Tippett's Gone - READ RULES BEFORE POSTING

[BACCS]

****ing hell, we can't be banned from the draft entirely! Mother ****ing hell, how many times does that need to be repeated?!

 

[BACCS]

Btw, I have a feeling this thread will explode again with outlandish conspiracy theories and the like... ahhh, heaven.

Didn't speak soon enough, Malifice with some beauties!!

 

[Malifice]

******* hell, we can't be banned from the draft entirely! Mother ******* hell, how many times does that need to be repeated?!

According to the AFL Player rules, yes you can:

17.19 Conduct Prejudicial to Draft –Sanctions

The following sanctions shall apply in every case where a charge of conduct prejudicial to the Draft is sustained, subject to the discretion of the Commission provided for in Rule 16.1.

17.19.1 Club
Where a charge is sustained against a Club, the sanction shall be:-
(a) a sanction of up to 100 Units;
(b) forfeiture for a period of 3 years of the right to employ or register as a Player of the Club the Player or any of the Players to whom the conduct relates; and
(c) exclusion from any right to participate in up to all or part of four Draft Selection Meetings.

 

[juzzo]

******* hell, we can't be banned from the draft entirely! Mother ******* hell, how many times does that need to be repeated?!

"exclusion from any right to participate in up to all or part of four Draft Selection Meetings."
You sure about that?

 

[BACCS]

I've programmed my computer to explode if I dare open any Tippett thread on BF, so if you don't see me for a while after next Monday, I've relapsed and haven't replaced my laptop yet...

 

[Malifice]

They dont have to exclude you from the entire draft mind you (although they certainly have the power to do so).

The penalty is: exclusion from any right to participate in up to all or part of four Draft Selection Meetings.

They could simply do to you what they did to us, and exclude you from parts of the draft(s) (i.e. only the 1st and 2nd round, strip all PSD selections, whatever etc).

To be banned from the whole draft entirely would be unprecedented (but clearly within the AFL's power to do).

 

[jenny61_99]

To summarise the above, the penalties are likely to be:

In a nutshell, for the 'draft tampering' charge:

• The club is looking at (worst case) a big fine, being barred from retaining Tippett for three years, and total exclusion from the draft for up to 4 years.
• Tippett is facing a fine and sitting out the game for up to 12 months.
• All agents and officials involved are facing a fine and being excluded from working with any AFL club or player for an arbitrary period (determined by the AFL).

For the charge of breach of TPP, the penalty depends on whether the AFL view the club as having ‘voluntarily disclosed’ the deal or not:

In a nutshell:

• Penalty for voluntary disclosure - $300,000 fine (the first $100,000 plus double the amount over the first $100,000) and exclusion from up to three Drafts and loss of premiership points
• Penalty for Non-Disclosure – The greater of a $400,000 fine (or 150 penalty units) plus exclusion from up to four Drafts and loss of premiership points

Also the club will be prohibited from trade ‘week’ for the period of draft suspension.

Kurt is facing a further fine for breach of TPP. The officials and agents involved are facing a fine and sitting out the game for an arbitrary period (also determined by the AFL).

The final clause (17.23) allows the AFL to also sting people involved with additional penalties for other breaches of the rules (such as Tippetts lying on his Statutory declaration and so forth) that the evidence points them to breaching.

I dont think there is any argument left for innocence sadly. The rules alleged to have been breached are pretty wide (i.e. they cover intent to break the 'spirit' of the rules).

The question now is how hard the AFL want to go with the penalties.

My 'gut feeling' is the club will get stung for $300,000 for the breach of TPP plus a further 100 'penalty units' (currently $1000 each) for @ $400,000. Plus exclusion from @ 2-3 drafts and trade weeks. Tippett will be sitting out the game for 12 months (just prior to the nomination period next year) and cop a fine of @ $50,000. All officials involved will likely cop a similar fine and be barred from working in the AFL for a period of @ three years.

What penalty did Carlton get?

 

[Sanders]

******* hell, we can't be banned from the draft entirely! Mother ******* hell, how many times does that need to be repeated?!

