Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Gough]

Incorrect. Plenty, like me, have concerns about natal men playing in women's sports, but find this Texas stuff unconscionable.

Sport is the weapon du jour of the alt right to bash the trans community. Suddenly everyone is really concerned about NCAA swimming.

 

[kickazz]

Sport is the weapon du jour of the alt right to bash the trans community. Suddenly everyone is really concerned about NCAA swimming.

Maybe, I don't pay much attention to the alt right.

The stories about sports are getting mainstream attention because it is something that people can relate to, and that sets off the bullshit alarm in reasonable, logical, compassionate people. They have questions. The topic should be allowed to be discussed.


Conflating that with wanting a statewide witch-hunt and demonizing people who aren't hurting anybody is absurd.

 

[Gough]

Maybe, I don't pay much attention to the alt right.

The stories about sports are getting mainstream attention because it is something that people can relate to, and that sets off the bullshit alarm in reasonable, logical, compassionate people. They have questions. The topic should be allowed to be discussed.


Conflating that with wanting a statewide witch-hunt and demonizing people who aren't hurting anybody is absurd.

How many examples can you think of where trans woman are dominating sport? Seems to me that for the most part the issue is hypothetical and getting a lot of prominence for something that is effecting so few. It's a proxy.

 

[kickazz]

How many examples can you think of where trans woman are dominating sport? Seems to me that for the most part the issue is hypothetical and getting a lot of prominence for something that is effecting so few. It's a proxy.

Not many. And that's mainly because up until recently it hasn't really been allowed or tested. I think there was a significant one in cycling a little while ago, and I'm aware of the Hannah Mouncy AFL situation.

And why should numbers be the deciding thing here? If I have a rare medical condition that requires me to take a banned substance - even if I'm the only one in the world like that - then guess what? I'm not allowed to compete whilst taking that substance. It really sucks, but that is what is fair on everyone else.

What I do know is that women who are unhappy with the situation for the most part feel the need to raise their concerns anonymously. And this is the tough part. Like you say, transgender people playing women's sport may not turn out to be the big issue some think - but it seems like many people feel unable to even discuss it, lest they be thrown in with the Texas witch-hunt crowd.

 

[Gough]

Not many. And that's mainly because up until recently it hasn't really been allowed or tested. I think there was a significant one in cycling a little while ago, and I'm aware of the Hannah Mouncy AFL situation.

And why should numbers be the deciding thing here? If I have a rare medical condition that requires me to take a banned substance - even if I'm the only one in the world like that - then guess what? I'm not allowed to compete whilst taking that substance. It really sucks, but that is what is fair on everyone else.

What I do know is that women who are unhappy with the situation for the most part feel the need to raise their concerns anonymously. And this is the tough part. Like you say, transgender people playing women's sport may not turn out to be the big issue some think - but it seems like many people feel unable to even discuss it, lest they be thrown in with the Texas witch-hunt crowd.

We have a bill before Parliament seeking to ban trans women from sport and when pressed the author of the Bill couldn't name a single example of this happening. The issue isn't being argued in good faith.

 

[kickazz]

We have a bill before Parliament seeking to ban trans women from sport and when pressed the author of the Bill couldn't name a single example of this happening. The issue isn't being argued in good faith.

It is by some, but I agree that this bill has come out of nowhere without really any proper discussion. Add it to the the LNP's list of wonderous achievements.

 

[kickazz]

FWIW I think there is much more scope for fuller inclusion at the lower levels - we want people to play sport, and it is not so likely that a trans player will dominate here. And if they do, they will most probably (just like non trans players that dominate) seek a higher grade or tougher competition.

As you get higher and toward the elite level however, where tiny advantages are what make the difference, I think it gets more complicated.

 

[owen87]

FWIW I think there is much more scope for fuller inclusion at the lower levels - we want people to play sport, and it is not so likely that a trans player will dominate here. And if they do, they will most probably (just like non trans players that dominate) seek a higher grade or tougher competition.

As you get higher and toward the elite level however, where tiny advantages are what make the difference, I think it gets more complicated.

