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Transgender

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Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...
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Geelong_Sicko said:
Sometimes the only way forward is through this kind of trial-and-error. Concrete proofs can be obtained that support one argument or another.

As long as all participants are consenting adults and know the potential risks involved...
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so you either fight her or you withdraw from the tournament?

sounds reasonable
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Sometimes the only way forward is through this kind of trial-and-error. Concrete proofs can be obtained that support one argument or another.

As long as all participants are consenting adults and know the potential risks involved...
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I disagree
These women no matter how well trained will get seriously hurt
A 75kg man will hit a lot harder and faster than a 75kg woman
 

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CM86 said:
So to be clear... you don't think it's a disease... you were just asking me if it was a disease?
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the point was more that you didn't think it was a mental illness and alluded to the involvement of medical professionals.

i was more curious as to your opinion - i'll admit that it i can't say what it is.
 
Gough said:
Homosexuality was on the DSM until the 1970s too. We've heard all these tired arguments before.
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You are as slippery and duplicitous as the best Liberal politician.

It was you who asserted that gender dysphoria was as scientifically valid as gravity, ignoring that the only discipline of science (if it could be called that) which classifies the condition is psychology, and it does so in the DSM.

To think you whinge about post-truth when you can't even maintain a logically consistent argument.

Gough said:
How do you "destroy" gender dysphoria? It exists, it's recognised by science, and there are numerous examples of it. Looking forward to this genius "destroying" gravity next.
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Which is it Gough? Recognised by science and as valid as gravity or wrong because the DSM got it wrong before?
 
checkraiseulite said:
to an extent i don't care what she does so long as it doesn't interfere with other people.

having her absolutely dominate girls' sport is ridiculous, particularly in a country where sporting success is a window to so much opportunity (college scholarships etc).

no doubt people in the article are petrified of being labelled bigots if they make any comment other than supportive nonsense.
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That is indeed why Title IX was introduced in the 70s in the US, to bring equity to women in education scholarships, who had been denied the very lucrative sports scholarships because women's sport was seen as second rate. With the redefinition of what a woman is that can quite likely slip away, which is why many left wing radical feminists are fighting the notion of 'gender identity'.

The interesting thing about the case ABSOLUTE MADMAN posted is that the transgender athlete involved is pre-op and not on any hormone or puberty blockers. So in absolutes, a biological male.
 
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Geelong_Sicko said:
It's a fight. Both participants know exactly what they're in for violence-wise. They train for this. It's not exactly like domestic violence, igon.
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The women train for fighting against other women, in their weight class.

You previously said that forfeit rules would apply. So if a woman wishes not to be beaten by a man, they would have to forfeit. Meaning the man wins by default - and you have no way of testing your hypothesis.
 
igon value said:
The women train for fighting against other women, in their weight class.

You previously said that forfeit rules would apply. So if a woman wishes not to be beaten by a man, they would have to forfeit. Meaning the man wins by default - and you have no way of testing your hypothesis.
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True. We'd have to wait and see though, wouldn't we? I mean, society would never progress if it were paralysed by fear of hypothetical outcomes. Often, the only way forward IS forward. This might be one of those times.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
True. We'd have to wait and see though, wouldn't we? I mean, society would never progress if it were paralysed by fear of hypothetical outcomes. Often, the only way forward IS forward. This might be one of those times.
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Oh god, more mealy-mouthed feelgoodery.

What does society progress to?
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
What has it already progressed to? And your denouncement of 'feelgoodery' does absolutely nothing for your argument.
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You repeatedly invoke some divining arrow of progress as being good in and of itself. As I have pointed out to you earlier - 20th century movements like eugenics and temperance were 'progressive'. Progressive does not mean good, and society progressing can do harm. An appeal to progress is not a logical argument.
 

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igon value said:
You repeatedly invoke some divining arrow of progress as being good in and of itself. As I have pointed out to you earlier - 20th century movements like eugenics and temperance were 'progressive'. Progressive does not mean good, and society progressing can do harm. An appeal to progress is not a logical argument.
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There are dead-ends and no-roads, always. Humanity doesn't always get it right. It never has and it never will. But it keeps trying. That's the main thing, igon. It tries.
 
WA ROO said:
I disagree
These women no matter how well trained will get seriously hurt
A 75kg man will hit a lot harder and faster than a 75kg woman
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Will a 75 kg transgender woman who has undergone gender confirmation surgery and has had her hormonal levels reduced to be within a normal female range for over 2 plus years hit harder and faster and have more endurance, I say clearly no they wouldn't if they were both were equally matched in experience and training regimes.

Unfortunately the IOC and AFL doesn't require transgender athletes to have to wait two years or even have gender surgery its 12 months which given my experience and that of other trans athletes I know is not enough time to negate the strength and endurance male puberty gave male to female athletes. I have a whole AMA thread conducted over two plus years on big footy if anyone is interested. In this AMA I gave detailed examples of the effects hormone therapy had on myself and how it affected my strength and endurance.

Unfortunately the scenario you are predicting is happening in women's AFL right now. A simple name change and confirmation letter from a doctor is all that has been required by a trans player in country Victoria to make her AFL debut this year, no surgical or testosterone reduction is not a requirement of the AFL anymore.
 
kirsti said:
Unfortunately the scenario you are predicting is happening in women's AFL right now. A simple name change and confirmation letter from a doctor is all that has been required by a trans player in country Victoria to make her AFL debut this year, no surgical or testosterone reduction is not a requirement of the AFL anymore.
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It's an interesting point you raise - you are of the view you have to undergo some transition to compete and qualify as biologically equal to women. But there is a growing political view that biological sex is simply a construct, and a person can be biologically equivalent to what ever sex that matches their gender identity.

A person holding your view about a need for material transition might be seen as bigoted by those who believe biological sex is a construct.
 
kirsti said:
Unfortunately the scenario you are predicting is happening in women's AFL right now. A simple name change and confirmation letter from a doctor is all that has been required by a trans player in country Victoria to make her AFL debut this year, no surgical or testosterone reduction is not a requirement of the AFL anymore.
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Transfer this to boxing
There is a womens 75kg Middleweight division at the 2020 Olympics
Under the IOC rules you could effectively have men competing
That is wrong,horribly wrong
 
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