Tom Harley

[Pivo]

Re: 'Harley as a forward'

He's still a pretty decent set shot at goal.
He's got a nice action and generally kicks them.
One doesn't need to look at accuracy percentages to know this...

Not that I like using stats to form the basis of an argument, this makes for interesting reading...it surprised me.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-geelong-cats--travis-varcoe

2009 - Goals = 10, Behinds = 6
2008 - Goals = 14, Behinds = 7
2007 - Goals = 15, Behinds = 7

I would have thought he had a higher conversion rate.

 

[vinum coupe]

yeah you certainly can't use those stats. Who knows where he was when he took the shots.

Set shots are a different story.

The way I see it. How confident do you feel when the player has the ball in his hands and is taking a set shot? I feel fine with Varcoe.

 

[Hood007]

Re: 'Harley as a forward'

Not that I like using stats to form the basis of an argument, this makes for interesting reading...it surprised me.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-geelong-cats--travis-varcoe

2009 - Goals = 10, Behinds = 6
2008 - Goals = 14, Behinds = 7
2007 - Goals = 15, Behinds = 7

I would have thought he had a higher conversion rate.

How many of those are set shots at goal?
My point was that I think he's a pretty good set shot at goal where as those stats include all shots at goal...
That's a pretty decent conversion rate anyway, isn't it?

 

[Pivo]

Re: 'Harley as a forward'

How many of those are set shots at goal?
My point was that I think he's a pretty good set shot at goal where as those stats include all shots at goal...
That's a pretty decent conversion rate anyway, isn't it?

The breakdown of set-shots V on the run isn't there but there are plenty of people would would argue that a 50% conversion in 2008 isn't all that flash.

I'm actually with ya though - I think he is a reasonable shot at goal. I was merely pointing out that these stats perhaps suggest otherwise and came as a surprise to me as I thought his conversion rate was higher.

As VC said, do I feel comfortable with Varcoe over the ball taking a set shot?

Yep, I do.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

I included Varcoe because I've seen him shank them from a set shot once or twice. If Hawkins' kicking style seems to be suffering since his debut, then he's obviously being told the wrong thing by whoever it is telling him.

 

[vinum coupe]

Have a look at the video of Tomahawk in the under 18 championships.
It's 10 minutes of pain watching him kick for goal.

 

[Hood007]

Re: 'Harley as a forward'

The breakdown of set-shots V on the run isn't there but there are plenty of people would would argue that a 50% conversion in 2008 isn't all that flash.

I'm actually with ya though - I think he is a reasonable shot at goal. I was merely pointing out that these stats perhaps suggest otherwise and came as a surprise to me as I thought his conversion rate was higher.

He was actually at, 68.2% in '07, 66.6% in '08, and 62.5 so far this year.
But yeah, i'm with ya, I feel comfortable when he's kicking for goal. My heart doesn't race like it does with Moons, Hawkins & Gamble...

 

[Pivo]

Re: 'Harley as a forward'

He was actually at, 68.2% in '07, 66.6% in '08, and 62.5 so far this year.
But yeah, i'm with ya, I feel comfortable when he's kicking for goal. My heart doesn't race like it does with Moons, Hawkins & Gamble...

Another reason I don't like stats - I can't use them properly

 

[Belisarius]

Have a look at the video of Tomahawk in the under 18 championships.
It's 10 minutes of pain watching him kick for goal.

That says it all to me. I put this piece on a different thread but it is more relevant here now.

I used to play a bit of golf and the problem there is if need to adjust your swing a thing called 'muscle memory' came into play. That is your physical action, tends to follow what your body has been taught/repeated over the years of that action - whether swinging or kicking.

So it becomes very hard to change your action. Secondly once you have a method of kicking you tend to allow for it, and therefore ingrain that poor kicking action even more. Fevola said the other night he holds the ball higher on one side (Brian Taylor assisted) as the way he used to drop the ball onto the boot in a set shot generally created a right to left kick (as what happened when he hit the post against Hawthorn).

Your body will try to do what it knows from previous experience (if your head does not get in the way). Remember it actually requires everybody to learn to walk, even though we cannot remember the process now. By the time you are good at it, it becomes automatic and you walk without having to think about the process anymore. However watch people walking and you will notice that not all people walk exactly the same.

Hawkins then needs to be given a set routine, practice and practice it until it feels natural for him. Forget the goals just go thru the new process and kick. Over time, when he stops thinking about his kicking action, he will become accustomed to the change and develop muscle memory for the new style of kicking.

However you must also believe the new kicking style will improve your kicking otherwise you will think too much and interfer with process. This leads to becoming frustrated and you end up not knowing what to do - and you will never develop a better kicking action.

This is most evident with players who are better kicks on the run than set shots - generally when they do not have a lot of time to think about kicking for goal. Pressure is a mind game - so taking the pressure off yourself by having a set routine for set shots you believe in does generally help.

Having said all this - it is very hard to have a new kicking style once you have been doing the same action for ten years or more (muscle memory). Just look at Richo - I am sure he has quite a few kicking specialists work with him - and results seem relatively small.

PS. Generally taking too long to kick a set shot means that you are thinking too much about the kick - and this will interfere with the muscle memory you have established. It generally comes under the heading of 'lacking confidence'. That is why a player must start to believe that whatever kicking style they adopt under their kicking coach will work for them - and just follow a simple routine and kick.

 

[darren forssman]

Re: 'Harley as a forward'

Not that I like using stats to form the basis of an argument, this makes for interesting reading...it surprised me.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-geelong-cats--travis-varcoe

2009 - Goals = 10, Behinds = 6
2008 - Goals = 14, Behinds = 7
2007 - Goals = 15, Behinds = 7

I would have thought he had a higher conversion rate.

and last week he kicked 2.3 or something...could have easily been 10.4.

but again, not sure too many of those are set shots.

 

[STC]

Re: 'Harley as a forward'

To be honest, I think that's what stuffing Hawkins up so much at the moment.
When he first came in, he had a relaxed, natural style. not perfect, but he always connected with the ball sweetly.
Now, when he kicks, you can tell he's been told to do different things.
he's missed a bunch of sitters recently, but three in particular have stood out at me... all have been shanked off the outside of his right boot and so have gone out of bounds to the right. He seems to be leaning wrongly, so he is not balanced when his leg is coming through.

Do the coaches persist with the tuition, or do they just say, "hang it, go back and do what you used to do"?

Perhaps in the desire to get him to 80% accuracy, we're potentially stuffing up his confidence and career. Should we just be happy with the 60% he'd offer with his natural style?

Could it be that this has to do with the altered running style the club is teaching him to stop him from getting injured so often?