Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

[Kwality]

How are success or failure measured individually & collectively?

 

[Roylion]

How are success or failure measured individually & collectively?

Success and failure of who?

 

[Kwality]

Success and failure of who?

See the conversation I contributed to:

I usually arrive at 7:30.First class is 8:50. Unless we have a meeting I usually go home pretty soon after class has finished (around 3:30) but do a couple of hours in the evening at home.

I'm the same. Too much staffroom banter / getting asked to do things if you stick around.

 

[Roylion]

Teachers in a school ?

Teachers in Victoria are reviewed each year.

Goals (usually 3-4) for teachers are set at the start of the school year and progress reports are filled out progressively during the year and are ticked off by the Principal at the end of the year as to whether they have been met.

Of course some of these goals are fairly subjective, given they result from the efforts of others and under circumstances that are sometimes out of the control of the teacher.

Unlike objective hard and fast numbers such as sales completed, profits made by the branch or business, student progress is heavily influenced by students' attitude towards education, their academic ability, their home life, parents, some of which is largely outside the control of teachers. For example I'd like all my senior students to do two-three hours of homework per night across all their subjects (as some students who are boarding at private schools are compelled to do), but does it happen? No. That alone has an impact on final Year 12 results (study scores and ATARs) which are nothing more than a student's position in state wide rankings.

 

[Deliverance]

Have Victoruan schools taken up the offer of extra staff to help kids catch up after lockdown 2020?
Seemed like a great idea, just hoping the implementation has been effective.

 

[bUCKET__]

Have Victoruan schools taken up the offer of extra staff to help kids catch up after lockdown 2020?
Seemed like a great idea, just hoping the implementation has been effective.

this article seemed pretty representative of most anecdotes I've heard from mates across Melb

Tutors vital in Victoria’s COVID catchup

Education Minister James Merlino says small-group tutoring is the “most critical thing” the government is doing in schools this year.

www.theage.com.au

 

[patterns]

Have Victoruan schools taken up the offer of extra staff to help kids catch up after lockdown 2020?
Seemed like a great idea, just hoping the implementation has been effective.

You would hope this definitely would be happening.

 

[Suspense]

Have Victoruan schools taken up the offer of extra staff to help kids catch up after lockdown 2020?
Seemed like a great idea, just hoping the implementation has been effective.

Our experience is that it was interrupted by Lockdowns 3 and 4 - and ended just as it started to get going.

More investment is needed - particularly with these lockdowns seemingly likely to go on.

 

[Deliverance]

Being a government response I excepted it to be a balls up, but if anyone can get it done, it's Merlino. His heart is in the right place I reckon.

 

[Suspense]

Being a government response I excepted it to be a balls up, but if anyone can get it done, it's Merlino. His heart is in the right place I reckon.

Funding aside, I think the biggest issues in Education are systematic - everything from Year 7 to 12 (can't comment on Primary) is, in my opinion, exclusively geared toward VCE and final exams. This excludes many learners.

I'm optimistic that the Victorian Senior Secondary Certificate Reform will be the starting point for that change. I know a few teachers who got hired by VCAA to work on it - and they mostly come from a VCAL / VET / Applied Learning background (so not just academic types).

 

[Roylion]

Funding aside, I think the biggest issues in Education are systematic - everything from Year 7 to 12 (can't comment on Primary) is, in my opinion, exclusively geared toward VCE and final exams. This excludes many learners.

Does it? You've just mentioned the existance of VCAL / VET. VCAL students still come out with a year 12 certificate. There are also school based apprenticeships. VCE isn't for everyone.

I'm optimistic that the Victorian Senior Secondary Certificate Reform will be the starting point for that change.

What change are you talking about exactly?

I know a few teachers who got hired by VCAA to work on it - and they mostly come from a VCAL / VET / Applied Learning background (so not just academic types).

I'm responsible for overseeing the inclusion of the new VCE (Vocational) stream, within the VCE at the school I am currently working at.

