Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[TMoney22]

so was that Carlisle story the one everyone was referring to, or is there something else?

ACA said that St.Kilda did not know about this. I find that hard to believe if most on here know about it

 

[TedDougChris]

With this whole points system, the AFL has again over complicated what should be a simple game.

I actually think they should go the whole hog and use the points system for drafting - full stop. Not ladder position, but the points. But that's a different topic.

 

[Rockford18sx2]

I actually think they should go the whole hog and use the points system for drafting - full stop. Not ladder position, but the points. But that's a different topic.

I haven't had the time to look into the points system. Do you think it works , or will we see clubs coming out and complaining that there are loop holes/flaws that have been unfairly exploited this trade period?

 

[bobby2]

I actually think they should go the whole hog and use the points system for drafting - full stop. Not ladder position, but the points. But that's a different topic.

Just curious, what would the process be here?

 

[TedDougChris]

I haven't had the time to look into the points system. Do you think it works , or will we see clubs coming out and complaining that there are loop holes/flaws that have been unfairly exploited this trade period?

There will always be loopholes, and the northern clubs are already exploiting them. As only they have access to the Academy's, they get a larger pool of players to choose from, as opposed to the F/S selections. You have to play 100 games for the club to get F/S, so that rules out Lake at Hawthorn for example, even though he was very successful there. Players like Williams, who was perennially injured - will miss out etc.

But the northern clubs get access to any player who is remotely interested in their specific regions. So it's a deeper pool for them to choose from. So they don't care about the draft positions, they care about the equivalent points, which when combined with the discount they receive, means they are benefitting for more and far more frequently than we will.

Solely using the points for drafting (and in some cases trading), can actually help redress some of the issues that a club like Brisbane are facing. For example, if you had a rule that players don't lose value when they have completed their initial contract - then Brisbane could receive the equivalent points from Collingwood or North (if they cannot agree on a player compensation) that they initially spent on Aish. If you use the points system for bidding on draft picks, they could then bid for Pick 7 this year - which is a much better player than Pick 28 - 30 next year.

This not only helps redress the current 'wanna go to a destination club' issue (as the new club has to give equivalent points away), but also provides better compensation - as Picks 43 and 84 are not the same as Pick 7, even if the value is ***

*** - made up example, points don't actually match.....

It's a pretty complex subject, hope this makes some sense....

 

[Fultons]

I'm tipping BTC for a break-out year next season so i'm happy for us to sit on our hands this off season. We don't need a KPD this off-season, we aren't pushing for a flag. Wait for the right target and pounce.

Ahem why the **** wouldn't we be pushing for a flag? Stranger things have happened. If we are not looking to go as far as possible next season we might as well have moved on at least two of moyd moz and murph. Half a dozen less mistakes across three games and we make the 4 this year. U reckon bob thinks we can't win it ? maybe it's unlikely but to say impossible is to base judgement on stats and windows and suchlike crap and ignore the real key ingredient - a fighting chance

 

[timtamWB]

so was that Carlisle story the one everyone was referring to, or is there something else?

ACA said that St.Kilda did not know about this. I find that hard to believe if most on here know about it

No the carlisle story on here was something different.

 

[Dogsman16]

I'm tipping BTC for a break-out year next season so i'm happy for us to sit on our hands this off season. We don't need a KPD this off-season, we aren't pushing for a flag. Wait for the right target and pounce.

Sorry I just cannot agree with this.

 

[TedDougChris]

Just curious, what would the process be here?

Sorry to derail the thread everyone.

1. All clubs get points allocated, based upon ladder position (lets just use the AFL data).
2. The clubs finishing lower, will have more total points.
3. All clubs are invited to bid (like an auction) for each pick.
4. If you needed a KPP - but didn't have that pick, you could pool points - (which in the same way this impacts on the Academy/F-S picks, pushes you back further in the draft order later on) - to try and outbid someone for that pick and that player.
5. However, the clubs finishing lower will have access to more points, so they'd need to be ok with this.
6. Clubs trading players could either accept equivalent points, or players - which would help improve trading.
7. As you can pool points, a club like Brisbane could then use the picks/points they receive for Aish to bid on a similar player earlier in the draft - as opposed to Pick 34 and next years 28. (example only)
8. As mentioned earlier, you could have a rule that players finishing their rookie contract hold value, so Collingwood/North would need to provide Brisbane with the equivalent of Pick 7 worth of points. This helps Brisbane replace a wantaway player with someone of equivalent value.

