Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Scotland]

More women than men would be against 'you can use any bathroom you want', surely?

 

[CM86]

Having a read of the procedures, medications, operations, specialists et al...

Seems to be a lot of work, just to have a sneaky perv on women washing their hands in the bathroom.

 

[igon value]

Having a read of the procedures, medications, operations, specialists et al...

Seems to be a lot of work, just to have a sneaky perv on women washing their hands in the bathroom.

Who says you need to go all through that?

 

[Lethality]

Read back to the bump: it's about men competing as women in sports. Eg the formerly male NZ weightlifter who smoked the women's competition in Melbourne.

Also currently male.

 

[Lethality]

Having a read of the procedures, medications, operations, specialists et al...

Seems to be a lot of work, just to have a sneaky perv on women washing their hands in the bathroom.

I'm gender fluid, which means I am often 48 different genders within the space of 3 hours. I recently enrolled into grade prep because i identify as a 6 year old girl. Looking forward to going through primary school again.

 

[CM86]

Who says you need to go all through that?

Well it sounds like you have a problem with perverts, not transgender people. So you should focus on inhibiting or punishing the perverts for their actions. Rather than transgender people.

Some drop kicks exploit the welfare system, that doesn't mean we should scrap the welfare system.

What's to stop a man from going into a women's toilet currently?
Do people think that if we let transgender people into the women's toilet, that suddenly peering in over the toilet cubicle will have to be tolerated??

This is a very complex issue, and there are plenty of things I'm having a hard time getting my head around. But the toilet fear-mongering is not something we should accept or propagate.
There is as much linking perverts to transgender, as there is linking pedophilia to homosexuality... And a lot of the time it's done by the same people.
Of course, they are trying to link transgender to pedophilia as well...

People like Caitlyn Jenner shouldn't have to use the men's toilets and stand up to piss, just because some creeps might try and take advantage of the situation. Punish the creeps, not the innocent.

I'm gender fluid, which means I am often 48 different genders within the space of 3 hours. I recently enrolled into grade prep because i identify as a 6 year old girl. Looking forward to going through primary school again.

Your need to repeat primary school aside, it's hard to want to engage with you at all if you think the whole thing is a joke.

 

[Lethality]

Well it sounds like you have a problem with perverts, not transgender people. So you should focus on inhibiting or punishing the perverts for their actions. Rather than transgender people.

You're assuming the transgender people actually want all of this, when a lot of them don't. So it wouldn't be punishing transgenders as a whole.

Your need to repeat primary school aside, it's hard to want to engage with you at all if you think the whole thing is a joke.

Not a joke, there are grown men who want to be recognised as young girls. You would need a way to confirm that their wishes are genuine.

 

[CM86]

Who says the transgender people actually want this? A lot of them don't.

I don't know.
What I do know is trying to link negative/fear-mongering aspects to a people when there is no link, is not something that we should accept or propagate.

 

[igon value]

Well it sounds like you have a problem with perverts, not transgender people. So you should focus on inhibiting or punishing the perverts for their actions. Rather than transgender people.

Some drop kicks exploit the welfare system, that doesn't mean we should scrap the welfare system.

What's to stop a man from going into a women's toilet currently?
Do people think that if we let transgender people into the women's toilet, that suddenly peering in over the toilet cubicle will have to be tolerated??

This is a very complex issue, and there are plenty of things I'm having a hard time getting my head around. But the toilet fear-mongering is not something we should accept or propagate.
There is as much linking perverts to transgender, as there is linking pedophilia to homosexuality... And a lot of the time it's done by the same people.
Of course, they are trying to link transgender to pedophilia as well...

People like Caitlyn Jenner shouldn't have to use the men's toilets and stand up to piss, just because some creeps might try and take advantage of the situation. Punish the creeps, not the innocent.

How do we determine who is a pervert? After the fact? These safe spaces for women were created with the idea of pre-emptively keeping perverts out. But it's not just about safe spaces, but defining the essential characters of womanhood being grounded in biological sex, not gender identity.

I point again to the reasoning of the Woman's Liberation Front:

When discrimination against women and girls can no longer be attached to the category of sex, females as a class lose the ability to contest their systemic mistreatment. For example, a Texas woman claimed she was discriminated against on the basis of sex in being fired from her job because she asked for a place to pump breastmilk at work. The federal judge ruled that because men can sometimes lactate, her discrimination was not based on sex.