 

[Suspense]

Does it? You've just mentioned the existance of VCAL / VET. VCAL students still come out with a year 12 certificate. There are also school based apprenticeships. VCE isn't for everyone.

Yes VCAL exists but it is not a priority. My school doesn't offer VCAL - but many students would benefit from an applied learning program that is tailored to their needs. The two schools I have been at that ran VCAL programs had varying degrees of success.

The Review into vocational and applied learning pathways in senior secondary schooling supports my view:

Drivers of poor perceptions

A variety of different factors drive and perpetuate negative perceptions of VCAL specifically and of vocational education generally:

• A preference for VCE and university pathways pervades many Victorian schools, colouring the views of students, teachers and staff in leadership positions. As most teachers, career counsellors and school leaders are VCE and university graduates, the university pathway is their lived experience. Further, many school principals and school leaders have never taught VCAL. Whether conscious or not, the view of VCE is that it is the ‘default position’. Without specific central support and clear directive, the VCAL is unlikely to be understood or promoted.
• There is limited recognition of VCAL in the media and in many schools, especially against the background of general preoccupation with the VCE and the Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR) system.
• VCAL is widely ‘perceived as a low-level program for struggling students’ (VCAL and VET provider, online survey). Such a view reflects poorly not only on the student cohorts who are over-represented in VCAL and VDSS (e.g. low socio-economic, rural and regional and Indigenous students as well as students who are not academic achievers), but also on the VCAL program itself.
• The complexity, variable quality and status of VCAL as ‘not the VCE’ further entrench its public image and tarnish the program’s reputation.
• Victoria’s dual certificate framework significantly contributes to the perceived inferiority of VCAL. A dual certificate system encourages individuals to position the VCAL program as an alternative offering to senior secondary students that, compared to the default option (i.e. VCE), falls short. The different label of ‘VCAL’ inherently contributes to the perception that it is a second choice. Without correcting these perceptions, community attitudes are unlikely to shift even if the inherent qualities of VCAL are demonstrated.

https://www.education.vic.gov.au/Do...cational-applied-learning-pathways-report.pdf


In my experience, there is no doubt that VCE is the core focus of curriculum planning. Our PDP work is literally looking at the core skills/knowledge from associated VCE subject area - and then using that a basis for a skills continuum of what we teach from 7 to 10.

 

[Roylion]

Yes VCAL exists but it is not a priority.

In some schools. In other schools it's a big part of their senior curriculum. I know of schools that have more VCAL students than VCE.

My school doesn't offer VCAL - but many students would benefit from an applied learning program that is tailored to their needs.

But many schools do exactly that. Would your school offer the new VCE vocational stream (that has come out of the review) in that case? "Literacy", "Numeracy", "WRS", "PDS" and VET?

The two schools I have been at that ran VCAL programs had varying degrees of success.

Why would the new VCE vocational stream be any more successful in that case? I'm going through the discussion paper for the new stream at the moment.

The Review into vocational and applied learning pathways in senior secondary schooling supports my view:

Drivers of poor perceptions

A variety of different factors drive and perpetuate negative perceptions of VCAL specifically and of vocational education generally:

• A preference for VCE and university pathways pervades many Victorian schools, colouring the views of students, teachers and staff in leadership positions. As most teachers, career counsellors and school leaders are VCE and university graduates, the university pathway is their lived experience. Further, many school principals and school leaders have never taught VCAL. Whether conscious or not, the view of VCE is that it is the ‘default position’. Without specific central support and clear directive, the VCAL is unlikely to be understood or promoted.
• There is limited recognition of VCAL in the media and in many schools, especially against the background of general preoccupation with the VCE and the Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR) system.
• VCAL is widely ‘perceived as a low-level program for struggling students’ (VCAL and VET provider, online survey). Such a view reflects poorly not only on the student cohorts who are over-represented in VCAL and VDSS (e.g. low socio-economic, rural and regional and Indigenous students as well as students who are not academic achievers), but also on the VCAL program itself.
• The complexity, variable quality and status of VCAL as ‘not the VCE’ further entrench its public image and tarnish the program’s reputation.
• Victoria’s dual certificate framework significantly contributes to the perceived inferiority of VCAL. A dual certificate system encourages individuals to position the VCAL program as an alternative offering to senior secondary students that, compared to the default option (i.e. VCE), falls short. The different label of ‘VCAL’ inherently contributes to the perception that it is a second choice. Without correcting these perceptions, community attitudes are unlikely to shift even if the inherent qualities of VCAL are demonstrated.