There's a certain level of sports where I think participation is the relevant metric, and participation in community groups and events should be an activity available to all.

At a certain level, there's no 'right' to be able to compete. I can't go and play in the AFL because I want to, I can't go and compete at the Olympics because I want to.

It sucks for talented trans-men/women who maybe can't compete at the elite level if they wish to do so, but particularly in the case of women's sport, we already segregate the field to provide the opportunity for women to compete at the elite level, otherwise there's very few sports where an elite woman would be able to compete with the elite men.

 

[Gralin]

Incorrect. Plenty, like me, have concerns about natal men playing in women's sports, but find this Texas stuff unconscionable.

this all comes back to people not believing trans women are women

there's really no other way to argue your point

 

[kickazz]

this all comes back to people not believing trans women are women

there's really no other way to argue your point

So close minded, not sure if I should bother...

 

[Eagle Wrath]

this all comes back to people not believing trans women are women

there's really no other way to argue your point

What is a woman?

 

[Gralin]

So close minded, not sure if I should bother...

Closed minded to say the root of the argument against trans women in womens sports is but they were/are men?

That's what it comes down to, people seeing them as different from the rest of the athletes in the sport

What is a woman?

What is a troll?

 

[Eagle Wrath]

What is a troll?

Too tough is it?
Dont worry, even those who identify as woman couldnt answer it

 

[Gralin]

Too tough is it?
Dont worry, even those who identify as woman couldnt answer it

Nah I just know your posting history on this topic so didn't feel obligated to answer your question

 

[Eagle Wrath]

Nah I just know your posting history on this topic so didn't feel obligated to answer your question

My posting history is usually replying to mods who think their opinions are the most important, who also parrot woke ideas.

 

[Gralin]

My posting history is usually replying to mods who think their opinions are the most important, who also parrot woke ideas.

Do you even know what woke means? Like actually means.

 

[kickazz]

Closed minded to say the root of the argument against trans women in womens sports is but they were/are men?

I thought close minded in the sense of lumping all who have queries about trans women in sport in the "trans women are men" brigade.

Now, is the root of the argument against trans women in sport "but they were men"? Well, broadly yes. It's a crude and inelegant way of putting it, but yes I guess it does come down to that in the end.

So let's unpick it a bit, shall we.

An entire separate category has been created in sport, based on the fact that the biology of cis men provide for significant advantages over cis women. So great are these advantages that most agree cis women could not compete at the same level as cis men. Particularly at the elite level - without a separate women's category, there would be hardly any women Olympians. Half the population excluded, just like that.

What is a woman?

You may or may not be a troll, but I'll play the ball on this one - it's a relevant question. In the aforementioned categorisation of men and women for sport, traditionally a woman was defined by their chromosomal biology, and this was measured (I think) via resultant hormone levels. Correct me if I'm a bit out here folks, but I think that is how it was. (An interesting aside here is the impact this has had on Caster Semenya, a cis gendered female athlete with unusually high testosterone levels, who has never been anything other than a woman but has hit speed humps due to the way gender is 'measured' for sport. )

But that is not the only definition of the word, and particularly in the case of trans women, this definition has changed over time I believe. Today, in Victoria, you are legally a woman if your birth certificate says so, and you are free to change what your birth certificates says.

So what's all that got to do with anything?

That's what it comes down to, people seeing them as different from the rest of the athletes in the sport

It's got to do with this bit. They are different. Well, of course they are, we are all different. Now some athletes have an advantage because they have trained or live at altitude, or have particular genes that give them respiratory or muscular advantages over others. Good luck to them - there are no "good genes" and "s**t genes" or "Kenyans" and "non Kenyans" categories in sport, so take that advantage and run with it. Literally.

But as we said before, cis men have clear advantages over cis women, and we have created separate categories because of this. So when assessing trans women's participation in sport the difficult and offensive question, "What is a woman?" surely can have a different answer in the two contexts of a)Society's norms regarding gender and b) The specific category created in sport to allow for those disadvantages by being born female.

And surely it is the answer to b) that matters when it comes to sport.


