Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Gethelred]

I got a good insight into this years ago.

She used to be on SEN with Daniel Harford on Fridays for some reason. Anyway somehow the conversation came around to someone who lived in Broadmeadows who had their house burgled and stuff.

Her response?

"It's their fault for living there"


Wish I had the audio of it. Fair to say I don't bother reading anything she writes. What a turd.

I wrote into SEN after that, and told them I'd never listen to them again without an explanation.

 

[ShanDog]

World Athletics restricts rules around transgender women in female competitions

Similar to swimming’s ruling last year I believe.

A sensible decision, particularly because they are setting up a working group with varying stakeholders (including trans athletes) to perform further research into the issue.

 

[Gralin]

A sensible decision, particularly because they are setting up a working group with varying stakeholders (including trans athletes) to perform further research into the issue.

given the push to block minors from accessing trans healthcare, in some states they are trying to just make it illegal, in others they are pushing for a starting age in their 20s

its pretty much a blanket ban on trans people competing without having the guts to say it

and they've also again targeted intersex athletes at the same time, not so sure whats sensible about it given its not been an issue up until this point

 

[ShanDog]

given the push to block minors from accessing trans healthcare, in some states they are trying to just make it illegal, in others they are pushing for a starting age in their 20s

its pretty much a blanket ban on trans people competing without having the guts to say it

and they've also again targeted intersex athletes at the same time, not so sure whats sensible about it given its not been an issue up until this point

Not that I endorse the policies, if they can't access the healthcare, then they are perfectly eligible to compete in whatever sex category they belong in, no?

Calling intersex athletes in sport 'not an issue' is ridiculous. Of course it has been.

 

[faible]

and they've also again targeted intersex athletes at the same time, not so sure whats sensible about it given its not been an issue up until this point

Wut?

Semenya (and athletes like her) have been an 'issue' for over a decade now, as far back as 2009 she was subject to a sex verification test.

 

[Gough]

Right now it looks like they're basing their rules around what might happen.

 

[Gralin]

Wut?

Semenya (and athletes like her) have been an 'issue' for over a decade now, as far back as 2009 she was subject to a sex verification test.

I meant trans athletes dominating elite sport has not been an issue

Semenya does point to the historic issues of womens sports governance and how they demonise women that do too well and look for ways to discredit them

 

[Gralin]

Not that I endorse the policies, if they can't access the healthcare, then they are perfectly eligible to compete in whatever sex category they belong in, no?

ah yes they can compete where they belong, that's kind of an endorsement of the policies

Calling intersex athletes in sport 'not an issue' is ridiculous. Of course it has been.

see above post

 

[faible]

I meant trans athletes dominating elite sport has not been an issue

Semenya does point to the historic issues of womens sports governance and how they demonise women that do too well and look for ways to discredit them

You're going to need to expand on this one, given there's plenty of women that have done well and aren't demonised.

Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce is incredibly well respected for example.

There's something that sets Semenya (and similar athletes) apart from the rest of the women's field; testosterone levels orders of magnitude higher than the rest. Arguably the sample levels of elite athletes testosterone is skewed due to doping practices as well.

 

[kickazz]

Right now it looks like they're basing their rules around what might happen.

It's part that, and part acknowledging the fundamental reason a separate female category was created in the first place.

On the latter, I don't think anyone with a basic grasp of logic can argue against it. It doesn't mean that it cannot change, particularly as more is learnt.

As for what might happen? Well as we get decent volume of data then sensible adjustments will be not only more justifiable, but the right thing to do.

 

[ShanDog]

ah yes they can compete where they belong, that's kind of an endorsement of the policies

Don't ever accuse me of that.

 

[Gralin]

You're going to need to expand on this one, given there's plenty of women that have done well and aren't demonised.

Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce is incredibly well respected for example.

