Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Square Peg]

They are reporting that it is an injustice to the teacher being sacked for not using the preferred student pronouns. This is wrong.

By choosing to single out this student by not using their preferred pronoun he has forced an injustice on the student.
There has been no injustice to the teacher, he wanted to make a stand at the expense of a student as was rightfully sacked.

I can only refer you to my earlier reply, I have nothing to add

If it was me I would have just used the preferred pronoun of the student if asked to do so. It's what I do in my life, it's polite and also the path of least resistance. He has reasons for not wanting to do that which I respect, and meant he tried an alternative, using their preferred name but no pronoun. Yet that wasn't enough, and he's sacked. So who's the absolutionist here? The person insisting every person does everything precisely how they want, it would seem at face value. And when not everyone agrees, push for a disproportionate punishment of the naysayers.

 

[Chief]

I didn't post it

So what is your point?

 

[Slartibartfast]

I can only refer you to my earlier reply, I have nothing to add

He has no right to treat students differently based on what sex the student identifies as. None at all.

As for your previous question , this is why that article is so wrong. They identified the teacher as the victim which is 100% wrong.

The student is the victim.

 

[the big lebowski]

What is "the science of gender" exactly?

Chromosomes, reproduction, reality…..

Hey, if someone wants to change their gender with drugs and surgery, because it helps them fit in with society, more power to you. I don’t give a ****. Love who you want, marry who you want, dress how you want.

But this militant view that everyone else is obligated to conform to your reality when it contrasts their own is bizarre.

 

[Square Peg]

He has no right to treat students differently based on what sex the student identifies as. None at all.

As for your previous question , this is why that article is so wrong. They identified the teacher as the victim which is 100% wrong.

The student is the victim.

He refrained from using any pronouns at all in the student's presence. He used the student's preferred name when addressing them. I might think he's tried hard to reconcile his beliefs without singling out the student. But yes, of course, he is 100% wrong. That's how it works with puritans and absolutists

 

[Slartibartfast]

He refrained from using any pronouns at all in the student's presence. He used the student's preferred name when addressing them. I would think he's tried his best to reconcile his beliefs without singling out the student. But yes, of course, he is 100% wrong. That's how it works with puritans and absolutists

No he discriminated against the student.

He uses pronouns for other students but selectively chooses not for the student who has changed their identity.


I think you are being disingenuous with your argument, he clearly singled the student out the student due to the sexual identity. That is not in dispute, you cant treat students differently based on how they identify.

He has not tried his best , he HAS singled out the student for the benefit of his own beliefs.

 

[Chief]

But this militant view that everyone else is obligated to conform to your reality when it contrasts their own is bizarre.

How do you manifest this refusal to recognise trans people?

 

[Square Peg]

No he discriminated against the student.

He uses pronouns for other students but selectively chooses not for the student who has changed their identity.


I think you are being disingenuous with your argument, he clearly singled the student out the student due to the sexual identity. That is not in dispute, you cant treat students differently based on how they identify.

He has not tried his best , he HAS singled out the student for the benefit of his own beliefs.

You can think whatever you want, but there's nothing in this article to say he went out of his way to victimise a student based on his beliefs. Not acquiescing to every demand made on him, and trying to find a compromise, is not singling out. It's how most of us work our way through life.

 

[the big lebowski]

How do you manifest this refusal to recognise trans people?

I don’t refuse to recognise trans people.

I had a funny chat with a transgender lady who served me at Dan Murthy’s when I was buying a Xmas present.

I discuss former north coach Dani laidley with people regularly.

So when you ask “How do you manifest this refusal to recognise trans people?”….
In the immortal words of Will McEvoy

 

[Falcon3518]

So what? It's the same article you quoted to me. It was an an article posted to prove you are wrong when you made a claim to the effect that there is no such thing as cancel culture and people losing their jobs over misgendering. In this case it's worse, as this guy it seems has lost he's job not for what he said, but what he wouldn't say.

This is exactly what Jordan Peterson has touched on. He said it is the first time in human history where the law is forcing you TO SAY something rather than WHAT NOT TO SAY. I’m not sure if this is 100% correct but I don’t seem to have read anything that proves otherwise.

