Tim Watson - Scott Pendlebury
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I don't think we do (need to have that conversation).
Fine player, but longevity (whilst important) does not elevate one to greatest of all time. Brent Harvey and Michael Tuck were also very good players with extraordinary longevity that are simply not near that conversation (Pendlebury closer than those two but still a fair way short of actual GOAT IMO).
Pendles was 'in the argument' for best player in the comp (or at least top 5) for at best 1-2 seasons in his career (2013 and 2011, arguably 2010 though clearly behind Swan and Hodge). He was top 20 in the comp over a 4-6 season span (2010 - 2014 definitely, 2015/16 arguably). He remined a good player (though not very top echelon) until 2020 (including AA in 2019).
He won 0 players MVPs, 1 Coaches MVP (2013) and never finsihed top 3 in the Brownlow (or the Coaches award in any other year).
He has a very envious resume overall (6xAA, 5xB&F, Norm Smith and games record holder) but is not in the company of the absolute greatest players of all time - he just wasn't the clear best player in the comp for any real period of time to be fully part of that argument (unlike Carey, Matthews, Ablett Snr, Ablett Jnr, etc).
Fine player, but longevity (whilst important) does not elevate one to greatest of all time. Brent Harvey and Michael Tuck were also very good players with extraordinary longevity that are simply not near that conversation (Pendlebury closer than those two but still a fair way short of actual GOAT IMO).
Pendles was 'in the argument' for best player in the comp (or at least top 5) for at best 1-2 seasons in his career (2013 and 2011, arguably 2010 though clearly behind Swan and Hodge). He was top 20 in the comp over a 4-6 season span (2010 - 2014 definitely, 2015/16 arguably). He remined a good player (though not very top echelon) until 2020 (including AA in 2019).
He won 0 players MVPs, 1 Coaches MVP (2013) and never finsihed top 3 in the Brownlow (or the Coaches award in any other year).
He has a very envious resume overall (6xAA, 5xB&F, Norm Smith and games record holder) but is not in the company of the absolute greatest players of all time - he just wasn't the clear best player in the comp for any real period of time to be fully part of that argument (unlike Carey, Matthews, Ablett Snr, Ablett Jnr, etc).
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He's not far off the best players to have played. I think he'll end up being underrated because he's not super flashy. He's in the convo of smartest players that's for sure. Him and Sam Mitchell are the smartest players I've ever watched (daicos heading that way).
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Watson: Games record puts Pendles in GOAT conversation
“I think we've got to have a conversation.”
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Tim Watson was a far superior player to Pendlebury
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If we look at all players to have played 350+ games Pendles would be behind
Brent Harvey
Kevin Barlett
Dustin Fletcher
Robert Harvey
Simon Madden
Craig Bradley
Adam Goodes
Brad Johnson
Tom Hawkins
Gary Ablett
Brouce Doull
Land Franklin
Matthew Pavlich
Would prob be even with Dangerfield and Selwood.
Brent Harvey
Kevin Barlett
Dustin Fletcher
Robert Harvey
Simon Madden
Craig Bradley
Adam Goodes
Brad Johnson
Tom Hawkins
Gary Ablett
Brouce Doull
Land Franklin
Matthew Pavlich
Would prob be even with Dangerfield and Selwood.
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Define "greatest". For me its a mix of consistency across games and seasons, and skill, and physical gifts, you can add in "leadership" and "magic' but the definitions on all those are wriggly. Everyone has a different mix, and I rate consistency and team work higher than many seem to.
Pendles has excellent skills, he's been a difficult bloke to catch (freakishly evasive), awkwardly tall for a mid, worked on his leadership skills to be above average, and extremely unselfish. Most of all he has been boringly consistent, so much so that flogs fail to notice him if he gets less than 25 touches.
Like Buckley and Carey, he has had very few bad quarters, let alone seasons. His overall best is actually brilliant and he's been in our best 20 for 20 years, and our best 3 for 10 of those.
If you want highlights he has a few. Big games? Heaps.
He is very worthy to be in the company listed above, anyone saying otherwise is a bitter dimwit. If Tim Watson, a superb champion of a player, has an opinion about it, I think it is flattering to Pendles.
I think Tim's wrong, but his opinion carries more weight than mine, or yours.
Pendles has excellent skills, he's been a difficult bloke to catch (freakishly evasive), awkwardly tall for a mid, worked on his leadership skills to be above average, and extremely unselfish. Most of all he has been boringly consistent, so much so that flogs fail to notice him if he gets less than 25 touches.
Like Buckley and Carey, he has had very few bad quarters, let alone seasons. His overall best is actually brilliant and he's been in our best 20 for 20 years, and our best 3 for 10 of those.
If you want highlights he has a few. Big games? Heaps.