A number of years ago, a trans woman footballer called Kristy led a really good discussion on BF about this. What I learned from her was that after about two years of hormone therapy, muscle mass / strength in a trans woman was indistinguishable from that of a cis woman. Seems like a pretty reasonable approach to satisfying b)

But then I have read that simply going through a male puberty gives you life long advantages like bigger lungs, stronger bones etc. Interesting - is it enough to make a real ongoing difference though? I don't know, but it would be good to see some data.

And that's where the question should lie - does the "but they were men" line hold any water, or will time show no significant advantage. Like I said earlier, as we get toward the tails of the bell curve, i.e. the elite level, I'm afraid I think it might.

It's a really tough one. Unlike other matters of sports governance, there's no "cheating" involved here. People don't change sex so they can get an advantage at sport. (OK there are 7 billion people in this world, there's always a chance for exceptions, nothing would surprise me). But really, anyone who thinks a man would say "geez, I want to dominate women's sports, I am going to transition" needs their head read, seriously.

 

[kickazz]

What is a woman?

Do you even know what woke means? Like actually means.

Hmm semantics. The changing meaning of words over time and contexts. Interesting.

 

[Gralin]

Hmm semantics. The changing meaning of words over time and contexts. Interesting.

More the weaponising of words by fox news and co

 

[kickazz]

More the weaponising of words by fox news and co

Yeah. I'm a progressive but like to read the Oz for a different angle on things, but I struggle to read any article where they use the word woke. It's bloody cringeworthy. But language evolves whether we like it or not.

 

[Gralin]

I thought close minded in the sense of lumping all who have queries about trans women in sport in the "trans women are men" brigade.

Now, is the root of the argument against trans women in sport "but they were men"? Well, broadly yes. It's a crude and inelegant way of putting it, but yes I guess it does come down to that in the end.

So let's unpick it a bit, shall we.

An entire separate category has been created in sport, based on the fact that the biology of cis men provide for significant advantages over cis women. So great are these advantages that most agree cis women could not compete at the same level as cis men. Particularly at the elite level - without a separate women's category, there would be hardly any women Olympians. Half the population excluded, just like that.



You may or may not be a troll, but I'll play the ball on this one - it's a relevant question. In the aforementioned categorisation of men and women for sport, traditionally a woman was defined by their chromosomal biology, and this was measured (I think) via resultant hormone levels. Correct me if I'm a bit out here folks, but I think that is how it was. (An interesting aside here is the impact this has had on Caster Semenya, a cis gendered female athlete with unusually high testosterone levels, who has never been anything other than a woman but has hit speed humps due to the way gender is 'measured' for sport. )

But that is not the only definition of the word, and particularly in the case of trans women, this definition has changed over time I believe. Today, in Victoria, you are legally a woman if your birth certificate says so, and you are free to change what your birth certificates says.

So what's all that got to do with anything?



It's got to do with this bit. They are different. Well, of course they are, we are all different. Now some athletes have an advantage because they have trained or live at altitude, or have particular genes that give them respiratory or muscular advantages over others. Good luck to them - there are no "good genes" and "sh*t genes" or "Kenyans" and "non Kenyans" categories in sport, so take that advantage and run with it. Literally.

But as we said before, cis men have clear advantages over cis women, and we have created separate categories because of this. So when assessing trans women's participation in sport the difficult and offensive question, "What is a woman?" surely can have a different answer in the two contexts of a)Society's norms regarding gender and b) The specific category created in sport to allow for those disadvantages by being born female.

And surely it is the answer to b) that matters when it comes to sport.


A number of years ago, a trans woman footballer called Kristy led a really good discussion on BF about this. What I learned from her was that after about two years of hormone therapy, muscle mass / strength in a trans woman was indistinguishable from that of a cis woman. Seems like a pretty reasonable approach to satisfying b)

But then I have read that simply going through a male puberty gives you life long advantages like bigger lungs, stronger bones etc. Interesting - is it enough to make a real ongoing difference though? I don't know, but it would be good to see some data.