There's something that sets Semenya (and similar athletes) apart from the rest of the women's field; testosterone levels orders of magnitude higher than the rest. Arguably the sample levels of elite athletes testosterone is skewed due to doping practices as well.

Gee I wonder what could be different about Semenya than Fraser-Pryce?

Like this is exactly what I was talking about

 

[Gralin]

Don't ever accuse me of that.

Or what?
You're not complaining about anything happening to trans women, you just shrug it off and go but her der sports

 

[ShanDog]

Or what?
You're not complaining about anything happening to trans women, you just shrug it off and go but her der sports

Alright I'm out again. You're quite the turd of a human.

 

[kickazz]

Right now it looks like they're basing their rules around what might happen.

It's a good thought this one - with anything in life we can be conservative, and preserve what we have; or we can let things be for a while, see what happens, (indeed enjoy improvements we could never imagine otherwise) then make rule changes if we see the need.

Why would you think most people, even many progressives, are taking the conservative side with this one? Is it about erring on the side of 50% of the population vs <1%? Is it because the old idea of gender are so indelibly ingrained in society's thinking?

 

[faible]

Gee I wonder what could be different about Semenya than Fraser-Pryce?

Like this is exactly what I was talking about

One is running a testosterone level orders of magnitude higher than others due to a medical condition?

 

[kickazz]

<post deleted>

Yeah nah.

Language evolves and changes all the time. There are heaps of words who's meanings have changed and there'll be heaps more.

for example:

Terrific
Fast
Awesome / Awful
Digit
Silly
Egregious
Presently
Gay
Fantastic
Nice
campaigner

 

[Gralin]

One is running a testosterone level orders of magnitude higher than others due to a medical condition?

yes one has naturally higher levels of testosterone and they've been trying to push her out of competing for pretty much her entire career

its interesting how sport is supposedly a celebration of peak physical performance, people with genetic advantages get to compete, unless that advantage happens to be a hormone that is seen as male

 

[CASEYS9420]

Yeah nah.

Language evolves and changes all the time. There are heaps of words who's meanings have changed and there'll be heaps more.

for example:

Terrific
Fast
Awesome / Awful
Digit
Silly
Egregious
Presently
Gay
Fantastic
Nice
campaigner

I actually agree with your argument, thats why I was reluctant to post the comment and ultimately deleted it.

 

[kickazz]

yes one has naturally higher levels of testosterone and they've been trying to push her out of competing for pretty much her entire career

its interesting how sport is supposedly a celebration of peak physical performance, people with genetic advantages get to compete, unless that advantage happens to be a hormone that is seen as male

Indeed, she has had a rough time of it in that regard, unfairly. There are men with naturally high testosterone levels too.

BTW the hormone is not "seen as" male, it is male. Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic but seen as implies popular opinion as opposed to scientific fact.

I actually agree with your argument, thats why I was reluctant to post the comment and ultimately deleted it.

Yeah I think having sex and gender mean different things is useful. Broadening the definition of gender to include all the social construct stuff (male occupations, girl's toys, how one identifies/sees themselves in society and so on) is useful in communication and thinking.

 

[Gough]

It's a good thought this one - with anything in life we can be conservative, and preserve what we have; or we can let things be for a while, see what happens, (indeed enjoy improvements we could never imagine otherwise) then make rule changes if we see the need.

Why would you think most people, even many progressives, are taking the conservative side with this one? Is it about erring on the side of 50% of the population vs <1%? Is it because the old idea of gender are so indelibly ingrained in society's thinking?

I think it might be as simple as the idea of transgenderism being difficult for people to get their head around. Even growing up as a gay bloke I never doubted the body I'd been born into and I still find it hard to imagine how difficult things must be for someone who's born like that.

 

[kickazz]

I think it might be as simple as the idea of transgenderism being difficult for people to get their head around. Even growing up as a gay bloke I never doubted the body I'd been born into and I still find it hard to imagine how difficult things must be for someone who's born like that.