When sex-based legal protections do not necessarily refer to any material state of being male or female, but instead to an internal feeling of “gender identity,” the category of sex becomes meaningless. Lactation becomes something that certain individuals just happen to do more than others for some reason. And women’s and girls’ sports teams appear to have no material basis for being separated from male competitors.​

http://womensliberationfront.org/wolf-v-u-s/#qe-faq-2186

What is womanhood? Is it an essential nature of objective reality or simply just a subjective experience based on feelings? If it is simply just a feeling, then how can being female be discriminated against? How can females be systematically oppressed and victimised if one can choose or choose not to be female?

Catering for a very small percentage of the population at the cost of a much larger part, who themselves have been long oppressed is a ridiculous inversion of progressive values. You are sacrificing hard fought gains made by an oppressed majority over many years in the interests of a fringe minority.

 

[Lethality]

I don't know.
What I do know is trying to link negative/fear-mongering aspects to a people when there is no link, is not something that we should accept or propagate.

I'm not suggesting that all transexuals are perverts if that's what you're saying. In terms of linking negativity with a group, that goes the other way round as well, as anyone who questions laws around transexuals is immediately labelled transphobic. There is a lot to question, but some people would have us just accept the dogma and their justification is that feelings may be hurt, or that groups may be villified.

 

[CM86]

Catering for a very small percentage of the population at the cost of a much larger part, who themselves have been long oppressed is a ridiculous inversion of progressive values. You are sacrificing hard fought gains made by an oppressed majority over many years in the interests of a fringe minority.

Due to an even smaller hypothetical percentage, of perverts who would take advantage of the situation.

I don't think it's an easy solution, and I don't have a solution.
But my point is that there is no actual link to being transgender and being a pervert, so we shouldn't act like there is one.

A person born a man but now living as a woman, is not oppressing women by using the female bathroom.


We could make transgender bathrooms. But I see them as just as crap as needing homosexual bathrooms.

What's the worst that could happen, in letting a trans woman use the women's bathroom?

 

[igon value]

Due to an even smaller hypothetical percentage, of perverts who would take advantage of the situation.

I don't think it's an easy solution, and I don't have a solution.
But my point is that there is no actual link to being transgender and being a pervert, so we shouldn't act like there is one.

A person born a man but now living as a woman, is not oppressing women by using the female bathroom.


We could make transgender bathrooms. But I see them as just as crap as needing homosexual bathrooms.

What's the worst that could happen, in letting a trans woman use the women's bathroom?

It's not just about toilets - it's about woman's only dorms, women's only sporting clubs, women's only social clubs, women's only gyms, women's only festivals.

I think you know what the worst that could happen is. If your contention is that's always a risk anyway, then the whole notion of women's only anything is a nonsense and men shouldn't be prohibited from anything.

 

[igon value]

What's the worst that could happen

Err this:

But one of Ponting's victims has described the fact her attacker was allowed a sex change as "diabolical".

She told the Sun newspaper: "There are not enough words to describe him and the evil he has done.

"It is diabolical they have allowed him to have a sex change and diabolical that he could be freed this year.

"He may have changed physically but his brain is still the same."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39337805

Worth noting - most M-F transsexuals in prison are in there for violence against women (while a man).

Further down the page of the previously linked

John Pilley, also known as Jane Anne, made legal history in 1999 when he became the first inmate in England and Wales to be granted permission for a sex change operation.

Pilley was serving life for the attempted murder and kidnapping of a woman taxi driver.

 

[CM86]

I was asking for the worst that could happen, by letting trans people use bathrooms of the gender they live as.

Err this:



http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39337805

Worth noting - most M-F transsexuals in prison are in there for violence against women (while a man).

Further down the page of the previously linked

These are criminals who also happen to be transgender.
Not criminals because they are transgender.


Yes it's a very complex and complicated situation.
But the narrative of allowing transgender women into women's bathroom is dangerous... is the same argument there used to be, for a need for homosexual toilets.

The danger of a homosexual man using the same public bathroom as your son...

It's an argument built on ignorance, and maintained through ignorance.

It's not just about toilets - it's about woman's only dorms, women's only sporting clubs, women's only social clubs, women's only gyms, women's only festivals.

I think you know what the worst that could happen is. If your contention is that's always a risk anyway, then the whole notion of women's only anything is a nonsense and men shouldn't be prohibited from anything.

