Analysis Thoughts on Promotion/Relegation model for the AFL

[Firestarter]

Yes, they are all **** sports. Especially NFL. I was once offered tickets to the Superbowl through a client, my response was I'd rather be at the Waste Management golf tourney in Arizona or indeed the Daytona Beach Dogs in Florida.

The NBA, whilst being a **** boring sport is run very well and the actual coverage is great.

I'm glad you didn't include baseball as that is the only American sport worth watching.

Geezus. Of all the bloody sports you claim baseball is the most watchable. Please get checked.

 

[Quintero]

Geezus. Of all the bloody sports you claim baseball is the most watchable. Please get checked.

Geezus. Of all the bloody sports you claim baseball is the most watchable. Please get checked.

American sports.

Imo, if you are not playing golf or skiing, there is no reason to be in America.

I can't watch a full game of baseball, would never attend anything but a world series game, but there is elements to the sport that I enjoy.

NFL is complete and utter garbage, a misleading name to begin with and beyond boring.

NBA was ok/good in the 90s when it was more physical. Also there really isn't much to basketball, it like a pro golfer making 100 2 ft putts. 7ft dude putting a big ball in a big basket, I mean honestly, how people find this exciting or indeed interesting is beyond me. The whole comp should be a Lightning premiership over a week. Everyone plays each other in 2 minute games without timeouts. Now that would be interesting.

NHL I don't get.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

What aspect of the NFL is a joke?

I said 'joke of a competition'.

Not 'joke of a spectacle', not 'joke of an athletic exhibition', or anything like that.

But 17 H&A matches in a 32 team competition? Arbitrary divisions with the winner of each progressing to the finals? No relegation or promotion?

As far as a football competition is concerned, it's a joke.

Same as the AFL. And the NRL and the A-League.

Not saying it is not worth watching, following or enjoying for what it is. That's a different question.

And I'm sure we can all agree that the NFL media is so far ahead of the AFL media in quality that it is beyond a joke.

 

[the flying ham]

Radical idea? In AFL terms yes, but it's an idea I would like to at least see discussed. It is obvious as to why, but in summary, we have a terribly compromised draw with the 22 round season, which many have argued couldn't be fixed. We also have a large number of teams that have nothing to play for from even way before the bye, and as the season progresses the number of such teams will obviously increase.

Here is the model which I would use as an example, which may not be perfect, but worth discussion in my view. I would like to see two new teams in the competition, one being from Tasmania, and one other from either WA, SA or anywhere else - that's a separate topic, but for the benefit of this discussion I would call 19th team Tasmania, and 20th team - Team20 for the moment.

We then have Division A which has 10 teams, allowing for 18 game season with everyone playing each other twice. We would then have top 4 or 5 finals series and have two teams relegated to Div B each season (teams 9 and 10 obviously). To make things interesting, the team finishing 8th could have a play off against the side that finished 3rd in Division B at a neutral venue.

Draft wise, nothing much changes - we look at the entire pool of teams and treat them as 1-20, with pick 1 going to Team20 and so on. TV rights wouldn't be affected, as the overall number of games will be similar (I can't be bothered working it out exactly). Yes, the initial revenue will take a hit, as the AFL won't have their standard Collingwood Carlton or Richmond Essendon type blockbusters every year, but in time this can be offset by other advantages, such as better TV deals etc.

But the advantages are huge. For starters, we would finally get a fair competition, instead of the Mickey Mouse one we have today. The game's integrity will be the BIG winner. Secondly, we would have very few games with nothing to play for, if any in the top division, and plenty of excitement in the second division. The only issue would be how to come up with incentives to the teams that are sitting down the bottom of Division B. There are always ways to do it. Come up with a draft lottery for pick 1 for starters.

I think this is ultimately the way to go.

Yeah hard hard no on that one.

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[wolvesRoos]

No, not now.. I do sometimes wonder if there was an opportunity to merge the WAFL, VFL and SANFL and have multiple divisions. When I see old games on TV the crowds look good at those games before the eagles and crows killed them

 

[Event Horizon]

No, not now.. I do sometimes wonder if there was an opportunity to merge the WAFL, VFL and SANFL and have multiple divisions. When I see old games on TV the crowds look good at those games before the eagles and crows killed them

It can't happen at state level due to lack of funding. But it could certainly happen at AFL level.
Essentially it would be no different to a team that can't make the finals - therefore can't win a flag. Anyway, until people have the balls to make some hard and not always popular decisions, we will have over half of all games that are absolutely meaningless. And we'll have teams thinking of the draft as early as May.

 

[wolvesRoos]

It can't happen at state level due to lack of funding. But it could certainly happen at AFL level.
Essentially it would be no different to a team that can't make the finals - therefore can't win a flag. Anyway, until people have the balls to make some hard and not always popular decisions, we will have over half of all games that are absolutely meaningless. And we'll have teams thinking of the draft as early as May.