I feel a lot of people here are coming from the right place but being ‘militantly moral’ is not the right way to go about it.


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[Chief]

this militant view that everyone else is obligated to conform to your reality when it contrasts their own is bizarre.

Then what is this about?

 

[Slartibartfast]

You can think whatever you want, but there's nothing in this article to say he went out of his way to victimise a student based on his beliefs. Not acquiescing to every demand made on him, and trying to find a compromise, is not singling out. It's how most of us work our way through life.

The teacher refused to use the appropriate pronoun. He did go out of his way and deliberately singled out this student .

It‘s simple, he discriminated against the student.
You can wear whatever blinkers you like but when you have a teacher treating students differently based on how they identify that is discrimatory.

Thems the rules, teacher was rightfully booted out of school.

 

[Shadow89]

I do get a chuckle out of those that get angry at others denying the science of climate change, whilst simultaneously themselves denying the science of gender.

Chromosomes, reproduction, reality…..

Hey, if someone wants to change their gender with drugs and surgery, because it helps them fit in with society, more power to you. I don’t give a ****. Love who you want, marry who you want, dress how you want.

But this militant view that everyone else is obligated to conform to your reality when it contrasts their own is bizarre.

Well this is definitely one of the all time faux pars on here, lol. Calls something reality, and then makes up their own version of it to suit their own lack of understanding - classic.

I believe you mean the science of sex. Gender is socially constructed. I.e. the clothes we wear, women routinely wearing makeup and shaving their legs, waxing their upper lip and arm pits, men not wearing makeup, growing facial hair and not shaving legs or armpits unless athletes, boys = blue/girls = pink etc.

I do admit, I just got a chuckle at your lack of understanding between the difference between gender and sex - and then trying to 'gotcha' people by comparing climate change and gender as sciences - when one is a science and one is a social element. I learned that in tenth grade 17 years ago before I went to uni. I guess you missed that class, hey?

Here is literally the first thing that came up when searching 'difference between sex and gender':

What is gender? What is sex?​

Infographic version​

PDF (302 KB)
'Sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, despite having different meanings:

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.

What is gender? What is sex? - CIHR

...

cihr-irsc.gc.ca

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I do get a chuckle out of those that get angry at others denying the science of climate change, whilst simultaneously themselves denying the science of gender.

Would you hazard a guess at the size of this previously-unidentified demographic?

 

[.Shotties.]

Chromosomes, reproduction, reality…..

You're talking about biological sex, not gender, which is the set of social constructs around those sexes.

What does the "science of gender" say about the number of sexes according to you?

 

[.Shotties.]

That's not what the article says, so I assume you have gotten your information from another source, can you enlighten us?

Have you done no further looking into this particular case and are basing your view on this on one article from the Heritage Foundation?

"Vlaming worked with the district for seven years. The decision to fire the teacher came after a virtual reality exercise in the classroom, where Vlaming called out, "Don't let her hit the wall!" as the transgender student walked in that direction, the lawsuit states."

So even after making a big deal about how he avoided using pronouns and whatever, he still misgendered the student. You can say it was a slip of the tongue, but if you go out of your way to refuse to acknowledge a student and claim you're compromising in doing so, you lose a lot of leeway.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Stoked that my comment that had nothing to do with trans people was moved into this thread. Not quite sure how a mod even decided that was the appropriate course of action. Would have preferred the comment simply be deleted if it was so far from the original topic.

 

[Schneebly11]

This is exactly what Jordan Peterson has touched on. He said it is the first time in human history where the law is forcing you TO SAY something rather than WHAT NOT TO SAY.

Actually it’s not. There’s no law forcing you to use a person’s preferred pronouns. You can refer to them by their name if you wish or structure your speech so you don’t use their preferred pronouns if that’s what you wish.

The law is classifying calling (I’ll use a transwoman as the example) as “he” as offensive speech. So it’s actually classifying the speech as what NOT to say, not what you’re being FORCED TO say.

Just like how you can’t call a gay person, a woman, a member of a different race/ethnic group an offensive slur, you can’t call a transgender person by their birth pronouns as it’s a similar slur. Although you may not see it this way calling a transwoman “he” is like calling a gay person the 3 letter “f” word or a black person the “n” word.

