Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[William Wonka]

How many people have done that?

Miley Cyrus
Demi Levato
Grimes
Rose McGowan

Androgyny is hardly a new concept either.
Its just millennial sooks that need to announce every ******* thought that comes into their heads.

If Reed or Bowie felt like wearing a dress they wore a ******* dress, they didn't issue a press release thanking everyone for their love and support.

 

[Lethality]

That's it for Lauren Hubbard.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Concepts are defined as abstract ideas or general notions that occur in the mind, in speech, or in thought. They are understood to be the fundamental building blocks of thoughts and beliefs. They play an important role in all aspects of cognition.

This is correct, biological sex is not an abstract idea, notion, thought or concept.

 

[Chief]

Miley Cyrus
Demi Levato
Grimes
Rose McGowan

Androgyny is hardly a new concept either.
Its just millennial sooks that need to announce every ******* thought that comes into their heads.

If Reed or Bowie felt like wearing a dress they wore a ******* dress, they didn't issue a press release thanking everyone for their love and support.

Interesting. It’s not something I take notice of. You know their personal motivations?

 

[Maddhew]

There are some that will say that Hubbard losing proves that allowing transgender women who fulfil the requirement to compete does not provide an unfair advantage.

After watching that, It is clear that a 43 year old talentless, poorly trained transgender woman can make an olympic final against opponents in their 20s.

This should be the end of the experiment.

 

[Carringbush2010]

For what it's worth I'm in the 'biology and gender role are seperate' camp. At birth you can be one of three things - male, female or on extremely rare occasions intersex or hermaphroditic. What you become afterwards depends on how you're brought up.

Biological science itself has no agenda - it is not right-wing nor left-wing. It's just cold, hard fact. Results and outcomes are what they are in science but its how they're dressed up after the fact and presented to the world that affects peoples' perceptions. Ditto biological sex and gender.

How this is even in contention with some people is bizarre.

 

[William Wonka]

Interesting. It’s not something I take notice of. You know their personal motivations?

You can only ever speculate on other peoples motivations.
Normally however self interest and greed are leading the charge and I see no reason to doubt that's the case here.

Either way if I was trans and watching them crap on about the process of healing and self reflective work that has led to them deciding to change their pronouns I would be inclined to tell them to go * they/them selves.

 

[owen87]

After watching that, It is clear that a 43 year old talentless, poorly trained transgender woman can make an olympic final against opponents in their 20s.

Laurel Hubbard - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hubbard set New Zealand junior records in 1998 in the newly established M105+ division with snatch 135 kg, clean & jerk 170 kg, total 300 kg

Not sure 'poorly trained' is what you're going for here.

Olympic Lifting at that level requires a significant amount of technique. An average male might be stronger than the average female, but there's no universe in which an average male is snatching 135kg overhead without a significant amount of training and technique work.

But yes, the idea that someone who was apparently a talented junior male lifter, could leave the sport for a decade or longer and come back in their 40s as a female at a level commesurate with an Olympic medalist is a fair point of criticism. Hubbard's PB total looks to be 285kg which would have won a Silver. That Li Wenwen is miles ahead with a 320kg total though (and a PB of 335kg!).

 

[Suspense]

This is correct, biological sex is not an abstract idea, notion, thought or concept.

Every act of speaking begins with an act of thinking. Building on this intuitive idea, in Speaking, Pim Levelt proposed that the first step in planning an utterance is conceptualisation – the preverbal apprehension of the broad content at the core of the speaker’s communicative intention. Conceptualization forms the input to later processes of linguistic formulation and articulation and eventually results in a linguistic string (Levelt, 1989; see also Bock & Levelt, 1994; Bock, Irwin, & Davidson, 2004; cf. Lashley, 1951; Paul, 1970; Wundt, 1970).

On this model, the level of conceptualisation contains a highly structured package of information (also called message) that the speaker wants to convey. This package of information draws from basic categories that the human mind uses to make sense of the world of experience, such as persons, objects, events, actions, states, times, places, directions and manners.

https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10147284


TLDR: The mere thought or utterance of the phrase 'biological sex' postulates it as a concept.

 

[Suspense]

That's it for Lauren Hubbard.

Ruined my multi. You all said she was a sure thing.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Every act of speaking begins with an act of thinking. Building on this intuitive idea, in Speaking, Pim Levelt proposed that the first step in planning an utterance is conceptualisation – the preverbal apprehension of the broad content at the core of the speaker’s communicative intention. Conceptualization forms the input to later processes of linguistic formulation and articulation and eventually results in a linguistic string (Levelt, 1989; see also Bock & Levelt, 1994; Bock, Irwin, & Davidson, 2004; cf. Lashley, 1951; Paul, 1970; Wundt, 1970).

On this model, the level of conceptualisation contains a highly structured package of information (also called message) that the speaker wants to convey. This package of information draws from basic categories that the human mind uses to make sense of the world of experience, such as persons, objects, events, actions, states, times, places, directions and manners.

https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10147284


TLDR: The mere thought or utterance of the phrase 'biological sex' postulates it as a concept.

The mere thought? So coz it's a thought by extension that now constitutes as a concept? So whether or not biological sex is a concept or a by-product of evolution is arbitered by one's perception. So the arbitrary can change from person to person.

That's all the above is, a long winded way of saying 'yeah whatever you think it is' or 'you can have it both ways, contradictions allowed'.