Calm down, no need to be hysterical

Especially when its there in black & white that you are incorrect

 

[Cleric]

To summarise the above, the penalties are likely to be:

In a nutshell, for the 'draft tampering' charge:

• The club is looking at (worst case) a big fine, being barred from retaining Tippett for three years, and total exclusion from the draft for up to 4 years.
• Tippett is facing a fine and sitting out the game for up to 12 months.
• All agents and officials involved are facing a fine and being excluded from working with any AFL club or player for an arbitrary period (determined by the AFL).

For the charge of breach of TPP, the penalty depends on whether the AFL view the club as having ‘voluntarily disclosed’ the deal or not:

In a nutshell:

• Penalty for voluntary disclosure - $300,000 fine (the first $100,000 plus double the amount over the first $100,000) and exclusion from up to three Drafts and loss of premiership points
• Penalty for Non-Disclosure – The greater of a $400,000 fine (or 150 penalty units) plus exclusion from up to four Drafts and loss of premiership points

Also the club will be prohibited from trade ‘week’ for the period of draft suspension.

Kurt is facing a further fine for breach of TPP. The officials and agents involved are facing a fine and sitting out the game for an arbitrary period (also determined by the AFL).

The final clause (17.23) allows the AFL to also sting people involved with additional penalties for other breaches of the rules (such as Tippetts lying on his Statutory declaration and so forth) that the evidence points them to breaching.

I dont think there is any argument left for innocence sadly. The rules alleged to have been breached are pretty wide (i.e. they cover intent to break the 'spirit' of the rules).

The question now is how hard the AFL want to go with the penalties.

My 'gut feeling' is the club will get stung for $300,000 for the breach of TPP plus a further 100 'penalty units' (currently $1000 each) for @ $400,000. Plus exclusion from @ 2-3 drafts and trade weeks. Tippett will be sitting out the game for 12 months (just prior to the nomination period next year) and cop a fine of @ $50,000. All officials involved will likely cop a similar fine and be barred from working in the AFL for a period of @ three years.

I can't see us been excluded for more than one draft. If they do it will be our first pick this year and our first next. I think 300,000 fine, loss of Tippett, first two picks in this draft and Tippett will be banned for 6 weeks and not be allowed to go to Sydney. This will mean he wont be able to nominated such a big wage as Sydney offered otherwise he might not get picked up. Bloucher will get done for 12 months.

 

[Southerntakeover]

My 'gut feeling' is the club will get stung for $300,000 for the breach of TPP plus a further 100 'penalty units' (currently $1000 each) for @ $400,000. Plus exclusion from @ 2-3 drafts and trade weeks. Tippett will be sitting out the game for 12 months (just prior to the nomination period next year) and cop a fine of @ $50,000. All officials involved will likely cop a similar fine and be barred from working in the AFL for a period of @ three years.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Geoffa32]

If this thread hits 40,000 posts Joel will have another sister......

 

[Geoffa32]

I can't see us been excluded for more than one draft. If they do it will be our first pick this year and our first next. I think 300,000 fine, loss of Tippett, first two picks in this draft and Tippett will be banned for 6 weeks and not be allowed to go to Sydney. This will mean he wont be able to nominated such a big wage as Sydney offered otherwise he might not get picked up. Bloucher will get done for 12 months.

I can handle losing pick 18 next year......................

 

[BACCS]

What penalty did Carlton get?

Doesn't matter, this is a million times worse Jenny, I'm pretty sure I might have to be a supporter Melbourne next season. I have the inside word that the penalty for Crows supporters for this heinous crime is supporting Melbourne for the period of 3 years, with an exit clause if Melbourne decide to tank again. However, that exit clause then states that we all must support Carlton, at which point I will probably kill myself.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Doesn't matter, this is a million times worse Jenny.

Whilst I know you feel you're being really impressive right now with the little pantomime that you're running, this is largely an irrelevancy. We're not being tried under the same laws.

 

[Malifice]

What penalty did Carlton get?

$930,000 in a fine, Draft picks #1, #2, #31, and #34 from 2002, total exclusion from the 2003 PSD, and picks #4 and #20 from the 2003 ND.