Yeah. 100%

It is one of the most fundamental things in the history of human and animal existence - there's boys and there's girls. There has never really been a place for anything else, you were assumed to be one or the other. And so many opportunities, rules, and well, every aspect of life almost is contingent on which one of those you are. If you don't fit? Can't imagine how hard that would be, everyday.

 

[faible]

yes one has naturally higher levels of testosterone and they've been trying to push her out of competing for pretty much her entire career

its interesting how sport is supposedly a celebration of peak physical performance, people with genetic advantages get to compete, unless that advantage happens to be a hormone that is seen as male

They've asked her to reduce her testosterone levels to lower levels, then removed it, then added it, then removed it, and have added it again. Undoubtedly it's a horribly shit position for her to be in. However how does that square with allowing the rest of the field to compete fairly within the 'normal' bounds of female physiology.

We don't allow biological men to compete in the female category because of their naturally higher testosterone levels (among other things) and most people are pretty fine with that. Semenya is in the unfortunate position of having a condition that means she exists in a world between the men's and women's categories, she's grown up and lived her entire life as a female, but has testosterone levels drastically higher than the women she competes against.

Her times are pretty exceptional;

Women's 800m

800m, 800 metres, 800 meters, statistics

www.alltime-athletics.com

Of that list there's a number of women who competed in the unrestricted steroid era of the 80s, Semenya and Niyonsaba who we know have been subject to the hormone level ruling, Jelimo who left the sport before that came in but google shows <questions> and it's taken until Athing Mu in 2021 to really get anywhere close (but not close to beating them) to those times.

Do you think they're trying to push her out (or reduce her testosterone levels) because they don't like her specifically winning for <reasons> or do you think there's an element of recognition that she has an advantage that goes above and beyond the normal level of advantages elite athletes have (given they're mostly all at the end of the bell curve in terms of physical gifts anyway)?

 

[Gralin]

They've asked her to reduce her testosterone levels to lower levels, then removed it, then added it, then removed it, and have added it again. Undoubtedly it's a horribly s**t position for her to be in. However how does that square with allowing the rest of the field to compete fairly within the 'normal' bounds of female physiology.

We don't allow biological men to compete in the female category because of their naturally higher testosterone levels (among other things) and most people are pretty fine with that. Semenya is in the unfortunate position of having a condition that means she exists in a world between the men's and women's categories, she's grown up and lived her entire life as a female, but has testosterone levels drastically higher than the women she competes against.

Her times are pretty exceptional;

Women's 800m

800m, 800 metres, 800 meters, statistics

www.alltime-athletics.com

Of that list there's a number of women who competed in the unrestricted steroid era of the 80s, Semenya and Niyonsaba who we know have been subject to the hormone level ruling, Jelimo who left the sport before that came in but google shows <questions> and it's taken until Athing Mu in 2021 to really get anywhere close (but not close to beating them) to those times.

Do you think they're trying to push her out (or reduce her testosterone levels) because they don't like her specifically winning for <reasons> or do you think there's an element of recognition that she has an advantage that goes above and beyond the normal level of advantages elite athletes have (given they're mostly all at the end of the bell curve in terms of physical gifts anyway)?

I think it's a bit of both.

I think they'd rather she just quit and made life easier for them.

Do they monitor and cap anything else naturally occuring for elite athletes?

Or is it just testosterone in women's comps?

 

[faible]

I think it's a bit of both.

I think they'd rather she just quit and made life easier for them.

Do they monitor and cap anything else naturally occuring for elite athletes?

Or is it just testosterone in women's comps?

There’s limited health conditions that are performance enhancing, most are performing limiting.

It sucks for female athletes with testosterone levels that are multiple standard deviations beyond the norm, but she’s effectively on steroids due to a medical condition, such is the category of performances her times put her in.

She’s also not the only one, just the most well known, the 800m women’s podium at the Rio Olympics was entirely made up of intersex athletes for example.