He is very worthy to be in the company listed above, anyone saying otherwise is a bitter dimwit. If Tim Watson, a superb champion of a player, has an opinion about it, I think it is flattering to Pendles.
I think Tim's wrong, but his opinion carries more weight than mine, or yours.
Pendles and Selwood are nowhere near Danger IMO
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Of course Pendles is not the GOAT and Timmeh is just fishing for clicks.
But it is odd to dwell on individual season awards, particularly since you finish off by listing 3 players who many consider in the Top 3 of all time, but whose individual accolades are famous for being relatively bare (with Matthews this is affected by when they were introduced). You are also wrong about Pendles never finishing top 3 in the Brownlow.
From 2010-2013 Pendles had a coaches award, 3 top 5 finishes in the Brownlow, a Norm Smith and a top-2 place in the MVP. It just so happened that two other ATG midfielders in GAJ and Judd were running around, while his teammate also had his elite purple patch.
Ablett Senior and Carey overlapped with Plugger and Dunstall as forwards (not to mention guys like Modra), and that's before we even consider all the midfielders claiming most of the individual awards. Pendles isn't the first great player to play against other great players.
He is clearly behind GAJ in his era and nobody sane would even argue this. And he was clearly not as dominant a player at his peak as say Judd and Dusty.
But he was also best on ground in the final quarter of a tight grand final at an age when all 3 of these contemporaries were cooked.
He lacked the physical attributes of these players which meant he couldn't dominate games like they could, but he also didn't rely as much on these physical attributes to impact games. Which is why he could remain a better player for longer.
Is he the GOAT? I don't think anybody sensible would argue that. But are arguments that put a heavier focus on longevity over peak performance necessarily 'wrong'? No.
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Dangerfield certainly has them covered in number of Leon Davis medals won.
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And here I was, not realising Brent Harvey was the best player to have ever played the game thus far.
Great post.
Pendlebury continues to add to his legacy with every great game he played, which includes game number 426 as recently as Sunday night.
I still have GAJ a clear number 1 of the 21st, Buddy a clear number 2, and whilst for a long time I have had Judd a clear number 3, that position is getting murkier when Dangerfiled does what he did in last year's Prelim, and Pendlebury continues to deliver performances that he has in the 2023 Grand Final, and as recently as Sunday night.
I mean, you compare Pendlebury with someone like Judd, and you'll find:
Judd has 28 of the best 50 games between the pair;
54 of the best 100;
102 of the best 200;
145 of the best 300;
185 of the best 400;
215 of the best 500;
240 of the best 600.
It's reasonable to make a case for Pendlebury.
He is not as good as Nick Daicos, so no.
Or you know, actual medals.
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Chris Judd's peak was far higher than Dangerfield's or Pendlebury's. He was never quite the same after injury but still reinvented himself and won another Brownlow. Shame he committed to Carlton and never added another premiership medal, cause if he did, we wouldn't have people comparing him with players not in his league. His peak is the highest I've watched this century and that includes GAJ.
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Yep, can't argue with that.
But one has the better peak, the other has greater longevity.
Swings and roundabouts.
It's like debating about the GOAT runner - Usain Bolt or Eliud Kipchoge.
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Shane Heard
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There’s no best of all time.
There’s just a big bunch of about 50 players through the eras who consistently displayed way above average skills and topped their clubs best year after year.
Then there’s the freaks who might have only played 150 odd games but stand out as dynamic guns of the game at league level.
Phil Carman, Leon Baker and Alan Jackovich come to mind in that regard.
The other week me and a mate got into an argument about the Krakouer brothers and we got onto YouTube and watch a highlights package of the two. I soon admitted these two blokes were absolute freaks of nature and I’d forgotten how good they were. All the Skills, speed and the ability to make opponents look ridiculous trying to catch them.
They were sensational footballers. As was Stephen Micheal in the west.
There’s just a big bunch of about 50 players through the eras who consistently displayed way above average skills and topped their clubs best year after year.
Then there’s the freaks who might have only played 150 odd games but stand out as dynamic guns of the game at league level.
Phil Carman, Leon Baker and Alan Jackovich come to mind in that regard.
The other week me and a mate got into an argument about the Krakouer brothers and we got onto YouTube and watch a highlights package of the two. I soon admitted these two blokes were absolute freaks of nature and I’d forgotten how good they were. All the Skills, speed and the ability to make opponents look ridiculous trying to catch them.
They were sensational footballers. As was Stephen Micheal in the west.
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Everyone should have a look at their highlights ..especially on the small grounds like Arden st. No room to move but those two could turn on a 5cent piece and burn an opponent with 3 steps and slot goals from anywhere. Their handball skills were sublime ..in fact ..Pendlebury has probably the best handball skills out of anyone the last 15 years. Kerr was good too in that dept.
Freaks.
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