The club was fined a total of $930,000 (including $57,576 which had been suspended from previous breaches). The club was also stripped of several early draft picks in the 2002 and 2003 AFL Drafts, specifically:

• Draft picks No. 1, 2, 31 and 34 from the 2002 National Draft
• All draft picks in the 2003 Preseason Draft
• Its first and second round draft picks in the 2003 National Draft[2]

Although the club was penalised, no individuals within the club were ever formally identified or penalised by the AFL's investigation. The Carlton Football Club stated at the time that the only people at the club who had knowledge of the breaches were president John Elliott, and directors Wes Lofts, Kevin Hall and Barry Stone. The players were never found guilty of any wrongdoing.[1]

The effect on the club:

The penalties struck Carlton at a very inopportune time. Historically one of the most successful clubs both on and off the field, decisions made in the late 1990s meant the club was already struggling in both areas in 2002, and the impact of the penalties severely weakened the club's position for the next five or six years.

On-field, the club had fallen from playing finals in 2001 to winning its first ever wooden spoon in 2002, after the retirements of many champion players from the 1990s. The loss of draft picks came at the time when the club needed them the most to rebuild its playing list. This resulted in the worst extended period of on-field performances in the history of the club. In the six seasons between 2002 and 2007, Carlton finished last three times, and five times in the bottom two. It was not until 2009 that the club had rebuilt its list sufficiently to return to the finals.[3]

Off the field, the club had already posted an operating loss of $500,000 in 2002, and its decision to invest in the upgrade of Princes Park was proving to be poor, as AFL games were increasingly moved away from the stadium. After the penalties, the club's was not only forced to pay the $930,000 fine, but also (and, ironically) settle the under-the-table contracts it still had with Silvagni and Bradley. By 2005, the club was close to requiring assistance from the AFL's Competitive Balance Fund.[4] To stay afloat, the club was forced to take a loan of $1,500,000 from the AFL in 2003 – a loan which it was still yet to repay as late as 2009.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Football_Club_salary_cap_breach

 

[jenny61_99]

$930,000 in a fine, Draft picks #1, #2, #31, and #34 from 2002, total exclusion from the 2003 PSD, and picks #4 and #20 from the 2003 ND.




The effect on the club:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Football_Club_salary_cap_breach

So you see us getting essentially the same penalty as you albeit a smaller $ fine.

 

[Hendersloane]

http://mobile.news.com.au/sport/afl...next-weeks-draft/story-fnelctok-1226515379853

"There is a growing feeling the league may target individuals guilty of orchestrating the "tanking" that took place, which could see heavy penalty for staffers but less focus on draft sanctions."

So this was a related story to the Crows/Tippett one on news.com.au...

I, for one, will be absolutely livid if we are punished more severely (loss of draft picks) than Melbourne.

 

[A FEW GOOD MEN]

Settle down folks, this is far from over.

The AFL had no choice, they had to lay those charges. Even if things are a bit grey they need to follow the process to the bitter end to ensure that no other club tries to "manipulate" the rules in the future.

If our defence establishes that

1) We never exceeded the salary cap in the last three years (i.e. even adding the aditional $100k a year to TPP would still have us well under the limit).

2) The initial "verbal" agreement to assist Kurt to go home was confirmed by JR in an email but subsequently retracted a few weeks later when Triggy found out.

3) Blucher/Tippett used the email to push up Kurt's price.

then we could end up with a fine (say $500K with half suspended) and loss of our first two draft picks this year (this is my official entry in the "what will we get competition).

Whilst Kurt's true value is a top 5 draft pick, after walking away from the Brisbane deal last year the best we could hope for was a pick around 12-16. So we have lost pick (say) 12 and pick 20. Remember we would need to delist another player to use our next draft pick ( which we swapped for a third round pick in the Graham trade).

The AFL doesn't want to destroy Melbourne so it is a smart move that they wait until after the draft, let alone the complications re Viney if they were to take away their picks this year.

I don't think Sydney/Brisbane/Gold Coast are out of the woods either. No point charging any other club until the case against Adelaide is proven.

 

[Malifice]

So you see us getting essentially the same penalty as you albeit a smaller $ fine.

Yep.