I've read it. Many VCAL teachers (including some at my current school) were quite scathing of the review, saying its' findings" did not reflect their experience. Be that as it may we now have the new VCE vocational stream as a result.

In my experience, there is no doubt that VCE is the core focus of curriculum planning.

My point is of course that in many schools "everything from Year 7 to 12 exclusively geared toward VCE and final exams" just isn't the case.

Our PDP work is literally looking at the core skills/knowledge from associated VCE subject area - and then using that a basis for a skills continuum of what we teach from 7 to 10.

If you're doing that in key learning / subject areas, for example how 7-10 History's core skills leads onto VCE History key knowledge and skills then that's not surprising. Especially as your school doesn't offer VCAL at all. Many 7-10 academic subjects are designed to lead onto VCE academic subjects.

 

[Suspense]

In some schools. In other schools it's a big part of their senior curriculum. I know of schools that have more VCAL students than VCE.

I don't doubt it. In a number of schools, however, it is not a priority. VCE still accounts for almost 80% of senior school enrolments - and takes priority in those schools where VCAL is not a big part of their curriculum.

But many schools do exactly that. Would your school offer the new VCE vocational stream (that has come out of the review) in that case? "Literacy", "Numeracy", "WRS", "PDS" and VET?

Sure - but many do not - and every school that does not is 'x' number of students, year on year, in which their learning needs and appropriate vocational pathways are not being adequately catered for - resulting in disengagement - from school and workforce. That's an issue in my opinion.

I don't know if our school will offer it - leadership has a lot on their plate RN.

The feeling among staff as to why we don't offer it currently (despite there being a need) - is in line with the below:

But Ms Rooks [Victorian Applied Learning Association chief executive] said some schools were restricting enrolments in their VCAL programs, or not delivering the certificate because they were concerned it would tarnish their reputation as an “academic school”.

It’s a belief shared by University of Melbourne honorary professorial fellow Richard Teese. Professor Teese, who is also an adjunct professor at Victoria University, said some schools feared being labelled a ‘VCAL school’.

“It is a cultural issue and it is reinforced by the universities' power of selection and matriculation,” he said.

“If schools are not running a VCAL program, or only a small class, that is a very unfortunate state of affairs and says a lot about their approach to their equity.”

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ul-the-vce-s-poor-cousin-20190726-p52b1w.html

I would hope that a single senior secondary certificate would help address this issue.

Why would the new VCE vocational stream be any more successful in that case? I'm going through the discussion paper for the new stream at the moment.

Let's just say that a lot of the 'poor VCAL practices' identified in the review were present in the less successful attempts at running VCAL programs in my experience.

Some poor practices are unintended consequences from the design of the qualification. Others arise from a lack of understanding of what is required for effective implementation (outlined in Table 1) or from a perception within the school that VCAL is inferior relative to the VCE—a perception that has influenced the way some schools deliver their programs.

I will wait for further specifics on the implementation of VCE vocational stream / single senior secondary certificate as to whether I believe it will be more successful than the current VCAL implementation - however, please permit me to be optimistic.

My point is of course that in many schools "everything from Year 7 to 12 exclusively geared toward VCE and final exams" just isn't the case.

Fair enough - I retract my statement.

Almost everything from Year 7 to 12 (can't comment on Primary) is, in my opinion, exclusively geared toward VCE and final exams.

If you're doing that in key learning / subject areas, for example how 7-10 History's core skills leads onto VCE History key knoweldge and skills then that's not surprising. Especially as your school doesn't offer VCAL at all. Many 7-10 academic subjects are designed to lead onto VCE academic subjects.

We do it for all subjects.