And that's where the question should lie - does the "but they were men" line hold any water, or will time show no significant advantage. Like I said earlier, as we get toward the tails of the bell curve, i.e. the elite level, I'm afraid I think it might.

It's a really tough one. Unlike other matters of sports governance, there's no "cheating" involved here. People don't change sex so they can get an advantage at sport. (OK there are 7 billion people in this world, there's always a chance for exceptions, nothing would surprise me). But really, anyone who thinks a man would say "geez, I want to dominate women's sports, I am going to transition" needs their head read, seriously.

There's also racism involved in the Caster Semenya situation.

We saw similar with the Williams sisters in tennis.

We've also not seen as has been pointed out trans athletes coming in and dominating sports or competitions.

We've seen a lot of noise and lies about this from certain groups, its a political argument and it's not being had in good faith by those pushing to exclude.

It's just their latest attempt at othering and excluding a group they have an illogical hatred of

 

[Gralin]

Yeah. I'm a progressive but like to read the Oz for a different angle on things, but I struggle to read any article where they use the word woke. It's bloody cringeworthy. But language evolves whether we like it or not.

Alert to racial prejudice and discrimination

You can see why the racists have tried to make it the catch all for social justice issues

I've got no interest in letting them win that argument

 

[Eagle Wrath]

We've also not seen as has been pointed out trans athletes coming in and dominating sports or competitions.

You are either completely naive, or a liar.

Here are just a few I know of.

Swimming
Transgender swimmers Iszac Henig and Lia Thomas have both set new records at the Ivy League Women’s Swimming Championships. While the Yale swimmer set a record, he also lost one, in the Women’s 100 Freestyle, to fellow trans competitor Lia Thomas from the University of Pennsylvania.

Weightlifting
We have seen a Laurel Hubbard, the New Zealand trans weightlifter represent NZ, denying all other female athletes from NZ from getting a chance.

Mary Gregory on April 27, strode onto the platform at the Best Western hotel just east of Charlottesville and wowed the spectators and fellow powerlifters in attendance. That night she posted a picture on Instagram of herself holding the trophy, telling her 120 followers about the records she set for her age and weight class in the 100% Raw Powerlifting Federation, which organized the day’s competition.
“What a day, 9 for 9!” she posted. “Masters world squat record, open world bench record, masters world dl record, and masters world total record!

Cycling
Veronica Ivy is transgender and a Canadian competitive cyclist. In 2018, she became the first transgender world track cycling champion by placing first at the UCI Women's Masters Track World Championship for the women's 35–44 age bracket . Sha has recently set a world record time in sprint cycling.

Track
Yearwood, a 17-year-old junior at Cromwell High School, is one of two transgender high school sprinters in Connecticut, transitioning to female.

She recently finished second in the 55-meter dash at the state open indoor track championships. The winner, Terry Miller of Bloomfield High, is also transgender and set a girls state indoor record of 6.95 seconds. Yearwood finished in 7.01 seconds and the third-place competitor, who is not transgender, finished in 7.23 seconds.

Jonathan Eastwood, one of the better male middle-distance runners in the Big Sky Conference the previous three years, began competing as a woman after undergoing a year of hormone therapy per NCAA rules. She not only won the women’s mile race in the indoor conference championships, but she beat her nearest rival by a whopping 4½ seconds. She also rallied Montana’s distance medley relay team from seventh place to second by making up more than eight seconds on the final 1,600-meter leg. Because of the pandemic, she never got to compete outdoors in 2020.

Volleyball
Tifanny Abreu, 33, is the first transgender volleyball player to make it to Brazil’s top ranks. After joining the women’s professional league last year, Ms. Abreu’s performance on the court quickly caught the nation’s attention. In less than a month, she was scoring the highest number of points a game on average. And in January, she beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39

MMA
Fallon Fox, the first MMA fighter to come out as transgender, once fractured the skull of her opponent in an MMA fight in 2014.
Fox was challenging Tamikka Brents at CCCW (Capital City Cage Wars) event, where the 45-year-old fighter brutally defeated her American opponent. The fight lasted just over two minutes after the referee was forced to halt the contest.