You guys have the double whammy remember - Breach of TPP and Draft tampering.

For the club, around $400,000 and loss of early picks for @ 2-3 Drafts.

I, for one, will be absolutely livid if we are punished more severely (loss of draft picks) than Melbourne.

Melbourne are in the fortunate position that the actual rule regarding tanking doesnt cover Administrators inducing others to 'tank' (it only covers coaches and players). The only evidence is that the Admin told the coaches to tank (i.e. induced tanking); the coaches and players are denying they acted on these instructions. As a result (and due to the AFL's liability if tanking is 'proven') they will probably get off the tanking charge, but get done for bringing the game into disrepute and a few other offences.

 

[Malifice]

If our defence establishes that

1) We never exceeded the salary cap in the last three years (i.e. even adding the aditional $100k a year to TPP would still have us well under the limit).

I keep seeing this defence (we didnt actually exceed the cap) but its not relevant.

There was an undeclared deal to induce a player to remain at the club. That alone damns you.

Also that undeclared $200,000 has effectively given Adelaide an extra $200,000 to play with in the SC for the past 3 years (and you would have had it counted against your cap should you have followed the rules and declared it to the AFL for just this reason).

That you did or didnt actually use that extra $200,000 is not relevant. You had a $200,000 advantage over other clubs for the past few years due to an secret arrangement that was intentionally hidden from the AFL.

 

[headache1]

Also that undeclared $200,000 has effectively given Adelaide an extra $200,000 to play with in the SC for the past 3 years. That you did or didnt actually use that extra $200,000 is not relevant (and you would have had it counted against your cap should you have followed the rules and declared it to the AFL for just this reason).

I read somewhere around the place that we did actually put these payments in our salary cap. It was the fact that we promised to make said payments without first notifying the AFL that was the problem.

 

[juzzo]

Won't be more than 2 drafts imo. In fact would probably only be one if their first pick didn't fall so late in the round.

 

[macca23]

Settle down folks, this is far from over.

The AFL had no choice, they had to lay those charges. Even if things are a bit grey they need to follow the process to the bitter end to ensure that no other club tries to "manipulate" the rules in the future.

If our defence establishes that

1) We never exceeded the salary cap in the last three years (i.e. even adding the aditional $100k a year to TPP would still have us well under the limit).

2) The initial "verbal" agreement to assist Kurt to go home was confirmed by JR in an email but subsequently retracted a few weeks later when Triggy found out.

3) Blucher/Tippett used the email to push up Kurt's price.

then we could end up with a fine (say $500K with half suspended) and loss of our first two draft picks this year (this is my official entry in the "what will we get competition).

I'm in a similar place to you re the thinking and likely penalties, AFGM.

I went for a bit less money, $400,000, some of which may be suspended, but slightly different re the draft picks.

I'm guessing that we will be excluded either from the first 3 rounds of the National Draft, or perhaps even excluded from selection of our 2 picks until all other teams have used their picks.

Your points 1 and 2 above are salient and IMO will assist us in avoiding loss of draft picks in next years draft.

 

[BrissyCrow]

Whilst I believe the AFL will make an example of us I still do not believe that they will put us in a position that will have a similar effect to what they did to Carlton. I have stated before that the AFL needs SA and WA to be competitive in this competition. The AFL has too much to risk. If they cut us out of the draft for 4 years that would be counterproductive..big time. The reality is that the AFL needs to reduce the number of Vict teams not stuff up the non Vict teams.

There simply is too much at risk. We have the Adelaide oval happening. We have a weak power team. At best I see a fine of about $800,000 of which half will be suppended and I see us losing our draft for this year with some exclusions but not a total exclusion for 2014.

 

[SugarShane]

My 'gut feeling' is the club will get stung for $300,000 for the breach of TPP plus a further 100 'penalty units' (currently $1000 each) for @ $400,000. Plus exclusion from @ 2-3 drafts and trade weeks. Tippett will be sitting out the game for 12 months (just prior to the nomination period next year) and cop a fine of @ $50,000. All officials involved will likely cop a similar fine and be barred from working in the AFL for a period of @ three years.

I don't think the @ symbol means what you think it means.