 

[Roylion]

I don't doubt it. In a number of schools, however, it is not a priority. VCE still accounts for almost 80% of senior school enrolments - and takes priority in those schools where VCAL is not a big part of their curriculum.

Certainly.

In 2020 50,284 students received a VCE certificate while 14,529 students gained a VCAL certiifcate in 2020. So 22% of all students achieving a Year 12 certificate in 2020 completed a vocational certificate. There's many reasons why that number is not larger, some of which you've highlighted.

Sure - but many do not - and every school that does not is 'x' number of students, year on year, in which their learning needs and appropriate vocational pathways are not being adequately catered for - resulting in disengagement - from school and workforce. That's an issue in my opinion.

My point is that there is opportunities in most areas for students to follow a vocational path with VCAL offered at many schools (431 Victorian schools in 2019 of which 293 were secondary Government Schools (of which there are 327 in Victoria , 86 were Catholic schools, of which there are 98 in Victoria and 52 independent schools of 164 in total).

All 19 TAFE institutes and Adult and Community Education centres also offer VCAL. There was about three and a half thousand students completing school based apprenticeships as well.

The feeling among staff as to why we don't offer it currently (despite there being a need) - is in line with the below:

But Ms Rooks [Victorian Applied Learning Association chief executive] said some schools were restricting enrolments in their VCAL programs, or not delivering the certificate because they were concerned it would tarnish their reputation as an “academic school”.

It’s a belief shared by University of Melbourne honorary professorial fellow Richard Teese. Professor Teese, who is also an adjunct professor at Victoria University, said some schools feared being labelled a ‘VCAL school’.

“It is a cultural issue and it is reinforced by the universities' power of selection and matriculation,” he said.

“If schools are not running a VCAL program, or only a small class, that is a very unfortunate state of affairs and says a lot about their approach to their equity.”

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ul-the-vce-s-poor-cousin-20190726-p52b1w.html

Isn't that also an individual school decision about whether to offer VCAL? If there is a perceived need, then why not offer an alternative to VCE?

I would hope that a single senior secondary certificate would help address this issue.

I'm not sure it will. The VCE vocational with its own study designs of "Literacy", "Numeracy", 'Work Related Skills', 'Personal Development Skills', VET and Strucutred Workplace Learning will sit alongside the current VCE with the opportunity for VCE vocational students to select more academic VCE studies, if they so desire (which is currently the option anyway)

Let's just say that a lot of the 'poor VCAL practices' identified in the review were present in the less successful attempts at running VCAL programs in my experience.

There are also many successful VCAL programs running throughout the state.

Almost everything from Year 7 to 12 (can't comment on Primary) is, in my opinion, exclusively geared toward VCE and final exams.

At some schools and certainly from the figures above certainly from the majority of independent schools.

We do it for all subjects.

How many of those lead into VCAL studies?

 

[Suspense]

Isn't that also an individual school decision about whether to offer VCAL? If there is a perceived need, then why not offer an alternative to VCE?

But Ms Rooks [Victorian Applied Learning Association chief executive] said some schools were restricting enrolments in their VCAL programs, or not delivering the certificate because they were concerned it would tarnish their reputation as an “academic school”.

It’s a belief shared by University of Melbourne honorary professorial fellow Richard Teese. Professor Teese, who is also an adjunct professor at Victoria University, said some schools feared being labelled a ‘VCAL school’.

I'm not sure it will.

A consolidated single senior secondary certificate won't help address perception issues - internal and external (whether they be justly founded or unfounded) regarding VCAL?

The VCE vocational with its own study designs of "Lieracy", "Numeraxcy". Work Related Skills, Personal Development Skils, VET and Strucutred Workplace Learning will sit alongside the current VCE with the opportunity for VCE vicational students to select more academic VCE studies, if they so desire (which is currently the option anyway)

How many schools offer the full suite of VCAL subjects to students - without offering the VCAL certificate itself?

There are also many successful VCAL programs running throughout the state.