And there would need to be a fair bit of tinkering.

 

[immortalmike]

Ahem why the **** wouldn't we be pushing for a flag? Stranger things have happened. If we are not looking to go as far as possible next season we might as well have moved on at least two of moyd moz and murph. Half a dozen less mistakes across three games and we make the 4 this year. U reckon bob thinks we can't win it ? maybe it's unlikely but to say impossible is to base judgement on stats and windows and suchlike crap and ignore the real key ingredient - a fighting chance

Because our age and experience profile is 2 seasons off the Baby Bombers and the 08 Hawks. We'll be lucky to make the 8 again.

 

[LukasTheGreat]

Ahem why the **** wouldn't we be pushing for a flag? Stranger things have happened. If we are not looking to go as far as possible next season we might as well have moved on at least two of moyd moz and murph. Half a dozen less mistakes across three games and we make the 4 this year. U reckon bob thinks we can't win it ? maybe it's unlikely but to say impossible is to base judgement on stats and windows and suchlike crap and ignore the real key ingredient - a fighting chance

We've seen what happens to teams that push too hard before they're ready. I've waited 23 years, I can wait a few more.

Sorry I just cannot agree with this.

How much of this is just wanting a 'shiny new toy'?

 

[Fultons]

Because our age and experience profile is 2 seasons off the Baby Bombers and the 08 Hawks. We'll be lucky to make the 8 again.

Wanna bet?

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Honestly, I'm reasonably happy with our KPD stocks at this point in time.

Roberts just needs continuity, Hamling is a star in the making and Cordy made greater strides than most of us forecast before the season.

We need somebody to anchor these guys, and it's definitely our most pressing need, but I wouldn't be sounding the alarm because we didn't get that somebody this year.

Don't stress out. We're the best drafters and developers in the league right now, the kids will progress. Have a taco, watch other sports, enjoy the summer.

 

[bobby2]

Sorry to derail the thread everyone.

1. All clubs get points allocated, based upon ladder position (lets just use the AFL data).
2. The clubs finishing lower, will have more total points.
3. All clubs are invited to bid (like an auction) for each pick.
4. If you needed a KPP - but didn't have that pick, you could pool points - (which in the same way this impacts on the Academy/F-S picks, pushes you back further in the draft order later on) - to try and outbid someone for that pick and that player.
5. However, the clubs finishing lower will have access to more points, so they'd need to be ok with this.
6. Clubs trading players could either accept equivalent points, or players - which would help improve trading.
7. As you can pool points, a club like Brisbane could then use the picks/points they receive for Aish to bid on a similar player earlier in the draft - as opposed to Pick 34 and next years 28. (example only)
8. As mentioned earlier, you could have a rule that players finishing their rookie contract hold value, so Collingwood/North would need to provide Brisbane with the equivalent of Pick 7 worth of points. This helps Brisbane replace a wantaway player with someone of equivalent value.

And there would need to be a fair bit of tinkering.

I think the auction idea would be quite interesting. It's complicated, but definitely worth exploring.

I don't think having players holding their value over their rookie contract is feasible though. Look at O'Rourke last year. He didn't want to play for the giants anymore, but no club in their right mind would've given them the points equivalent to pick 2. This would have forced him into the PSD, GWS would get nothing for him, he wouldn't get to the club he wanted (just an all-round bad situation for club and player). If players play poorly in their first two years, it makes sense that they should have decreased value (and in the same way, a player picked late who dominates in his first two years should have increased value).

 

[immortalmike]

Wanna bet?

Why would I bet against my own club?

 

[Fultons]

We've seen what happens to teams that push too hard before they're ready. I've waited 23 years, I can wait a few more.



How much of this is just wanting a 'shiny new toy'?

Yeah so can I but something's going on at the kennel that we haven't seen til now. I'm not advocating pushing too hard too soon. I as we all should have faith in our current list. BTC will improve I agree. If lobbe fits the coaches plan rough can do as he's told and play down back.

 

[Dogsman16]

We've seen what happens to teams that push too hard before they're ready. I've waited 23 years, I can wait a few more.



How much of this is just wanting a 'shiny new toy'?

None of it. I just disagree that we can't win the premiership next year. We are an absolute chance to win it.

 

[Fultons]

Why would I bet against my own club?

To back the sentiment of your statement

 

[TedDougChris]

I think the auction idea would be quite interesting. It's complicated, but definitely worth exploring.