I was meaning back in the late 80's before the Crows and Eagles were born

 

[Mav]

No, not now.. I do sometimes wonder if there was an opportunity to merge the WAFL, VFL and SANFL and have multiple divisions. When I see old games on TV the crowds look good at those games before the eagles and crows killed them

what do you mean the Eagles and Crows killed them? It was the VFL that killed them. The WAFL and SANFL wanted a 12 team national comp.

It wont be long until we have a national reserves league and the VFL will be dead. The Crows dont have any injuries on their list so their SANFL team is thumping everyone. They have Josh Jacobs playing, who alone is paid more then twice the entire salary cap of SANFL clubs. Once the Crows win the SANFL Premiership the other clubs will kick them out the SANFL and an AFL reserves comp will be started. Book mark it.

 

[kangaspurs]

American sports.

Imo, if you are not playing golf or skiing, there is no reason to be in America.

I can't watch a full game of baseball, would never attend anything but a world series game, but there is elements to the sport that I enjoy.

NFL is complete and utter garbage, a misleading name to begin with and beyond boring.

NBA was ok/good in the 90s when it was more physical. Also there really isn't much to basketball, it like a pro golfer making 100 2 ft putts. 7ft dude putting a big ball in a big basket, I mean honestly, how people find this exciting or indeed interesting is beyond me. The whole comp should be a Lightning premiership over a week. Everyone plays each other in 2 minute games without timeouts. Now that would be interesting.

NHL I don't get.

Yeah, gridiron is literally the most boring sport on the face of the planet. I mean, **** yeah, let's watch 2 hours of a sport to see 5 minutes of actual in game play. And I laugh at the thought that in a football code, or any sport with a ball, a player can go their entire career without touching or otherwise directly interacting with the ball. I can't think of any other ball sport that has that. It's a ludicrous sport. Like AFL, they have massive issues with the fairness of their schedule.

On one hand, I agree with the OP. Any sport's fixture that doesn't have every team play every other team the same amount of times as everyone else has its integrity compromised. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, I'm not sure promotion/relegation is the way to go in the AFL. I just don't think there is an appetite for it, and it doesn't make any sense commercially, and whether we like it or not, that's an important consideration.

I think the most likely result in fixing the fairness of the draw is 20 teams with every team playing each other once, maybe with conferences to make it a bit more exciting. One thing I do hope though is that we don't go the NBA route of having an east/west finals system where the conference champions play off in a grand final. It needs to be an inter-conference finals series.

 

[big_e]

I was meaning back in the late 80's before the Crows and Eagles were born

Theoretically possible but remember the new clubs were added because the league and many of the existing VFL clubs were broke, or close enough to it.

If you'd thrown the VFL, SANFL, WAFL and maybe some other state league sides into a divisional system then, you'd be faced with an almost broke Collingwood not playing home games against their generational rivals Carlton, but against East Perth, Subiaco or Norwood, and that's in second division.

And try selling TV rights for that.

 

[Boomerfan99]

American sports.

Imo, if you are not playing golf or skiing, there is no reason to be in America.

I can't watch a full game of baseball, would never attend anything but a world series game, but there is elements to the sport that I enjoy.

NFL is complete and utter garbage, a misleading name to begin with and beyond boring.

NBA was ok/good in the 90s when it was more physical. Also there really isn't much to basketball, it like a pro golfer making 100 2 ft putts. 7ft dude putting a big ball in a big basket, I mean honestly, how people find this exciting or indeed interesting is beyond me. The whole comp should be a Lightning premiership over a week. Everyone plays each other in 2 minute games without timeouts. Now that would be interesting.

NHL I don't get.

We get it. You like golf.

 

[Quintero]

We get it. You like golf.

Actually I like Football, Aussie Rules, Cricket, Golf, Horse Racing and Skiing...

I don't mind Baseball, I have a soft spot for Hurling and quite enjoy surfing.

I hate Tennis and the NFL.

 

[ArchKing Carey]

Only issue with promotion/relegation, just like in Premier League, etc.. is that 1st division teams would attract all the best players due to the glory of playing for the cup in September.
This happens in the Premier league today.

 

[Marstermind]

It would be the death of several clubs to be marooned in the lower division. I hate the term 'irrelevant' in relation to any club. But a club spending multiple seasons not even having to compete with the stronger teams would generate no interest, have all decent players drained from them and would indeed be irrelevant. Many such clubs would die. Including ours.

It is a patently stupid idea.

 

[Snake_Baker]

It would be the death of several clubs to be marooned in the lower division. I hate the term 'irrelevant' in relation to any club. But a club spending multiple seasons not even having to compete with the stronger teams would generate no interest, have all decent players drained from them and would indeed be irrelevant. Many such clubs would die. Including ours.

