Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Gralin]

There’s limited health conditions that are performance enhancing, most are performing limiting.

It sucks for female athletes with testosterone levels that are multiple standard deviations beyond the norm, but she’s effectively on steroids due to a medical condition, such is the category of performances her times put her in.

She’s also not the only one, just the most well known, the 800m women’s podium at the Rio Olympics was entirely made up of intersex athletes for example.

I know she's not the only one, like I said previously there's a long history of discrimination against intersex athletes in women's sports.

As far as I know there is an assumption that higher T levels automatically translate into increased performance but the reality isn't so cut and dry with how everyones body reacts to the hormone.

As in higher T levels aren't guaranteed to enhance performance in everyone.

And obviously not all sports are equal in what helps you excel.

Blanket bans on trans women might sound easy, ignoring fairness for now the end result will be felt by everyone when it comes to policing this.

Again we've had this in women's sports before, genital inspections, other tests, it's how some athletes have found out they're intersex in the first place.

We don't screen the guys this way, I'm not a fan of it.

As a response to reality I also think it's extreme.

As a response to political pressure from the groups pushing this it's expected

 

[tess]

Sadly many of the current generation of Trans identifying people are self diagnosed. In others words they’re living with a form of Munchausens, or in young kids being pushed by parents it’s MUNCHAUSENS by Proxy.

No surgeon anywhere will do the full gender reassignment surgery without a genuine and recognised diagnoses ...... not a self diagnoses.

Genuine Trans people just wanna do the change and get on with life, the fakes are the ones making noise about more rights. Trans is a shortened word for Transition. Trans wasn’t meant to be a permenant it’s Transitioning Gender.

 

[evolved2]

My question would be how do you define female only advocating feminists?

As in what does that look like and mean.

And I promise not to ban you for answering.

I can't answer your question without knowing what you mean.


Germaine Greer was considered a rad fem decades ago.

Radical feminism was a thing before the trans exclusionary was added.

There are feminsts that are anti sex work, there are many feminists throughout history that were racist or homophobic.

Their brand of feminism was as you'd expect tied to their identity and their ideology.

Greer doesn't agree with you that trans women are women btw.

I'm aware of Greers views, and I disagree with her about trans women.

I find feminists who are anti-sex work to be weird and self-defeating in some ways. No doubt you think the same of TERFS.

A female-only advocating feminist stands for the rights of females with no consideration of bio-males, so they should also promote rights of ftm trans but not mtf, amongst other things. Is it unreasonable or transphobic to think that some aspects of life (sport/prison/public toilets) are better separated by biological sex rather than gender?

 

[Stax on the mill]

I'm remember her from then. Harford had to tell her to shut up at times.
There was a interview on sbs with her because she was an Iranian immigrant where she said she would never give money to a homeless person because it would not help them.
Her sustained attacks on Thorpe and Indigenous people are disgusting.

The most disgusting thing about this thread is your sycophantic and groveling support of Lidia Thorpe. But hey, based on your posting history, I'm not at all surprised. She is a disgrace of a person and politician, who incites violence, hatred and division in this country, and obviously that's the way you roll as well.

The Greens have got a lot to answer for by putting Thorpe on their ticket and getting her elected to the Senate. Thanks to them and fawning simpletons like you, we're stuck with this leech, bludging off the public purse for the next 5 years.

 

[Gralin]

I'm aware of Greers views, and I disagree with her about trans women.

I find feminists who are anti-sex work to be weird and self-defeating in some ways. No doubt you think the same of TERFS.

A female-only advocating feminist stands for the rights of females with no consideration of bio-males, so they should also promote rights of ftm trans but not mtf, amongst other things. Is it unreasonable or transphobic to think that some aspects of life (sport/prison/public toilets) are better separated by biological sex rather than gender?

Right so you are asking if feminists that want to exclude trans women from their feminism can exist without being called trans exclusionary feminists?

 

[evolved2]

Right so you are asking if feminists that want to exclude trans women from their feminism can exist without being called trans exclusionary feminists?

They can. Whether they're radical is a different question.

 

[Gralin]

The most disgusting thing about this thread is your sycophantic and fawning support of Lidia Thorpe. But hey, based on your posting history, I'm not at all surprised. She is a disgrace of a person and politician, who incites violence and division in this country. The Greens have got a lot to answer for by putting her on their ticket. Thanks to them and simpletons like you we're stuck with this leech, bludging off the public purse for the next 5 years.

Incites violence how?

 

[Gralin]

They can. Whether they're radical is a different question.

But they are being trans exclusionary in your example.

They're saying men aren't included in their feminism but they're including trans men and excluding trans women.

Both of those acts deny the identity of the people on question.

 

[Kram]

Good to see athletics found the courage to make the correct decision like swimming.

 

[evolved2]

But they are being trans exclusionary in your example.

They're saying men aren't included in their feminism but they're including trans men and excluding trans women.

Both of those acts deny the identity of the people on question.

Yes. Identity is important, as are biological differences.

In your idea of a perfect world, would would change in respect to gender/sex?

 

[Gralin]

Yes. Identity is important, as are biological differences.

Nope.
If you're having to caveat like that you don't think identity is important on their terms.

In your idea of a perfect world, would would change in respect to gender/sex?

You've still not explained how you think exclusionary femism isn't exclusionary

 

[Cap]

Incites violence how?