 

[4cunningTonneTruck]

This is exactly what Jordan Peterson has touched on.

Oh god please tell me this forum hasn't resorted to quoting Jordan Benzos Peterson

 

[Schneebly11]

Oh god please tell me this forum hasn't resorted to quoting Jordan Benzos Peterson

Strong correlation between anti transgender comments and Peterson fanboy-ism

 

[4cunningTonneTruck]

Strong correlation between anti transgender comments and Peterson fanboy-ism

I wonder why

 

[Cap]

Strong correlation between anti transgender comments and Peterson fanboy-ism

Why is it mainly men who get their knickers in a knot though.

For such a small issue that really has little impact on most of us, it seems to get a disproportionate amount of angst

 

[Gralin]

Why is it mainly men who get there knickers in a knot though.

For such a small issue that really has little impact on most of us, it seems to get a disproportionate amount of angst

I mean it's mostly men who have issues with queer people in general, same for feminism, same for anything that doesn't elevate cis het masculinity to the top of the pile

 

[Roobs321]

The simple 'don't be a prick' rule. If you innocently make a blunder you might be at a 1% risk of punishment, social faux pas at worst. If you are an arseh*le and intentionally, repeatedly misgender a fellow arseh*le, then you'll maybe get your just deserts and become one of those culture war clickbait acts like a baker or teacher. It's only a fearful minefield to those in bad faith. If in such a mistake you are more worried about your own supposed persecution rather than being sensitive to their feelings then yes, you're probably a prick. And if you fuss abstractly over pronouns then it's probably a sign that you've never had someone close to you dealing with this before (not uncommon). If it is someone you are more than acquainted with who cares about the connection, they'll probably understand your personal strengths and weaknesses and give you some leeway anyway.

Many trans people dgaf about pronouns, and usually don't want to make a big deal about it, as long as you're trying and not being too embarrassing it's just an imperfect moment and everyone moves on, even if it cuts deep on occasion they'll be understanding. Getting it right is akin to a big smile, it'll make them feel good. It's also not a common situation. For instance, I've never been in a situation to use 'they/them', and I'm sure it would feel awkward initially, but I'd still give it a go out of respect for their universal human dignity. When in doubt, use their name, a more general group term, a pronoun might not be necessary, or (in private if possible) ask that awkward once-off question about preferred pronouns. Those that do make a point about pronouns (which includes cis allies) probably have it advertised somewhere in bio, or will be 'presenting' as such. Repeatedly referring to their being trans (even positively) can be a bit similar to misgender, for a lot of non-nb trans people being 'trans' is a temporal stage they are trying to remedy, like a medical condition, it's not necessarily a lifelong identification like being gay. If they no longer talk much about being transgender then that might be a sign to move on from the subject of their being a transman or transwoman. Failing to do so might consequently see you drifting apart for not seeing them. Whilst the times have changed somewhat over the last decade or so, that still applies for many. Being nb is inherently othering from the binary, but a lot of trans people are binary and (if not too externally bedeviled) attempt to move on.

Trans people and non-transphobes can accidentally misgender at times, no one's perfect and hardly anyone will expect you to be perfect. In this type of overblown newsdrama, the issue is typically with the froward person involved, not the blunder itself. If you aren't a transphobe you have nothing to fear, and if you're new to interacting with trans people and a bit unsure then that's cool. If you stereotype them and are paranoid about the pronoun issue then you are probably also paranoid about deceptive dating and bathroom use and related overblown talking points. Australian culture is also very easygoing, so it's probably not a bad place to be if you feel prone to making these sorts of mistakes.

Essentially, if you decide to make a big deal about mistaking their pronouns, they might make a big deal about it too. The reaction is not disproportionate, only from the vantage of your sense of privilege.

 

[Schneebly11]

Why is it mainly men who get their knickers in a knot though.

For such a small issue that really has little impact on most of us, it seems to get a disproportionate amount of angst

Because the media they consume tells them they need to fear and hate these things.

Normal people don’t care about a drag queen reading to someone else’s kids, or who marries who, or what a woman does with her body, but the right is told to think those things are an existential threat to their existence.