIC theory that states that the means of production should be owned and controlled by the State.

Capitalism is a POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC theory that states (in opposition to Socialism) that the means of production should be owned and controlled by the free market (in private hands).

If you're arguing that a private collective (a group of hippies living on a commune out in Byron Bay) sharing food and labor with each other is 'socialism' then you're wrong because:

a) There is nothing stopping those Hippies from selling their s**t for profit, or leaving the commune, moving to Sydney and getting a job in a bank or whatever.
b) Ergo there is no State control of the means of production or their labor, and they're free to sell s**t in the private market if they want to.

It's a macro version of a socialist State (in that with respect to the other hippies, you're in a commune) entered into voluntarily, and presumably there is some mechanism of dispute management, laws around the property, working hours and so forth in effect (or control exercised by some entity within the collective, or some form of collective decision making).

In addition, note how you can go live in your commune/ collective right now if you desire. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing so. Go nuts.

That's the advantage of a Capitalist State. In a Socialist State the inverse is not also true.

And I dont want the Government telling me what to do with my labor, my profits, my ideas, or my work. Those things are my business, and If I can make a good living for myself doing whatever it is that I do, and am harming no-one else in so doing, it's no-one elses business but my own how I live my life.