Yeah nah, that's not gonna fly at the pub test.

Anyways you're not going to be convinced so I'll leave it there.

 

[Suspense]

The mere thought? So coz it's a thought by extension that now constitutes as a concept? So whether or not biological sex is a concept or a by-product of evolution is arbitered by one's perception.

It's not either/or. It is a concept that describes the trait relating to an individual's reproductive function.

In order to think about or speaking meaningfully about what 'biological sex' is - you need to conceptualise it. This is the basics of psycholinguistics.

It's OK to admit that you don't understand it.

 

[Lethality]

Ruined my multi. You all said she was a sure thing.

Id still say it's unfair. Women's competition is now an acceptable level of artificially regulated hormone rather than a natural competition between biological females. It would be more competitively sound for trans people to compete as their biological sex and accept that their gender reassignment can affect their sporting success, just like other life decisions might.

 

[Carringbush2010]

It's not either/or. It is a concept that describes the trait relating to an individual's reproductive function.

In order to think about or speaking meaningfully about what 'biological sex' is - you need to conceptualise it. This is the basics of psycholinguistics.

It's OK to admit that you don't understand it.

You couldn't help yourself could ya?

No one needs to conceptualise biological sex, that is not a requirement.

It IS OR IS NOT A CONCEPT you can't have it both ways. IT > IS < one or the other, and it is not up for debate no matter how much the ABS or any other body wants to write contradictory articles to try and accommodate what cannot be accommodated.

Anyway, it's ok to admit that you can't understand that.

I'll leave it there, if you must have the last word to convince yourself you have superior intellect and therefore can have it both ways then you go knock yourself out sunshine. I'll enjoy the humour.

 

[Suspense]

You couldn't help yourself could ya?

No one needs to conceptualise biological sex, that is not a requirement.

Linguistically it is. That's how language and cognition works.

It IS OR IS NOT A CONCEPT you can't have it both ways. IT > IS < one or the other, and it is not up for debate no matter how much the ABS or any other body wants to write contradictory articles to try and accommodate what cannot be accommodated.

Have it both ways? I've never argued that 'biological sex' is not a concept.

Anyway, it's ok to admit that you can't understand that.

I'll leave it there, if you must have the last word to convince yourself you have superior intellect and therefore can have it both ways then you go knock yourself out sunshine. I'll enjoy the humour.

No worries, [insert sarcastic vocative]

 

[Hamingja]

There are some that will say that Hubbard losing proves that allowing transgender women who fulfil the requirement to compete does not provide an unfair advantage.

After watching that, It is clear that a 43 year old talentless, poorly trained transgender woman can make an olympic final against opponents in their 20s.

This should be the end of the experiment.

At the end of the day no one really cares about women's weightlifting.

It will get real when someone does it in tennis.

A good average pro player like John Millman could come out and say I want to be known as Jenny from now on and scoop up millions and millions of dollars on the WTA.

 

[Eagle Wrath]

At the end of the day no one really cares about women's weightlifting.

It will get real when someone does it in tennis.

A good average pro player like John Millman could come out and say I want to be known as Jenny from now on and scoop up millions and millions of dollars on the WTA.

It will get real in the next olympics, or perhaps the one after, when women are a thing of the past and we have men in most events.
Lets hope they dont go in swimming or beach volleyball. We will have to look away.

 

[Maddhew]

It will get real in the next olympics, or perhaps the one after, when women are a thing of the past and we have men in most events.
Lets hope they dont go in swimming or beach volleyball. We will have to look away.

What do they wear? do they need to cover their breasts if they don't have any?

 

[Gough]

It will get real in the next olympics, or perhaps the one after, when women are a thing of the past and we have men in most events.
Lets hope they dont go in swimming or beach volleyball. We will have to look away.

You can get your plums chopped off to chase sporting glory first.

 

[owen87]

You can get your plums chopped off to chase sporting glory first.

Don't even need to do that.

 

[Chief]

You can get your plums chopped off to chase sporting glory first.

I think the Germans get a lifetime supply of beer for a gold. So first thing is to become a German citizen.

THEN get the secateurs out.

 

[Gough]

I think the Germans get a lifetime supply of beer for a gold. So first thing is to become a German citizen.

THEN get the secateurs out.

Definitions are important here. Are they talking Oliver Reed lifetime or Tom Hafey lifetime?

 

[Chief]

Definitions are important here. Are they talking Oliver Reed lifetime or Tom Hafey lifetime?

I think it would quickly go from one to the other.

 

[Frank Bunn]

It's not either/or. It is a concept that describes the trait relating to an individual's reproductive function.

In order to think about or speaking meaningfully about what 'biological sex' is - you need to conceptualise it. This is the basics of psycholinguistics.

So once you have conceptualised biological sex and discovered that it's a trait relating to an individual's reproductive function then where are you going with this?

It seems like postmodernist word salad to avoid using the terms male and female. Terms that have real meaning and consequences in the animals, plants and in humanity. You can trace the differences down to the chromosomes.

 

[Suspense]

So once you have conceptualised biological sex and discovered that it's a trait relating to an individual's reproductive function then where are you going with this?

It is a concept that is related to, but different, to gender. That's all.

It seems like postmodernist word salad to avoid using the terms male and female. Terms that have real meaning and consequences in the animals, plants and in humanity. You can trace the differences down to the chromosomes.

Who has suggested they not be used? They should be used where relevant.