Just wait until this is allowed in the Olympics.

It begs the question, shouldv'e this female Chinese swimmer below, been banned for doping. Perhaps it should be allowed too. She still would struggle to beat a trans female in a race anyway.

 

[Gralin]

You are either completely naive, or a liar.

Here are just a few I know of.

Swimming
Transgender swimmers Iszac Henig and Lia Thomas have both set new records at the Ivy League Women’s Swimming Championships. While the Yale swimmer set a record, he also lost one, in the Women’s 100 Freestyle, to fellow trans competitor Lia Thomas from the University of Pennsylvania.

Weightlifting
We have seen a Laurel Hubbard, the New Zealand trans weightlifter represent NZ, denying all other female athletes from NZ from getting a chance.

Mary Gregory on April 27, strode onto the platform at the Best Western hotel just east of Charlottesville and wowed the spectators and fellow powerlifters in attendance. That night she posted a picture on Instagram of herself holding the trophy, telling her 120 followers about the records she set for her age and weight class in the 100% Raw Powerlifting Federation, which organized the day’s competition.
“What a day, 9 for 9!” she posted. “Masters world squat record, open world bench record, masters world dl record, and masters world total record!

Cycling
Veronica Ivy is transgender and a Canadian competitive cyclist. In 2018, she became the first transgender world track cycling champion by placing first at the UCI Women's Masters Track World Championship for the women's 35–44 age bracket . Sha has recently set a world record time in sprint cycling.

Track
Yearwood, a 17-year-old junior at Cromwell High School, is one of two transgender high school sprinters in Connecticut, transitioning to female.

She recently finished second in the 55-meter dash at the state open indoor track championships. The winner, Terry Miller of Bloomfield High, is also transgender and set a girls state indoor record of 6.95 seconds. Yearwood finished in 7.01 seconds and the third-place competitor, who is not transgender, finished in 7.23 seconds.

Jonathan Eastwood, one of the better male middle-distance runners in the Big Sky Conference the previous three years, began competing as a woman after undergoing a year of hormone therapy per NCAA rules. She not only won the women’s mile race in the indoor conference championships, but she beat her nearest rival by a whopping 4½ seconds. She also rallied Montana’s distance medley relay team from seventh place to second by making up more than eight seconds on the final 1,600-meter leg. Because of the pandemic, she never got to compete outdoors in 2020.

Volleyball
Tifanny Abreu, 33, is the first transgender volleyball player to make it to Brazil’s top ranks. After joining the women’s professional league last year, Ms. Abreu’s performance on the court quickly caught the nation’s attention. In less than a month, she was scoring the highest number of points a game on average. And in January, she beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39

MMA
Fallon Fox, the first MMA fighter to come out as transgender, once fractured the skull of her opponent in an MMA fight in 2014.
Fox was challenging Tamikka Brents at CCCW (Capital City Cage Wars) event, where the 45-year-old fighter brutally defeated her American opponent. The fight lasted just over two minutes after the referee was forced to halt the contest.


Just wait until this is allowed in the Olympics.

It begs the question, shouldv'e this female Chinese swimmer below, been banned for doping. Perhaps it should be allowed too. She still would struggle to beat a trans female in a race anyway.

So the whole twist of this is putting their success down to being trans
And i know the TERFs trawl the internet for anything they can use
But this is a small list of wins and as usual all the losses are ignored

Its cool that you're a rabid bigot though, must keep you warm at night

 

[Eagle Wrath]

So the whole twist of this is putting their success down to being trans
And i know the TERFs trawl the internet for anything they can use
But this is a small list of wins and as usual all the losses are ignored

Its cool that you're a rabid bigot though, must keep you warm at night

Wow. U claim that they have done nothing in sports and when shown otherwise, you double down on your idiocy. You must really hate females competing. Well at this rate you will get your wish and see all male sports.
Small list (all I could be bothered posting for you) of records that may never be beaten again, until a better trans athlete comes along.
BTW, the main ones complaining are female athletes, coaches and parents.

Bigot, terf, racist, transphobic. Is that the best argument your types have.