Which are the parts I'm saying I don't have my head around, because they are very complex.
Which is why I said in my first post "This is a very complex issue, and there are plenty of things I'm having a hard time getting my head around. But the toilet fear-mongering is not something we should accept or propagate.".

 

[Lethality]

For those who think this is solely a conservative argument, the Women's Liberation Front in the US recently sued the US government to reverse the changes to Title IX.

You can read their reasoning here:

http://womensliberationfront.org/wolf-v-u-s/#qe-faq-2186

It's great to watch them eat themselves. The Women's March was also labelled transphobic.

 

[igon value]

I was asking for the worst that could happen, by letting trans people use bathrooms of the gender they live as.

This thread is not solely about toilets, so I'm not sure why that's your focus.

These are criminals who also happen to be transgender.
Not criminals because they are transgender.

No one said otherwise. They are criminals who became transsexuals either while in prison or not long after committing crimes against women, who then insist on being moved to women's prisons. Why do we keep women in separate prisons, away from men?

Yes it's a very complex and complicated situation.
But the narrative of allowing transgender women into women's bathroom is dangerous... is the same argument there used to be, for a need for homosexual toilets.

The danger of a homosexual man using the same public bathroom as your son...

It's an argument built on ignorance, and maintained through ignorance.

It isn't the same argument at all. Toilets (and other spaces) are already segregated by sex, mostly in the interests of protecting women from male predation.

The last time I went backpacking, some hostels had women only dorms. Should men be allowed access to this space?

 

[igon value]

It's great to watch them eat themselves. The Women's March was also labelled transphobic.

There is a specific term for feminists who reject transgender politics: trans-exclusionary radical feminists or TERFs.

 

[Power Raid]

Sex and Gender should be regarded to the biology you are born to. Regardless of any future body modifications or any later life ideas. In regards to dating, people have a right to know whether they're having sex with the same sex or the opposite sex.

It depends on purpose.

but to be honest, who gives a shit if someone recognises themselves as a male, female, other, in between or nothing. That's their privilege and it is also other's privilege to recognise them as they see fit.

Putting people in categories helps our basic understanding and ability to rationalise. For this purpose the need is practical and thus simple categorisation is all that is required.

For emotional purposes the need is different and thus a more personal view and understanding is required.


oh and for the record, I would like to know if the chick I'm about to have sex with is a woman or was formerly known as Bruce.

 

[igon value]

It depends on purpose.

but to be honest, who gives a shit if someone recognises themselves as a male, female, other, in between or nothing. That's their privilege and it is also other's privilege to recognise them as they see fit.

People can comport themselves as whoever they see fit.

There is no reason why others should be forced to accept their assumed identity.

 

[Todman]

But you make counter-arguments. What informs that? Why is exclusion good and inclusion bad? I'll go first; inclusion is good because we're all part of human society no matter what we wear and what colour our skin/gender is or what we want it to be. If people feel included they're much more likely to have a positive mindset regarding society and societal problems.

Maybe it's their way of attention seeking. A way to stand out in a crowd.

 

[Todman]

I'm gender fluid, which means I am often 48 different genders within the space of 3 hours. I recently enrolled into grade prep because i identify as a 6 year old girl. Looking forward to going through primary school again.

Does your mother* cut the crusts off your sandwiches?

* person who co-habitats with you who may or may not related to you.

 

[Todman]

Not a joke, there are grown men who want to be recognised as young girls. You would need a way to confirm that their wishes are genuine.

I've decided to go the other way. Where is my old age pension, health care card and other seniors discounts?

 

[cannot]

why not make a third transgender loos?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

And the arguments of igon value, cannot, and others of their leanings is revealed to be flimsy and without real substance. And so they descend into silliness and mockery.

It was actually cool when you were trying to debate this as adults. We may not have convinced each other of anything but at least the back-and-forth was valid.

This though? This is just bullshit.

 

[cannot]

And the arguments of igon value, Todman, cannot, and others of their leanings is revealed to be flimsy and without real substance. And so they descend into silliness and mockery.

It was actually cool when you were trying to debate this as adults. We may not have convinced each other of anything but at least the back-and-forth was valid.

This though? This is just bullshit.

why not make a 3rd dunny?

would create jobs

people laughed at wheel chair access once too