Absolutely - there are also poor implementations and poor practices - which have been identified as partly due to faults in design of the program and partly due to perceptions (internal and external) regarding VCAL. The reform aims to address both of those issues - time will tell if successful or not.

How many of those lead into VCAL studies?

Zero. The point I am making is that we are setting the curriculum for 7 to 10s based on the knowledge and skills required for VCE. Some of those 7s to 10s will not actively pursue VCE studies - they may go down VCAL/SBAT. Often they get lumbered into studying academic VCE subjects that they aren't particularly interested in while they complete VET studies (as VCAL is not offered).

No one in our school (and most mainstream schools - where VCAL is either not offered or not a priority) is looking at the VCAL curriculum units - and then working back and applying it to the skills continuum for 7 to 10s.

 

[Roylion]

But Ms Rooks [Victorian Applied Learning Association chief executive] said some schools were restricting enrolments in their VCAL programs, or not delivering the certificate because they were concerned it would tarnish their reputation as an “academic school”.

It’s a belief shared by University of Melbourne honorary professorial fellow Richard Teese. Professor Teese, who is also an adjunct professor at Victoria University, said some schools feared being labelled a ‘VCAL school’.

A consolidated single senior secondary certificate won't help address perception issues - internal and external (whether they be justly founded or unfounded) regarding VCAL?

It will be a new stream within the VCE. The "VCE vocational" certificate will sit alongside VCE and be named VCE (vocational) or something similar They're still working out the exact name, but could be 'VCE Vocational Specialisation' or 'VCE Vocational Major'

How many schools offer the full suite of VCAL subjects to students - without offering the VCAL certificate itself?

No idea.

The point I am making is that we are setting the curriculum for 7 to 10s based on the knowledge and skills required for VCE.

Your school has clearly made that choice to take that path.

Aren't we setting the curriculum based on the Victorian Curriculum F–10 which includes academic subjects but also less academic subjects such as 'Design and Technologies' and 'Digital Techologies', Dance, Music, Visual Arts and Communication, Media and Drama? Certainly some of these are offered at VCE level, but many of these are for non-academic students.

Some of those 7s to 10s will not actively pursue VCE studies - they may go down VCAL/SBAT.

They may. But still have to complete literacy and numeracy units irrespective of whether they do VCE or VCAL. Students can also access VET subjects from the middle secondary school years. Whether to offer that option to students is a school decision.

Often they get lumbered into studying academic VCE subjects that they aren't particularly interested in while they complete VET studies (as VCAL is not offered).

VCAL is offered at the majority of government secondary schools, less so in independent schools.

No one in our school (and most mainstream schools - where VCAL is either not offered or not a priority) is looking at the VCAL curriculum units - and then working back and applying it to the skills continuum for 7 to 10s.

Well of course your school wouldn't if you don't offer VCAL at all. Why would you?

However my point is that many do. If there's a perceived need at your school for a vocational option for some students, then there is the option to offer VCAL to meet their needs. Whether offering VCAL or the new VCE vocational stream, the same units of study of Literacy, Numeracy, PDS, WRS, VET and SWT will still be need to be offered. If you're not offering it now, I doubt your school be giving the students the option of the new VCE Vocational stream within the VCE that will be fully operational by 2025.

 

[Suspense]

Your school has clearly made that choice to take that path.

Aren't we setting the curriculum based on the Victorian Curriculum F–10 which includes academic subjects but also less academic subjects such as 'Design and Technologies' and 'Digital Techologies', Dance, Music, Visual Arts and Communication, Media and Drama? Certainly some of these are offered at VCE level, but many of these are for non-academic students.

Sure - but the Victorian Curriculum F–10 content descriptors are sometimes either vague and generic - or overcrowded/not enough time to cover all descriptors. So, you look forward to VCE, and identify which specific skills/knowledge are most necessary in 7-10 - in preparation for VCE.

I teach Digital Technologies - and this is exactly what we do.

Well of course your school wouldn't if you dont offer VCAL at all. Why would you?

My previous two schools did as well - both ran VCAL programs.