Do you see how annoyed white men get when talking about her

 

[Gralin]

Do you see how annoyed white men get when talking about her

Oh yeah big time

 

[evolved2]

Nope.
If you're having to caveat like that you don't think identity is important on their terms.

Why did you get that impression? It is important, but protecting females is important also. I'd expect the right rather than left to exclude females from the discussion.

Why do you view females as radical for seeking their own rights?

You've still not explained how you think exclusionary femism isn't exclusionary

It is exclusionary, and often for good reason with respect to sport, public toilets, and prisons. That's justified exclusion imo, as I've stated all along.

Trans rights are important, as are female rights. It's a weird world where I'm a bigot for holding these views.

 

[evolved2]

Do you see how annoyed white men get when talking about her

Really? JFC.

 

[Cap]

Really? JFC.

Quiet clearly it's on the money, look at you. Can't even resist responding to an obvious tounge in cheek remark

 

[evolved2]

Quiet clearly it's on the money, look at you.

She's a coloured version of Pauline Hanson. It's fascinating to see who defends her (mostly white men), and theorise as to why.

Can't even resist responding to an obvious tounge in cheek remark

Most of my posts on the SRP are in response to obvious bullshit.

Anyway, this discussion is off topic. I'm happy to continue on another thread.

 

[Cap]

She's a coloured version of Pauline Hanson. It's fascinating to see who defends her (mostly white men), and theorise as to why.

Most of my posts on the SRP are in response to obvious bullshit.

Anyway, this discussion is off topic. I'm happy to continue on another thread.

I care little for her. But I like to mock people like you who are easily triggered

But your comparison is pretty funny. Says a lot about your state of mind

 

[mcnulty]

She's a coloured version of Pauline Hanson. It's fascinating to see who defends her (mostly white men), and theorise as to why.

I’d say more Latham than Hanson. A spectacle in search of an audience.

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

The most disgusting thing about this thread is your sycophantic and groveling support of Lidia Thorpe. But hey, based on your posting history, I'm not at all surprised. She is a disgrace of a person and politician, who incites violence, hatred and division in this country, and obviously that's the way you roll as well.

The Greens have got a lot to answer for by putting Thorpe on their ticket and getting her elected to the Senate. Thanks to them and fawning simpletons like you, we're stuck with this leech, bludging off the public purse for the next 5 years.

Watch yourself, you're close to giving a racist rant buddy.
Lidia Thorpe is an activist fighting for marginal groups in society. There is nothing disgusting about her. You're scared of her.
What has she done to offend you snowflake?
Kiss an ex-bikie, ask questions about the Voice which has no legal standing? Demand a treaty and sovereignty which all other Indigenous groups have? Protest hateful transphobes? Protest the corrupt racist NSW police?
Demand climate action?
What's disgusting about that. Like I say, back up your borderline misogynist racist attack with a reason.
She too uppity for you? You're the disgrace and a parrot for the sycaphant Murdoch puppets like racist Rita and Andrew Bolt.
You need to have a good look at yourself mate. Did you have a laugh when the police knocked her over ?

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

She's a coloured version of Pauline Hanson. It's fascinating to see who defends her (mostly white men), and theorise as to why.

Most of my posts on the SRP are in response to obvious bullshit.

Anyway, this discussion is off topic. I'm happy to continue on another thread.

You're comparing a racist climate denier on the take from the coal lobby with an grass roots Indigenous women activist. What a joke of a comparison.

 

[Alberto_Magnifico]

Cool Lidia Thorpe thread, would read again

 

[Kram]

It's fascinating to see who defends her (mostly white men), and theorise as to why.

I can't hate her. She's so transparent in her self interest, that I kind of respect her. Would I buy a car from her? No.

 

[Not Important]

bragg is on the money and a star, but bet the cookers don’t see it that way.

 

[faible]

I know she's not the only one, like I said previously there's a long history of discrimination against intersex athletes in women's sports.

Agree.

As far as I know there is an assumption that higher T levels automatically translate into increased performance but the reality isn't so cut and dry with how everyones body reacts to the hormone.

As in higher T levels aren't guaranteed to enhance performance in everyone

Sure, but in this case we know it's performance enhancing. We've seen Semenya's performances at different T levels to know. We've seen the Rio 800m podium (when the hormone rules were relaxed) to know. There is a performance advantage for these particular athletes.

And obviously not all sports are equal in what helps you excel.

Agree, as I said, where sports are predominantly determined by physical capability it will apply differently to one where other factors are at play e.g. skills, or things like chess or equestrian.

Blanket bans on trans women might sound easy, ignoring fairness for now the end result will be felt by everyone when it comes to policing this.

Ignoring fairness to who? You regularly speak about fairness but are only concerned about fairness for the minority of intersex or transgender athletes as opposed to the biological female athletes without a DSD condition who make up the majority of the field and who appear to be a level below the DSD athletes when competing unrestricted.

Again we've had this in women's sports before, genital inspections, other tests, it's how some athletes have found out they're intersex in the first place.

Slippery slope fallacy.

We don't screen the guys this way, I'm not a fan of it.

Because the 'male' category is basically the unrestricted category.

As a response to reality I also think it's extreme.

What reality though? We know intersex athletes in the 800m event can perform at a level only matched by (highly likely) steroid driven performances of other women.

As a response to political pressure from the groups pushing this it's expected

You like to lump all these groups together as TERFs, I know. But there's a large number of biological women who compete in sport that apparently have no right to any opinions of their own under Gralin's world view. Your view however, is paramount.