I don't think having players holding their value over their rookie contract is feasible though. Look at O'Rourke last year. He didn't want to play for the giants anymore, but no club in their right mind would've given them the points equivalent to pick 2. This would have forced him into the PSD, GWS would get nothing for him, he wouldn't get to the club he wanted (just an all-round bad situation for club and player). If players play poorly in their first two years, it makes sense that they should have decreased value (and in the same way, a player picked late who dominates in his first two years should have increased value).

True, but GWS were willing to accept a trade - so perhaps it's only if the clubs cannot agree to a player or pick swap....

But as I said, there will need to be tinkering....

 

[Dogsman16]

Honestly, I'm reasonably happy with our KPD stocks at this point in time.

Roberts just needs continuity, Hamling is a star in the making and Cordy made greater strides than most of us forecast before the season.

We need somebody to anchor these guys, and it's definitely our most pressing need, but I wouldn't be sounding the alarm because we didn't get that somebody this year.

Don't stress out. We're the best drafters and developers in the league right now, the kids will progress. Have a taco, watch other sports, enjoy the summer.

Cordy is a third tall. He offers good rebound and I think we are allowed to question whether he will ever get the build to take either of the Key defensive posts. Our depth in these positions is non existent and really if you look at it, currently our starting VFL team might not have no geniune KPD's at all at either end (Boyd, Redpath, Roberts and Hamling all I believe will be in the round 1 team - if fit and firing).

Forget Roughead as a KPD either, quite clearly he is best suited to either the first ruck role or (if we can make it work) as a forward/ruck.

To say our KPP depth currently is a very big concern would be an understatement.

 

[LukasTheGreat]

None of it. I just disagree that we can't win the premiership next year. We are an absolute chance to win it.

I hope you're right. I really do

 

[bontshow]

I haven't had the time to look into the points system. Do you think it works , or will we see clubs coming out and complaining that there are loop holes/flaws that have been unfairly exploited this trade period?

The biggest flaw is it doesn't fluctuate from year to year. This year's draft is supposed to be shallow & next years deep, but the points don't change.

The academy clubs are all trading down because the lower picks that teams aren't valuing this year are worth more to them to bid for academy players

 

[immortalmike]

None of it. I just disagree that we can't win the premiership next year. We are an absolute chance to win it.

It may not be an impossibility i.e., there is a possible scenario where all teams currently better than us are banned by WADA or heavily hit by injury, leaving only us, St Kilda, Melbourne and Carlton (insert other teams you think we are definitely better than) vying for the flag. However the unfortunate reality is us winning the flag next year is a heavy improbability.
The Western Bulldogs will not win the 2016 premiership, this is almost entirely certain. Our focus needs to be on what will make the Western Bulldogs winning the 2017-2025 premierships as near certainties as possible.

 

[Rockford18sx2]

There will always be loopholes, and the northern clubs are already exploiting them. As only they have access to the Academy's, they get a larger pool of players to choose from, as opposed to the F/S selections. You have to play 100 games for the club to get F/S, so that rules out Lake at Hawthorn for example, even though he was very successful there. Players like Williams, who was perennially injured - will miss out etc.

But the northern clubs get access to any player who is remotely interested in their specific regions. So it's a deeper pool for them to choose from. So they don't care about the draft positions, they care about the equivalent points, which when combined with the discount they receive, means they are benefitting for more and far more frequently than we will.

Solely using the points for drafting (and in some cases trading), can actually help redress some of the issues that a club like Brisbane are facing. For example, if you had a rule that players don't lose value when they have completed their initial contract - then Brisbane could receive the equivalent points from Collingwood or North (if they cannot agree on a player compensation) that they initially spent on Aish. If you use the points system for bidding on draft picks, they could then bid for Pick 7 this year - which is a much better player than Pick 28 - 30 next year.

This not only helps redress the current 'wanna go to a destination club' issue (as the new club has to give equivalent points away), but also provides better compensation - as Picks 43 and 84 are not the same as Pick 7, even if the value is ***

*** - made up example, points don't actually match.....

It's a pretty complex subject, hope this makes some sense....

Thanks for the reply TedDougChris. It seems that in essence this system favours interstate teams with Academies. Your suggested solution does have merit.

 

[immortalmike]

To back the sentiment of your statement

Once again why would I bet if I am actively hoping it isn't true. Even though in all probability it is.