However my point is that many do. If there's a perceived need at your school for a vocational option for some students, then there is the option to offer VCAL to meet their needs. Whether offering VCAL or the new VCE vocational stream, the same units of study of Literacy, Numeracy, PDS, WRS, VET and SWT will still be need to be offered. If you're not offering it now, I doubt your school be giving the students the option of the new VCE Vocational stream within the VCE that will be fully operational by 2025.

1. The option is not taken up - partly due to perception issues
2. 'Offering VCAL' is quite different to implementing a well-run VCAL program (see the review).

 

[Kwality]

Teachers in Victoria are reviewed each year.

Goals (usually 3-4) for teachers are set at the start of the school year and progress reports are filled out progressively during the year and are ticked off by the Principal at the end of the year as to whether they have been met.

Of course some of these goals are fairly subjective, given they result from the efforts of others and under circumstances that are sometimes out of the control of the teacher.

Unlike objective hard and fast numbers such as sales completed, profits made by the branch or business, student progress is heavily influenced by students' attitude towards education, their academic ability, their home life, parents, some of which is largely outside the control of teachers. For example I'd like all my senior students to do two-three hours of homework per night across all their subjects (as some students who are boarding at private schools are compelled to do), but does it happen? No. That alone has an impact on final Year 12 results (study scores and ATARs) which are nothing more than a student's position in state wide rankings.

Man management in employment is important in any endeavour & getting the best from people is a skill regardless of their age.
Growing those you employ is very satisfying & having them head hunted is a measure of that success. For others it may be as simple as encouragement.
People naturally rank themselves is my experience, they know who is doing a better job.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

What do those outside of Victoria call VCAL?

 

[Big Cox 88]

What do those outside of Victoria call VCAL?

VET in WA

 

[RedmanWasHere]

VET in WA

Vocational Education & Training?

That's offered here too.

 

[Kwality]

What do those outside of Victoria call VCAL?

The Victorian Certificate of Applied Learning (VCAL) gives you practical work-related experience, as well as literacy and numeracy skills and the opportunity to build personal skills that are important for life and work. It is a vocation-based educational option that offers you a great career pathway if you are practically-minded and want to complete your secondary education.

VCAL is an accredited secondary certificate issued by the Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority, as is the Victorian Certificate of Education (VCE). VCAL focuses on careers-based 'hands-on learning' whereas the VCE is widely used by students as a direct pathway to university. Students who study VCAL are more likely to be interested in continuing their studies at TAFE, doing an apprenticeship or traineeship, or finding employment after they complete their course.

VCAL (Victorian Certificate of Applied Learning)

Get hands-on learning with your VCAL. The Victorian Certificate of Applied Learning (VCAL) is an accredited secondary certificate that focuses on careers-based ‘hands-on’ learning. VCAL gives you practical work-related experience, as well as literacy and numeracy skills and the opportunity to...

www.wodongatafe.edu.au

.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

The Victorian Certificate of Applied Learning (VCAL) gives you practical work-related experience, as well as literacy and numeracy skills and the opportunity to build personal skills that are important for life and work. It is a vocation-based educational option that offers you a great career pathway if you are practically-minded and want to complete your secondary education.

VCAL is an accredited secondary certificate issued by the Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority, as is the Victorian Certificate of Education (VCE). VCAL focuses on careers-based 'hands-on learning' whereas the VCE is widely used by students as a direct pathway to university. Students who study VCAL are more likely to be interested in continuing their studies at TAFE, doing an apprenticeship or traineeship, or finding employment after they complete their course.

VCAL (Victorian Certificate of Applied Learning)

Get hands-on learning with your VCAL. The Victorian Certificate of Applied Learning (VCAL) is an accredited secondary certificate that focuses on careers-based ‘hands-on’ learning. VCAL gives you practical work-related experience, as well as literacy and numeracy skills and the opportunity to...

www.wodongatafe.edu.au

.

I know what VCAL is.

 

[Kwality]

I know what VCAL is.

You were asking if there are equivalents outside Vic - I thought it may help if those outside Vic knew what VCAL is.