It is a patently stupid idea.

That's pretty much how I see it.

 

[ansonholt]

Huge fan of this concept. This is how I see it:

AFL Division 1: 12 teams, play each other twice each, byes as now, for a 23 week season.
AFL Division 2: 12 more teams (six remaining, new franchises in Tas, WA x 2, SA x 2, Albury/Wodonga/Canberra region), play each other twice each. Season starts one week earlier to put Div 2 GF a week before Div 1 GF. Bye rounds do not match up with Div 1.

State leagues feed all clubs as currently.

Practice matches must be Div 1 v Div 2, x 3 each year.

At seasons end: Div 2 GF teams move up, Div 1 bottom two drop down each year. Draft is 12 div 2 teams first in reverse, then Div 1 teams. Trading of picks etc. is league wide.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Huge fan of this concept. This is how I see it:

AFL Division 1: 12 teams, play each other twice each, byes as now, for a 23 week season.
AFL Division 2: 12 more teams (six remaining, new franchises in Tas, WA x 2, SA x 2, Albury/Wodonga/Canberra region), play each other twice each. Season starts one week earlier to put Div 2 GF a week before Div 1 GF. Bye rounds do not match up with Div 1.

State leagues feed all clubs as currently.

Practice matches must be Div 1 v Div 2, x 3 each year.

At seasons end: Div 2 GF teams move up, Div 1 bottom two drop down each year. Draft is 12 div 2 teams first in reverse, then Div 1 teams. Trading of picks etc. is league wide.

Then they remove the salary cap and you're stuck in Division 2 for eternity.

 

[Marstermind]

Then they remove the salary cap and you're stuck in Division 2 for eternity.

Or enough teams go out of existence that the necessity of divisions isn't needed anymore.

 

[Event Horizon]

Yeah, gridiron is literally the most boring sport on the face of the planet. I mean, **** yeah, let's watch 2 hours of a sport to see 5 minutes of actual in game play. And I laugh at the thought that in a football code, or any sport with a ball, a player can go their entire career without touching or otherwise directly interacting with the ball. I can't think of any other ball sport that has that. It's a ludicrous sport. Like AFL, they have massive issues with the fairness of their schedule.

On one hand, I agree with the OP. Any sport's fixture that doesn't have every team play every other team the same amount of times as everyone else has its integrity compromised. It's as simple as that. On the other hand, I'm not sure promotion/relegation is the way to go in the AFL. I just don't think there is an appetite for it, and it doesn't make any sense commercially, and whether we like it or not, that's an important consideration.

I think the most likely result in fixing the fairness of the draw is 20 teams with every team playing each other once, maybe with conferences to make it a bit more exciting. One thing I do hope though is that we don't go the NBA route of having an east/west finals system where the conference champions play off in a grand final. It needs to be an inter-conference finals series.

I wasn't a fan of gridiron until my eldest son started playing it. Now that I've been closer to it and actually learnt the rules, I don't mind it.
I agree with you, it has some weird aspects to it, such as players not interacting with the ball, but it also has plenty going for it.

 

[wolvesRoos]

One thing I do hope though is that we don't go the NBA route of having an east/west finals system where the conference champions play off in a grand final. It needs to be an inter-conference finals series.

Well we saw the pitfalls of that in the AFLW where we missed out

 

[the flying ham]

'I've thought of a way to make it infinitely more difficult for smaller clubs with middling on field performance to survive, it's the way to go despite the guaranteed demise of the club I support. The AFL need to show some balls and doom us to extinction'

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[Capriati]

As the league expands to 20 teams they should have a 12 team "A league" and 8 team relegation league.

Have 24 rounds of competition, each A league team plays each other home and away.

Top 8 play finals and bottom 4 play top 4 of relegation league for spots in next year's A league.

 

[Capriati]

'I've thought of a way to make it infinitely more difficult for smaller clubs with middling on field performance to survive, it's the way to go despite the guaranteed demise of the club I support. The AFL need to show some balls and doom us to extinction'

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Sounds like you are talking about your own club in that regard.

I would pose this question: Why should a team who is struggling for on field results over a number of years retain a place in a National Comp if it means compromising competitiveness and fixture?

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Sounds like you are talking about your own club in that regard.

I would pose this question: Why should a team who is struggling for on field results over a number of years retain a place in a National Comp if it means compromising competitiveness and fixture?

You’re right.

Carlton, Essendon and GC should be banished.

 

[Capriati]

You’re right.

Carlton, Essendon and GC should be banished.

It's not banishing a team, it is simply having two leagues with the idea of both leagues being fairer and more competitive making for better viewing and fan experience.